Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Nedwin]

For those who dont want to break their keyboard, trying to show us SUCH great arguments:

Mega-Guide: HOW TO KILL ROLLER:

1. Detect it. (Very hard, need practice)

2. Aim at roller before it rolled to you.

3. Click left mouse button (Need practice too)

4. Miss.

5. Become staggered.

6. RAGE LVL OVER 9000

7. Go to forum and ask for nerf.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Nedwin

[AvatarOfWar]

I am a noob. When I first saw this thread, I thought it was talking about the little rollerballs that stick to you and explode. I didn't see what the rage was about; they're nearly harmless. But today, I saw the big rollerballs for the first time and thought "okay, lets see what these things really do". And it turns out, they were even less of a threat than the little ones. They're easy to shoot, their stumble doesn't last long enough to get you into trouble, and if you happen to get several of them you can just run down a corridor 30 meters to line them all up for shooting. I even had 4 circling me at one point, managing to stumble me a few times in a row with greneer firing at me, and it still wasn't a threat.

I've played this game for a little over a week. I only solo, which makes it one heck of a struggle. I fail to see how these rollerballs are even worth a single rage.

[MJ12]

For those who dont want to break their keyboard, trying to show us SUCH great arguments:

Mega-Guide: HOW TO KILL ROLLER:

1. Detect it. (Very hard, need practice)

2. Aim at roller before it rolled to you.

3. Click left mouse button (Need practice too)

4. Miss.

5. Become staggered.

6. RAGE LVL OVER 9000

7. Go to forum and ask for nerf.

 

You know, the endless "if you shoot it it dies" spiel your ilk puts out is entertaining because it just proves the point of how annoying Grinders are. They're so annoying your "megaguides" are all "well don't get hit" forgetting that this isn't a one hitpoint shmup where getting hit once is supposed to put you into stunlock town. Remind me when this game became a bullet hell shmup where you're supposed to avoid every enemy attack 100% of the time or die?

 

Ah right, never.

 

 

I am a noob. When I first saw this thread, I thought it was talking about the little rollerballs that stick to you and explode. I didn't see what the rage was about; they're nearly harmless. But today, I saw the big rollerballs for the first time and thought "okay, lets see what these things really do". And it turns out, they were even less of a threat than the little ones. They're easy to shoot, their stumble doesn't last long enough to get you into trouble, and if you happen to get several of them you can just run down a corridor 30 meters to line them all up for shooting. I even had 4 circling me at one point, managing to stumble me a few times in a row with greneer firing at me, and it still wasn't a threat. I've played this game for a little over a week. I only solo, which makes it one heck of a struggle. I fail to see how these rollerballs are even worth a single rage.

 

This is just because you got lucky, since Grinders have terrible AI and sometimes bug out and refuse to actually attack you, instead running into something and getting stuck. I've been stunlocked by as few as two Grinders. It says something very depressing about the enemy design when the enemy is approximately infinitely more fun to fight when its AI bugs out and it doesn't do anything than when it's doing something.

[greymalken]

If folks in this thread spent as much time learning the many counters to rollers as they did typing and complaining, they'd have a trophy rack full already... just sayin :)

[PaperAlien]

adapt or perish

Sounds like you couldn't adapt to the game being made less frustrating for people who don't have your hardcore serious business aiming skills. The irony.

[Nedwin]

You know, the endless "if you shoot it it dies" spiel your ilk puts out is entertaining because it just proves the point of how annoying Grinders are. They're so annoying your "megaguides" are all "well don't get hit" forgetting that this isn't a one hitpoint shmup where getting hit once is supposed to put you into stunlock town. Remind me when this game became a bullet hell shmup where you're supposed to avoid every enemy attack 100% of the time or die?

 

Ah right, never.

