Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Mbgunsling]

I think rollers are a snore, personally. The rare occasion they get through my dual ethers or hail of flaming bolts, they bump me and run into a wall; WAITING to be murdered.

HoNestly think theyd be more fun with something in exchange for the stun. Maybe a zap or a small gun or something.

[Stanzwick]

I'd keep them how they are now, but go with an earlier suggestion that they only stun during a charge, and give them a short spin-up time before charging (possibly with a new sound effect to let players know they're about to get charged). 

[GoneM4d]

Boo-hooo it's to hard, remove it from game or make it easier. Grow up and start using your imagination for once.

 

How to deal with rollers:

       Plan A '' High Ground''

1: Achieve higher ground.

2: Shoot it.

       Plan B '' Take one for the team''

1: Get stunned.

2: When out of stun aim for roller when it's coming back.

3: Shoot it.

       Plan C '' I am a @(*()$ Ninja''

1: Wait for roller to come within close distance.

2: Use offensive ability.

[Cestus]

Add more of them.

 

Failure to avoid rollers will result in nerfing Ember.

 

Now, Yellow Moa packs, now those... those suckers are on a whole 'nother level.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Cestus

[Nedwin]

Boo-hooo it's to hard, remove it from game or make it easier. Grow up and start using your imagination for once.

 

How to deal with rollers:

       Plan A '' High Ground''

1: Achieve higher ground.

2: Shoot it.

       Plan B '' Take one for the team''

1: Get stunned.

2: When out of stun aim for roller when it's coming back.

3: Shoot it.

       Plan C '' I am a @(*()$ Ninja''

1: Wait for roller to come within close distance.

2: Use offensive ability.

Plan D

1. Try nothing fron plans A,B,C

2. Find 5 rollers around the map.

3. Stack them

4. Get stunlock.

5. Die, rq, whine.

[MJ12]

Boo-hooo it's to hard, remove it from game or make it easier. Grow up and start using your imagination for once.

 

You really are good at defending their existence aren't you?

 

They're not hard. They're just balls of frustration that lackwits think are hard because they're incapable of distinguishing fake difficulty from the real thing, As I said a few posts ago, every feature Rollers have is a quintessential example of fake difficulty.

 

Removal of player agency? Fake difficulty.

 

Violation of game logic? Fake difficulty.

 

Arbitrary immunity to game mechanics such as stun? Fake difficulty.

 

Luck-based enemies who are entirely dependent on good terrain to not be frustrating? Fake difficulty.

 

Gimmick difficulty? Fake difficulty.

 

It doesn't matter that they're beatable. In fact it wouldn't matter if Rollers were super-easy enemies even a random newbie five minutes in could slaughter in droves. They're stupid, unfun enemies with no reason to exist when there are craptons of things which can do what they do infinitely better. The guy who designed them should be prohibited from making enemies that can stun ever again and the Roller should be not only removed but completely redacted from Warframe history

[Madotsuki]

You really are good at defending their existence aren't you?

 

They're not hard. They're just balls of frustration that lackwits think are hard because they're incapable of distinguishing fake difficulty from the real thing, As I said a few posts ago, every feature Rollers have is a quintessential example of fake difficulty.

 

Removal of player agency? Fake difficulty.

 

Violation of game logic? Fake difficulty.

 

Arbitrary immunity to game mechanics such as stun? Fake difficulty.

 

Luck-based enemies who are entirely dependent on good terrain to not be frustrating? Fake difficulty.

 

Gimmick difficulty? Fake difficulty.

 

It doesn't matter that they're beatable. In fact it wouldn't matter if Rollers were super-easy enemies even a random newbie five minutes in could slaughter in droves. They're stupid, unfun enemies with no reason to exist when there are craptons of things which can do what they do infinitely better. The guy who designed them should be prohibited from making enemies that can stun ever again and the Roller should be not only removed but completely redacted from Warframe history

Meh, it doesn't matter if we show we can kill Rollers perfectly fine, and that Rollers should be tweaked/removed due to them being unfun and using fake difficulty, most of the Roller lovers will just ignore everything you say and just use the same lrn2play argument to defend them. Hell i kill Rollers with my Paris/Glaive and they'll still say i'm a noob who can't aim because i DARE to not love Rollers.