 

 

 

This is just because you got lucky, since Grinders have terrible AI and sometimes bug out and refuse to actually attack you, instead running into something and getting stuck. I've been stunlocked by as few as two Grinders. It says something very depressing about the enemy design when the enemy is approximately infinitely more fun to fight when its AI bugs out and it doesn't do anything than when it's doing something.

oh. my. god.

you better go and learn how no to become stunlock. Trust me, it will be faster than writing that S#&$load of text on forum.

[MJ12]

If folks in this thread spent as much time learning the many counters to rollers as they did typing and complaining, they'd have a trophy rack full already... just sayin :)

 

You're right, there are plenty of counters. That doesn't make them a good enemy. Because almost all the counters are either AI exploits, using AoE/ultimate moves that cost randomly replenished energy (and the fact that these basic, low-end enemies in pairs or trios are forcing you to dump Ultimates is hilariously bad design), or essentially going "learn 2 aim", which really isn't an argument since not everyone who plays a shooter should be required to have Quake Pro Gamer level accuracy.

 

And all this for a basic enemy which spawns in numbers and isn't even remotely fun to fight, with no detail or animation. If they replaced Grinders with some kind of Grineer superheavy miniboss, the game would probably simultaneously be:

 

1. Harder

 

2. Way the hell more entertaining.

[MJ12]

oh. my. god.

you better go and learn how no to become stunlock. Trust me, it will be faster than writing that S#&$load of text on forum.

 

"Never make mistakes ever"? Well sure Nedwin. The moment I upload my puny error-prone meat-brain into a flawless robot body I'll take that advice. Of course, being a flawless robot I'd have to exterminate the human race as well, and I think I'll put "guys who supported Grinders" on the list of guys to exterminate first.

 

Because that's the point. One mistake even vaguely around Grinders (and these mistakes can be as arbitrary as 'was looking in the direction of one Grinder as three more sneak up on you', or 'got bad spawn luck') and you have a non-zero chance of being stunlocked for a long time. Maybe you'll die. Maybe you won't. It won't be fun either way.

 

And no, it's not "faster than writing this s**tload of text on this forum" because this took about a minute while reducing Grinders to 'frustrating' from 'extremely frustrating' took a lot more than that. Maybe it might be to someone with poor English skills.

[Sniktch]

Moonicus:

 

I'm as much of an old gamer as you - my first "dedicated" gaming rig was a Tandy 3 hooked to a black and white TV.  I recall the day the NES launched, and how quickly they dumped the robot peripheral.  I've beaten savagely hard games, as I noted above - and no, not "just" RPGs.  Double Dragon 3 was a pain in the balls, BTW.

 

And as is obvious, I am diametrically opposed to keeping rollers as they are.

 

People keep getting hung up on "easy/hard".  IT'S NOT ABOUT DIFFICULTY.  It's about frustration, annoyance, perception - the FEEL of the game.  I have the easiest answer to grinders in the game - I ride a Rhino.  Iron Skin > everything.  That doesn't make them balanced in any way, shape, or form, nor does it make them fun to fight against.  If you cannot understand that, then sadly this is where we part ways.  And for the record, your responses still lead me to think you'd be happier playing on a pro tour - your personality would mesh better with the cutthroat brutality intrinsic to "professional" competition.

[MoonicusMaximus]

What the hell? People are giving legitimate arguments, such as the fact that Grinders have no real counter besides bugging them out, hiding on boxes, or aiming at a tiny rapidly moving target, all of which are either bug exploitation, AI exploitation, or a skill level beyond what is expected for the vast majority of the game that stays constant the moment they're introduced, the fact that Grinders provide absolutely nothing and do not interact in any interesting way, shape or form with the environment, the player, or anything else, the fact that Grinders are an absolutely simple 8-bit enemy type which is basically a zero-effort enemy designed to create zero-effort difficulty by removing player agency, the fact that there are plenty of easy ways, such as grenades, to do exactly what the Grinders are supposed to do without the same frustration, and did I mention taking away player agency is a last resort?