 

Though honestly i don't think Rollers should be outright removed. All they need are some tweaks, many of which have been suggested throughout the previous 14 pages of this thread. Oh and calm down a little, you seem to be getting angrier, considering I'm pretty sure previously you didn't want Rollers outright removed. Don't feed the elitists.

 

On a side note, the poll results concerning whether people want Rollers to be tweaked/removed from the game are now 708 yes and only 110 no. I'll start a new thread discussing these results once the voters reach 1000.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Madotsuki

[GoneM4d]

You really are good at defending their existence aren't you?

 

They're not hard. They're just balls of frustration that lackwits think are hard because they're incapable of distinguishing fake difficulty from the real thing, As I said a few posts ago, every feature Rollers have is a quintessential example of fake difficulty.

 

Removal of player agency? Fake difficulty.

 

Violation of game logic? Fake difficulty.

 

Arbitrary immunity to game mechanics such as stun? Fake difficulty.

 

Luck-based enemies who are entirely dependent on good terrain to not be frustrating? Fake difficulty.

 

Gimmick difficulty? Fake difficulty.

 

It doesn't matter that they're beatable. In fact it wouldn't matter if Rollers were super-easy enemies even a random newbie five minutes in could slaughter in droves. They're stupid, unfun enemies with no reason to exist when there are craptons of things which can do what they do infinitely better. The guy who designed them should be prohibited from making enemies that can stun ever again and the Roller should be not only removed but completely redacted from Warframe history

Jesus are you that bad of a shot? I never have problems with rollers for more than 30seconds(thats when the hosts has a bad connection and I got a ping of 300). Also of course they don't get stunned because they are a @(*()$ mechanical machine which rolls around! Its a ball! Just because you shook ground or made a flash bang go off it wont stop it, because its a ball! Also the only way you can get stunnlocked its if you intentionally don't kill them but instead assemble them in one group from all over the map then be surprised when they stunn lock you. These little balls of doom add variety in to this game, they add a problem that requires a strategic solving or a being a good aim. This a coop game, type in chat that you need help with these balls.

[MoonicusMaximus]

They're not hard. They're just balls of frustration that lackwits think are hard because they're incapable of distinguishing fake difficulty from the real thing, As I said a few posts ago, every feature Rollers have is a quintessential example of fake difficulty.

Removal of player agency? Fake difficulty.

Not completely, unless it happens with stunlocking, which is an issue everyone agrees on, except you apparently.

 

Violation of game logic? Fake difficulty.

Sounds questionable. In what way?

 

Arbitrary immunity to game mechanics such as stun? Fake difficulty.

 

Grineer Commanders are immune to freeze effects.

90% of infested are immune to lightning damage and shock.

Certain tactics work better against different enemies.

Being immune to a particular game mechanic doesn't suddenly make it fake difficulty anywhere save for your imagination.

 

Luck-based enemies who are entirely dependent on good terrain to not be frustrating? Fake difficulty.

Completely untrue. To have Rollers not be frustrating requires more than just abuse of terrain. Often it doesn't require terrain abuse at all.

 

Gimmick difficulty? Fake difficulty.

In your opinion, maybe.

 

It doesn't matter that they're beatable. In fact it wouldn't matter if Rollers were super-easy enemies even a random newbie five minutes in could slaughter in droves. They're stupid, unfun enemies with no reason to exist when there are craptons of things which can do what they do infinitely better. The guy who designed them should be prohibited from making enemies that can stun ever again and the Roller should be not only removed but completely redacted from Warframe history

Rollers need some tweaks, as well as stunlocking mechanics in general. Everyone else seems to be in agreement over this.

There are no reasons to actually REMOVE Rollers from the game entirely when they can their more troublesome issues can be tweaked. No reasons.

Edited May 12, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Lumireaver]

They could stand to have a Sonic the Hedgehog style spin-up animation before going in for an attack. They're small enough so that they can still catch you off guard even with such a handicap. 

[AndryB94]

They could stand to have a Sonic the Hedgehog style spin-up animation before going in for an attack. They're small enough so that they can still catch you off guard even with such a handicap. 

That has been proposed in several other cases and, to be honest, it's an interesting implementation. Somebody proposed they would be immune while "revving up", and very fast while charging at you, but they would then have a stun period if they impacted a wall/solid object in which you could very easily kill them.

Another proposition was to have them only be able to stun you every 3/5 secs (a cooldown ability, in essence).

Another was to have diminishing returns.

See? We do have ideas, guys. Can't we vote on something, maybe make a poll in that regard?

[Mysteryman2000]

The rollers are pretty bad.  If I were to say anything about them, it is that after they hit you, they need a longer period to (not attack).  Once you stagger, you only have a second or two to recover.  The rollers keep moving after they hit you, they need a grace period so that they have to turn around and come at you again.  Rollers are a big problem in bigger numbers, because you might never be able to move.  There needs to be some sort of temporary stun immunity or the rollers need to take a small chill pill after the initial strike.

[MJ12]

Not completely, unless it happens with stunlocking, which is an issue everyone agrees on, except you apparently.

 

What. People have repeatedly said that staggers should be rare because removal of player agency is bad. Multiple people. Stop trying to rewrite reality when the issue is that staggering is overused and awfully implemented in Warframe. People said it when Grinders showed up. People said it when Nervos showed up. People have said it when Chargers got the ability to stagger, when Ancient Infested were given speed buffs, when literally everything since Update 5 was some variation of "here's a new enemy that can STAGGER YOU!"

 

Sounds questionable. In what way?

 

See below. There is basically no game logic rule that Rollers don't violate at least once. Things like "more impressive = tougher" and "smaller enemies = weaker" and "nothing is invulnerable to CC except bosses and even those guys are just somewhat resistant".

 

Grineer Commanders are immune to freeze effects.

90% of infested are immune to lightning damage and shock.

Certain tactics work better against different enemies.

Being immune to a particular game mechanic doesn't suddenly make it fake difficulty anywhere save for your imagination.

 

Ah right, show more examples of fake difficulty to prove Rollers aren't fake difficulty. And "90%"? Only Ancients are immune to electrical damage (unless it comes from Electric Shield, which they're super-vulnerable to), and they are notably not immune to the stun effects of electrical damage. So in both cases they still follow game logic better than Rollers.

 

You see, both Commanders and Ancients have a distinct attack animation. While not executing that animation they cannot hurt you. Meanwhile, Rollers can deal damage no matter what they do. You see, both Commanders and Ancients are much larger and more imposing than normal enemies and this justifies their increased defenses over normal enemies. Rollers, despite being smaller than Grineer Lancers, have more HP than they do and flat DR instead of armor.

 

I could keep going about the endless lameness of Rollers and how they absolutely refuse to follow game logic. There is basically no rule in Warframe they fail to violate in their quest to be unfun fake difficulty.

 

Completely untrue. To have Rollers not be frustrating requires more than just abuse of terrain. Often it doesn't require terrain abuse at all.

 

Man what. Standing on top of a box instantly makes Rollers non-frustrating. And sure, often it doesn't require terrain abuse. You can use invisibility powers to cheese Rollers, or invulnerability powers to cheese them, or ultimates, and all of this proves that Rollers are bad because they practically force you to spend a randomly-regained, low-stockpile, limited resource intended for dealing with difficult situations just to have something resembling fun when they show up.

 

Or do you mean it's fun aiming at a enemy which is low to the ground and has no hit responses whatsoever when aiming at things close to you has all kinds of amazing camera problems in a third person shooter?

 

In your opinion, maybe.

 

No, gimmick difficulty is the epitome of fake difficulty and most people agree that enemies which basically have a single gimmick and nothing else are awful. Enemies who are based on a single gimmick like Rollers are fake difficulty. This is pretty much the quintessential definition of fake difficulty. But the amazing thing is you have the unmitigated gall to state that my statements are 'opinions' while yours are even less grounded in objectivity.

 

See, here's the rub. All of my arguments work fine no matter how good you are at shooting Rollers. I'm more than capable of beating them, otherwise I wouldn't have managed to grind my way through Update 6 and 7. Your arguments are extremely dependent on your ability to beat Rollers and your skill level. If you can't easily beat them all your arguments fall apart like a house of cards.

 

I.e. they're basically just "Rollers are fine, lrn2play". And that is the quintessentially bankrupt game argument. "Lrn2play" being the sole defense of an enemy means they're probably absolute sh*t. So thank you for conceding that Rollers are utter sh*t.

 

Rollers need some tweaks, as well as stunlocking mechanics in general. Everyone else seems to be in agreement over this.

There are no reasons to actually REMOVE Rollers from the game entirely when they can their more troublesome issues can be tweaked. No reasons.