 

So, if I'm reading this right, you are saying that; there is no real way to kill Rollers besides bugging them out, hiding on boxes, or doing something that is expected of you, as you are playing a 3rd Person Shooter, which has an emphasis on shooting at its most basic mechanics and gameplay fundamentals. I don't see a problem with that, you know. And again with this interact with the environment malarkey; do Osprey interact with the environment? Do Moa interact with the environment? What part about the purpose of the Roller and its designation as a machine unit do you seem to not understand pertaining to it and using cover? And don't interact with the player? You'd best just remove all enemies in the game in that case, because the Roller does the exact same thing as they do, which is attempt to kill the players through different means. Lancers do it by shooting at you. Rollers do it by actively chasing you around and disrupting you so that Lancers can shoot at you. If that's not interaction to the player, I seriously do not know what is or where you are suddenly seeing this sort of thing happening in other enemies and want it to happen with the Roller.

 

Grenades accomplish the same thing as a unit constantly chasing very fast Tenno and imparting next to no damage while staggering them for less than a second? Those must be some funny grenades. I'd love to see a Grineer midget who's entire job is to chase you around chucking stun grenades. The Roller accomplishes its task while being a totally new unit from the Grineer humanoid roster.

 

And could you just go ahead and tell me why exactly removing player agency is a bad thing? I already have a good idea of why it isn't, but I'd like to know what you think agency is and why it is afforded to players so that I can better tailor my argument to your specific definition.

 

 

I'm fairly sure what I'm seeing Madotsuki argue for is the game to retain the difficulty Rollers provide without the frustration they engender, which is significantly different from your deliberate misinterpretation of his statement as "Rollers are hard get rid of them."

 

And you boil that down to "I don't care much for it". That's a joke. Your argument is only "I WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO SUFFER AND TO LAUGH AT THEM", if we boil down your argument to such a hilarious strawman.

 

Removing the stagger from Rollers removes any tension or disruptive effects they would normally have. Rollers are a support unit that lends support by disrupting players rather than directly helping Grineer units. Changing the damn thing to something thats single purpose is to deal damage, like 90% of the other units in the game, would just end up being stale, boring and would pretty much remove the purpose of the Roller entirely.

 

And I have constantly stated that my argument is for people to get better at playing the game, not suffer and laugh at them. Plenty of people deal with Rollers and do not get frustrated by them; that in itself proves that it can be done, with some effort.

 

 

Take a look at Vanquish if you insist DmC can't be analogized to this game because it's not exactly the same genre or design. It's a third person fast-paced shooter just like Warframe. You will notice the existence of exactly zero possibilities of stunlock (you do occasionally stagger if you take very heavy fire, but you recover very quickly and cannot repeatedly get staggered). You will notice the game still manages to have a difficulty ranging from 'challenging' (on Normal) to 'absolutely vicious' (on the hardest difficulty). Their equivalents to the Grinder are many. You have guided attack bits which float high up and deal damage/keep you from using your slow-motion, enemies which can burrow through the ground and instant kill you if that slow-moving burrow attack hits, plenty of enemies with grenades, tall enemies who can see over your cover, and flying enemies who can bypass your cover.

 

Vanquish is also a single-player game, whereas Warframe is built to be played cooperatively. Huge difference in intended playstyles, mechanics and fundamentals.

 

I've played Vanquish several times. It's on my shelf right now. And I'm certain that if people felt they could complain about the fast-moving enemies in Vanquish that they found difficult in hopes of changing it magically instead of attempting to get better at it, they would. Is Vanquish suddenly a flawed game, are those enemies suddenly flawed enemies, now that people don't like it? Of course not. The comparative needs of enemies in Vanquish are nothing like the required needs of units meant for a multiplayer game. They don't match in purpose as they aren't built with a cooperative playstyle in mind. In this case, Rollers can disrupt players, but not all 4 players at once; you are meant to assist your team by killing Rollers as well.