 

Except for the reason that they're an unfun enemy which the vast majority of players absolutely loathe, and the only defenses you can muster up are "they make the game harder" (ahahahaha that isn't a good reason for anything because it justifies any mechanic, no matter how bad, which adds difficulty) and "learn to play" (I've learned to play just fine and Rollers still make me want to ragequit the moment they show up). Rollers are a worthless enemy which should be removed simply as a reminder to the guy who designed them that enemies who are just literal balls of fake difficulty with no redeeming qualities whatsoever should have no place in the game. Ever. They shouldn't be tweaked, they shouldn't be nerfed, they should just be removed. Period. It's like what lamiadomina said a while back. "No amount of changes are going to change the fact that the Rollers are terrible enemies with no redeeming qualities. You might be able to make them tolerable but that's still not enough."

 

When he/she posted that months back, I actually didn't back it. I thought "sure, Rollers are annoying but I'm sure I can figure out how to fight them soon and then they'll become fun" With additional experience in fighting Rollers I figured out how to fight them and deal with them plenty well. And my opinion of them has deteriorated. So yeah, that's your argument. "Learn to play, so you'll learn that Rollers are unfun bulls**t even after you know how to fight them".

[RealityMachina]

He's asking you to answer the question. Do you think that Rollers are easy and 85% of the Warframe playerbase cannot play third person shooters to save their lives or if they aren't actually super-easy and the majority of the playerbase is not laughably incompetent.

So can I get an answer to this already? Or is this going be one of those questions I ask that get constantly avoided because people don't want to face the facts that maybe what they think the playerbase is like and what the playerbase is actually like are two different things?

 

(And this is before I get into my opinion that from what I have seen and read, on both this forum and other related forums, I've noticed that people who tend to complain about rollers and other enemies being "too easy", have this tendency to be also, to paraphrase that BFH trailer, " ultra-skilled ambigiously aged males who play the game every day for 8 hours, or at least have the equipment that could easily believed to belong to such a player" )

[Mbgunsling]

Fecking.

Words.

Rollars bad. Pls fix DE.

[MoonicusMaximus]

What. People have repeatedly said that staggers should be rare because removal of player agency is bad. Multiple people. Stop trying to rewrite reality when the issue is that staggering is overused and awfully implemented in Warframe. People said it when Grinders showed up. People said it when Nervos showed up. People have said it when Chargers got the ability to stagger, when Ancient Infested were given speed buffs, when literally everything since Update 5 was some variation of "here's a new enemy that can STAGGER YOU!"

 

And nearly all of our suggestions as of now for changes to Rollers are talking about reduction of the amount of ways these staggers are delivered and the reduction of stunlocking in general. The direction of the thread has moved to a much more reasonable "they need tweaks" instead of the outrageous "just remove them for f**ks sake". People are attempting to give good suggestions to make Rollers less of chore instead of just asking for them cut from the game entirely, and that's a good direction to go. Better than the alternative.

 

See below. There is basically no game logic rule that Rollers don't violate at least once. Things like "more impressive = tougher" and "smaller enemies = weaker" and "nothing is invulnerable to CC except bosses and even those guys are just somewhat resistant".

 

I don't understand your line of reasoning; there isn't a set of videogame guidelines that Warframe is forced to adhere to, even if they actually do adhere to it. "Smaller enemies = weaker" is exactly what Rollers are. They have among the lowest HP ratios in the game. They are seriously damaged by light Sentinal harassment, and if you are talking about the danger factor, that is what this thread is currently trying to address. Rollers are also affected by cold damage and freeze effects, meaning that it indeed vulnerable to certain CC methods.

 

So no, Rollers don't actually violate these game logic "rules", as silly as that concept is.

 

Ah right, show more examples of fake difficulty to prove Rollers aren't fake difficulty. And "90%"? Only Ancients are immune to electrical damage (unless it comes from Electric Shield, which they're super-vulnerable to), and they are notably not immune to the stun effects of electrical damage. So in both cases they still follow game logic better than Rollers.

 

Your definition of fake difficulty perplexes me. Because certain units are not affected by certain game mechanics... this automatically makes the difficulty they provide not actual difficulty? Because Grineer Commanders are not affected by cold damage chilling effects, but affected by the several other means of CC in the game, this means that the Grineer Commander should be changed or outright removed like the Roller, because it is somehow falsely difficult by being immune to a single aspect of the game? That's hardly sound reasoning.