 

Any game that you bring up that doesn't have a multiplayer cooperative mindset will be difficult to actually compare it to.

 

A multitude of ways to deal with you hiding behind cover and camping for headshots. None of which rely on stunlock. And before you go "but this can't translate into Warframe because things die fast" guess what? Non-boss non-miniboss enemies die really fast in Vanquish too! The shotgun in that game may be even more overpowered than the Hek!

 

Again, single player game versus multiplayer game. Things can be overpowered in single-player games because the developers do not have to worry about large groups of players interacting with enemy/character/weapon balance. The shotguns in Vanquish don't actually fire at the relative distance the Hek can, anyway. Platinum didn't have to worry about pleasing the different skill levels of players because they made a game that was meant to be surpassed, just like Warframe is meant to be surpassed.

[Huitzil]

"People should get better at the game" is a worthless argument. It is without value. It is garbage. It is, literally, as in literally literally and not used as an intensifier, never a worthwhile counterargument. 

 

And your entire argument consists of saying "People should play better", which is worthless, and lying about what other people are arguing, over and over and over again. I don't GET why people do this. What is the point of lying so much and so consistently when everyone can see you are lying?

[Tsukinoki]

@MoonicusMaximus
Let me interject into your discussion briefly.  I think that there should be something to mitigate the rollers.  The reason is that it is simply frustrating to take away player control.  It is not fun for the player to be forced to stand there and watch themselves be ripped apart and killed without being able to do anything.  And it isn't always the players fault.

I've gone up to a door before and been met by a large group of lancers and 3 rollers.  As soon as the door opened a roller jumped at me and started the stagger.  As I tried to get away I was making 1/2 steps before I was staggered again, and again, and again.  I was very nearly killed.  The reason?  I honestly couldn't do anything.  Am I supposed to be psychic to tell if there are rollers against the door Im about to open?  That's the only solution for a situation like that.

Oh, and the reason I didn't die?  The rollers got hung up on terrain so I could finally escape.  

I was playing with 1 other person who was busy with a group of grineer including a heavy gunner.  I dont play with full groups because my internet can handle 1 *maybe* 2 other people but then it starts lagging too much.  Instead of lagging everyone else I just stick to 2 person games.

In situations where you open a door and are greeted by multiple rollers, some in mid jump, there's nothing you can do.  No skill will enable you to look at a door and predict that there are rollers right on the other side waiting.  No skill allows you to magically escape situations like that.  And dont say enemy radar does that as enemy radar doesnt tell you what enemy is there, just that something is.  I dont have the mod or the artifact either.

Was that fight challenging?  Sure.  Was it fun?  Hek no.  All I could do was hold a direction and hope that I would be able to make it out of fire or that my friend would manage to get up to me and save me.  All that it reminded me of was the old days of playing rogue-likes where enemies could cast paralyze or sleep and all you can do is watch and pray that you wont die before it ends.  There is a reason that *most* games have moved away from that model of enemies.  And if that is the only "difficulty" that this game can come up with DE needs to begin rethinking enemies and what they can do.

 

There is a distinct difference between fair/fun difficulty and fake difficulty.  Fake difficulty is things like stun lock, where you cant do anything but watch as you die with no recourse.

I will agree that a player should be punished for mistakes, but he shouldn't be punished for something that he didn't do wrong.  Otherwise its akin to some old games where bosses had a set of attacks and one attack would reveal their weakspot and be the only way to hurt them.  If they never did that attack, which was possible, you were screwed and couldn't do anything but wait and pray.

I would be fine with rollers if DE added a function where the first stun affected you at full force, the next one was 3/4 duration, the next was 1/2 duration, and then 1/4 duration, and then for a while you couldn't be stunned.  It would still allow the stun the mess you up and get you hurt by enemies as you recover, but it wouldn't allow a stagger lock to be achieved and make you sit there and hope they either get hung up or you die quickly.  And if they do implement that system they should also make it apply to player caused stuns so that players cant stagger lock a boss either.  And doing that would not only remove the frustration that the rollers cause, it would also make bosses more difficult as players cant just max out stun, run in and stunlock the boss to death.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Wids]

I dont know if has been suggested. Frankly i have not read a full page of this thread but I thought id leave my idea here anyways.

 

I think that a kind of pop up action thing should appear over the roller when he jumps at you. Like when you stealth kill. It will just say E to melee or something like that. It will only be there for maybe less than a second so you half to be a ninja to hit it. If you do press E at the right time you do a melee attack animation directly into the attacking roller and instantly destroy it. During the animation of the melee you can't be stunned by another roller.
 

[MoonicusMaximus]

You know, the endless "if you shoot it it dies" spiel your ilk puts out is entertaining because it just proves the point of how annoying Grinders are. They're so annoying your "megaguides" are all "well don't get hit" forgetting that this isn't a one hitpoint shmup where getting hit once is supposed to put you into stunlock town.

 

Getting hit once doesn't put you into stunlock town.

 

Your overexaggeration of the effect of Rollers is reaching astounding levels.

 

Remind me when this game became a bullet hell shmup where you're supposed to avoid every enemy attack 100% of the time or die?

 

Ah right, never.

 

And Warframe isn't an avoid every enemy attack 100% of the time or die game. It never was. Because Rollers do not impart that measure of punishment upon players. They stagger you for a very short amount of time, which is recovered, while delivering very small amounts of damage. ACTUAL LEGITIMATE STUNLOCK happens so rarely that it's barely even an issue. What is your definition of stunlock, anyway? And time a person is stunned or staggered?

 

This is just because you got lucky, since Grinders have terrible AI and sometimes bug out and refuse to actually attack you, instead running into something and getting stuck. I've been stunlocked by as few as two Grinders. It says something very depressing about the enemy design when the enemy is approximately infinitely more fun to fight when its AI bugs out and it doesn't do anything than when it's doing something.

 

"Your opinion doesn't count; you got lucky. You just bugged them out."

 

His opinion on the matter is pretty clear. Don't just assume that his experience with Rollers is somehow your ideal situational display of their inherent flaws. That's just ridiculous. The fact that you would disregard his entire experience because you don't agree is almost offensive.

 

I've been in games where I've been surrounded by 5 rollers at once. I also was knocked around a bit, but I was able to overcome it and ultimately I felt a sense of accomplishment because I was able to deal with that situation without losing my head.

 

Again, what is your definition of stunlock? Because it seems to be different for everybody.

 

And all this for a basic enemy which spawns in numbers and isn't even remotely fun to fight, with no detail or animation. If they replaced Grinders with some kind of Grineer superheavy miniboss, the game would probably simultaneously be:

 

1. Harder

 

2. Way the hell more entertaining.

 

Oh, awesome, yet another slow moving bullet sponge enemy.

 

Because that is exactly what this game needs. Less elements challenging my ability to shoot in a 3rd person shooter game.

 

Moonicus:

 

I'm as much of an old gamer as you - my first "dedicated" gaming rig was a Tandy 3 hooked to a black and white TV.  I recall the day the NES launched, and how quickly they dumped the robot peripheral.  I've beaten savagely hard games, as I noted above - and no, not "just" RPGs.  Double Dragon 3 was a pain in the balls, BTW.

 

And as is obvious, I am diametrically opposed to keeping rollers as they are.

 

People keep getting hung up on "easy/hard".  IT'S NOT ABOUT DIFFICULTY.  It's about frustration, annoyance, perception - the FEEL of the game.  I have the easiest answer to grinders in the game - I ride a Rhino.  Iron Skin > everything.  That doesn't make them balanced in any way, shape, or form, nor does it make them fun to fight against.  If you cannot understand that, then sadly this is where we part ways.  And for the record, your responses still lead me to think you'd be happier playing on a pro tour - your personality would mesh better with the cutthroat brutality intrinsic to "professional" competition.

 

I'm not a competitive person; I don't think I would like a pro tour of Warframe. It's not built to be like that. I like it how it is, although it could use more units and an upgrade in difficulty.

 

And I just don't share your viewpoint on feelings of frustration and annoyance; yeah, I do not like being stunned, but I understand and respect WHY Rollers stun me, and I'd rather that it isn't changed.

 

"People should get better at the game" is a worthless argument. It is without value. It is garbage. It is, literally, as in literally literally and not used as an intensifier, never a worthwhile counterargument. 

 

And your entire argument consists of saying "People should play better", which is worthless, and lying about what other people are arguing, over and over and over again. I don't GET why people do this. What is the point of lying so much and so consistently when everyone can see you are lying?

 

And why is that? Why is it a worthless argument? It's already proven to be possible, not even that difficult. Why is wanting people to be able to learn from mistakes now worse than people who cannot learn from their mistakes wanting the offending element completely gone? How the hell is that lying?

 

The only thing worthless here are your accusations.

Edited May 6, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Huitzil]

It's a worthless argument because "get better" does not actually address the problem. ANY problem. Ever. When players as a group register dissatisfaction then the developer has done something wrong. Period. Making a game is about shaping an experience for the player. If they are unhappy about it, you done goofed.

 

It's lying when you continually, continually claim and act as if the people who want the grineer rollers removed or revamped are motivated by wanting to remove the challenge of the game and make it easy, when it has been explained to you again and again and again and again that nobody wants to make the game less challenging, but that rollers are not fun to fight and there are ways to add challenge that aren't complete stunlock bullS#&$. When you argue as if your opponents cannot abide challenge, and can't handle challenge, and want the game less challenging, even when you know this nto to be the case because it has been explained to you OVER AND OVER, that is called "lying".

[MoonicusMaximus]

@MoonicusMaximus

Let me interject into your discussion briefly.  I think that there should be something to mitigate the rollers.  The reason is that it is simply frustrating to take away player control.  It is not fun for the player to be forced to stand there and watch themselves be ripped apart and killed without being able to do anything.  And it isn't always the players fault.

I've gone up to a door before and been met by a large group of lancers and 3 rollers.  As soon as the door opened a roller jumped at me and started the stagger.  As I tried to get away I was making 1/2 steps before I was staggered again, and again, and again.  I was very nearly killed.  The reason?  I honestly couldn't do anything.  Am I supposed to be psychic to tell if there are rollers against the door Im about to open?  That's the only solution for a situation like that.

Oh, and the reason I didn't die?  The rollers got hung up on terrain so I could finally escape.  

I was playing with 1 other person who was busy with a group of grineer including a heavy gunner.  I dont play with full groups because my internet can handle 1 *maybe* 2 other people but then it starts lagging too much.  Instead of lagging everyone else I just stick to 2 person games.

In situations where you open a door and are greeted by multiple rollers, some in mid jump, there's nothing you can do.  No skill will enable you to look at a door and predict that there are rollers right on the other side waiting.  No skill allows you to magically escape situations like that.  And dont say enemy radar does that as enemy radar doesnt tell you what enemy is there, just that something is.  I dont have the mod or the artifact either.

Was that fight challenging?  Sure.  Was it fun?  Hek no.  All I could do was hold a direction and hope that I would be able to make it out of fire or that my friend would manage to get up to me and save me.  All that it reminded me of was the old days of playing rogue-likes where enemies could cast paralyze or sleep and all you can do is watch and pray that you wont die before it ends.  There is a reason that *most* games have moved away from that model of enemies.  And if that is the only "difficulty" that this game can come up with DE needs to begin rethinking enemies and what they can do.

 

There is a distinct difference between fair/fun difficulty and fake difficulty.  Fake difficulty is things like stun lock, where you cant do anything but watch as you die with no recourse.

I will agree that a player should be punished for mistakes, but he shouldn't be punished for something that he didn't do wrong.  Otherwise its akin to some old games where bosses had a set of attacks and one attack would reveal their weakspot and be the only way to hurt them.  If they never did that attack, which was possible, you were screwed and couldn't do anything but wait and pray.

I would be fine with rollers if DE added a function where the first stun affected you at full force, the next one was 3/4 duration, the next was 1/2 duration, and then 1/4 duration, and then for a while you couldn't be stunned.  It would still allow the stun the mess you up and get you hurt by enemies as you recover, but it wouldn't allow a stagger lock to be achieved and make you sit there and hope they either get hung up or you die quickly.  And if they do implement that system they should also make it apply to player caused stuns so that players cant stagger lock a boss either.  And doing that would not only remove the frustration that the rollers cause, it would also make bosses more difficult as players cant just max out stun, run in and stunlock the boss to death.

 

 

So you were ambushed? My condolences.

 

In a situation like that, it's just bad luck because you facecheck a door. You did have a way of preventing being overtaken in that manner, however; you could have heard them, however; Rollers emit a very distinct sound, and enemy sounds are not mitigated by walls, only distance. The closer you came to the door, the louder the Roller's grinding would get. I've conditioned myself to know the sound and be able to pick it out from amongst others to give me a good early warning; when you here the grinding, you know you have to move soon.

 

Sounds are just as important in games as visual elements.

 

As for getting out of stunlock, you know, I've already stated that I don't agree with removing the stagger effect from Rollers, but it's becoming more clear to me that people are complaining about being stunned during a stun, which I have never agreed with. I'm against removing the stagger from Rollers as their purpose is to disrupt players, and damage alone does not do this. I'm not against grace periods after stuns, as I understand why we should have them and what they represent in terms of easing continued assaults.

[11.11.11]

I dont know if has been suggested. Frankly i have not read a full page of this thread but I thought id leave my idea here anyways.

 

I think that a kind of pop up action thing should appear over the roller when he jumps at you. Like when you stealth kill. It will just say E to melee or something like that. It will only be there for maybe less than a second so you half to be a ninja to hit it. If you do press E at the right time you do a melee attack animation directly into the attacking roller and instantly destroy it. During the animation of the melee you can't be stunned by another roller.

 

 

Nice suggestion, but this game really dosn't need the like of QTE's in it. 

[MoonicusMaximus]

It's a worthless argument because "get better" does not actually address the problem. ANY problem. Ever. When players as a group register dissatisfaction then the developer has done something wrong. Period. Making a game is about shaping an experience for the player. If they are unhappy about it, you done goofed.

 

It doesn't address a problem because if all that needs to be do is increase your level of playing, there IS no problem. Any problem. Ever.

 

Players are always going to be unhappy about things in any game. The difference is that DE should be looking at which problems are actual legitimate problems, and not the simply cry of players who have not yet learned to fight the element properly. I'm sure a majority of players don't like the fact that if you die with all your continues used up, you are ejected from the level. Should DE change this too?

 

 

It's lying when you continually, continually claim and act as if the people who want the grineer rollers removed or revamped are motivated by wanting to remove the challenge of the game and make it easy, when it has been explained to you again and again and again and again that nobody wants to make the game less challenging, but that rollers are not fun to fight and there are ways to add challenge that aren't complete stunlock bullS#&$. When you argue as if your opponents cannot abide challenge, and can't handle challenge, and want the game less challenging, even when you know this nto to be the case because it has been explained to you OVER AND OVER, that is called "lying".

 

It may not be their supposed original intent, but it IS what will happen.

 

Your constant use of the word lie and your implications that I'm actively attempting to lie also annoys me. I'd like DE to nerf that, too.

[11.11.11]

Just a point I'd like to fling into the endless shouting-match this thread has become. 

 

A lot of people keep stating that grinders should remain in their present form because removing them, or altering them, would deprive the game of one of it's key sources of difficulty / challenge. The logical extension being that - in a third person shooter - you SHOULD be punished for not shooting things. Especially things that are avoidable. 

 

However, I would like to suggest that what causes the most butthurt over grinders is not their mechanics per-say. But our expectations as players.

 

 

 

This thread seems more a argument between those who expect to die in Warframe, and those who do not - more so than one between those who like grinders and those who hate their guts. 

 

 

Dark Souls sold itself with the line - "Prepare to die" 

Warframe sells itself with (what we have so far) - "Ninja's Play Free." 

 

 

 

One you went into, expecting the hardest of challenges - expecting to die many times over, expecting frustration and enemy attacks that seemed exploitave, because it was what the game was marketed as. It's what you chose to get yourself in to. 

 

What little material we have on warframe - in the form of two trailers, and mostly youtube playthroughs - seems more focused on a fun, graphically gorgeous romp through space with your 3 ninja-buddies, cutting down waves of enemies. Even the grineer are hinted at literally being mentally $&*&*#(%& in the promotional material, due to their asinine cloning tech. Quote: "While they may be at the height of power, the Grineer army is in bodily decay and their features are increasingly primitive as a result of continuous cloning."

 

 

Grinders aren't inherently poorly designed or broken - they just don't mesh with the expectations that the game forms in a lot of peoples minds.  And people aren't wrong for having that expectation - because that's the way the game has been marketed so far. 

 

 

 

More power to all you l33t players who are used to challenging shooters, the disconnect that grinders presents, probably doesn't even register for you. But for others it's a slap in the face.

Edited May 6, 2013 by 11.11.11

[11.11.11]

 

Your constant use of the word lie and your implications that I'm actively attempting to lie also annoys me. I'd like DE to nerf that, too.

 

And Lol Moonie - good to see you havn't lost your cool yet ^_^

[CrazyCanadian24]

I don't really give a damn for your wall-of-text pussyfights, but for the first, only, and last time... THEY'RE NOT GRINDERS. They're ROLLERS. Get it right, people!

[Sniktch]

I'm not a competitive person; I don't think I would like a pro tour of Warframe. It's not built to be like that. I like it how it is, although it could use more units and an upgrade in difficulty.

 

And I just don't share your viewpoint on feelings of frustration and annoyance; yeah, I do not like being stunned, but I understand and respect WHY Rollers stun me, and I'd rather that it isn't changed.

 

 

 

1. I didn't suggest a pro tour of Warframe.  I suggested a pro tour.  At the moment, the pro tour games are anything BUT Warframe - in general, they are PvP oriented games.  And again, my reading of your posts suggests to me you are a VERY competitive person - the tone and style are distinctive.

 

2. I understand why Rollers stun as well - but my understanding is different than yours, likely.  And several other people have made the point quite well that what's being asked is NOT to lessen the difficulty - but to change the TONE of the difficulty.  Flush Tenno from cover with anything BUT the damn "touch-drunk" balls.

[Dhyna]

My main concern about Rollers is that they won't be damaged or stopped by Mag's crush. They're supposed to be metal-made spheres, aren't they ?

[Zh40]

How about redesigning the Ancient Disruptors? 

Or maybe Railgun moas?

Just because these balls bug you/stun you, doesn't mean they need to be taken out. Theyre not that hard to kill, compared to many of the other options we have had in the past.
(Old version of grineer seekers? :P)

[AndryB94]

Oh gods... guys... Those walltexts killed me.

I want to thank everybody that contributed to the argument with points and discussion, like Moonicus, MJ12, or 11.11.11 (I am sorry for now acknowledging everybody).

Do we have some sort of outcome or not? XD

Edit: FOR THE RECORD.

I DO NOT WANT TO NERF THE ROLLERS. THEY'RE EITHER STAYING AS THEY ARE, BEING MODIFIED SOMEHOW, OR REPLACED.

Edited May 6, 2013 by AndryB94