 

By your game logic "rules", shouldn't Ancients be immune to staggering by something as simple as a normal non-charge melee swing? And they are quite large and certainly sturdy enough to remain standing if Tenno deliver flying kicks to them. Larger units are supposed to be inherently more dangerous in this manner, shouldn't they?

 

You see, both Commanders and Ancients have a distinct attack animation. While not executing that animation they cannot hurt you. Meanwhile, Rollers can deal damage no matter what they do. You see, both Commanders and Ancients are much larger and more imposing than normal enemies and this justifies their increased defenses over normal enemies. Rollers, despite being smaller than Grineer Lancers, have more HP than they do and flat DR instead of armor.

 

Commanders have no distinct attack animation or wind-up for their switch-teleport ability. Their ability to shoot you, also, is telegraphed to the player in a fraction of a second, meaning that in any normal situation, you'll still be hit by it. Ancients do have distinct attack animations, and rightly should, because they impart a pretty heavy penalty for being struck by said attack. Rollers also have similar attack animations, called rolling and leaping. Currently, Rollers can stagger upon simple touch; I and other people agree that Rollers should not be able to do this. Instead, I believe Roller's stagger should only be imparted upon the player through its leaping animation, which it performs at a much smaller frequency than simply rolling about at your feet. This would alleviate a lot of unnecessary stunlocking potential, but not all of it, while still keeping the Roller's ability to actually disrupt players. As I said before, stunlock in general needs to be addressed.

 

And Rollers have more HP than Lancers? What? Are we even playing the same game now? I mean, first off, going from comparing Rollers, a special unit type, to other special units types like Commanders and Infested, then suddenly to stock fodder units like Lancers, is an unfair comparison. Rollers are not meant to be seen at the same frequency as Lancers, and they simply are not. While the HP differences between special unit Rollers and special units Commanders and Ancients is fairly noticeable, the effective HP between the two favor's Lancers as well; you will require more shots to kill a Lancer, assuming you are striking the head, than a Roller of equal levels. I haven't heard a single person argue the contrary until now.

 

I could keep going about the endless lameness of Rollers and how they absolutely refuse to follow game logic. There is basically no rule in Warframe they fail to violate in their quest to be unfun fake difficulty.

 

So far you've given your opinion on how they refuse to follow your game logic. When they, in fact, follow Warframe's game logic pretty fairly. They are a small, fast, and easily killed enemy type that disrupts rather than damages. Some of their methods of delivering disruption need to be adjusted. This does not justify removing them entirely, and it doesn't fit into your increasingly biased take on fake difficulty.

 

Man what. Standing on top of a box instantly makes Rollers non-frustrating. And sure, often it doesn't require terrain abuse. You can use invisibility powers to cheese Rollers, or invulnerability powers to cheese them, or ultimates, and all of this proves that Rollers are bad because they practically force you to spend a randomly-regained, low-stockpile, limited resource intended for dealing with difficult situations just to have something resembling fun when they show up.

 

Or do you mean it's fun aiming at a enemy which is low to the ground and has no hit responses whatsoever when aiming at things close to you has all kinds of amazing camera problems in a third person shooter?

 

Or you could shoot them. You prove absolutely nothing when you abuse terrain or abilities, because Rollers are able to be dealt with by simply shooting at them. The game certainly doesn't force you to do any of this "cheesing and abusing" nonsense in order to kill Rollers, you choose to do such things.

 

Is it fun to aim and shoot at a Roller coming at me down the hall, or making a u-turn after it struck me? Sure, it's about as fun as shooting at Lancers while they sit there behind boxes, waiting for me to make little white numbers fly out of their bodies. It's about as fun as shooting floating Osprey. About as fun as stunlocking an ancient to death effortlessly. The fact that you describe a single situation in fighting Rollers and try to blow it out of proportion to the point where you try and maintain that this is the only possible situation you will see when fighting them makes it hard to view your opinions as objective and constructive rather than just simply prejudiced.

 

 

No, gimmick difficulty is the epitome of fake difficulty and most people agree that enemies which basically have a single gimmick and nothing else are awful. Enemies who are based on a single gimmick like Rollers are fake difficulty. This is pretty much the quintessential definition of fake difficulty. But the amazing thing is you have the unmitigated gall to state that my statements are 'opinions' while yours are even less grounded in objectivity.

 

No, I meant your view of them as gimmick difficulty, and how it inherently makes them a terrible, unnecessary unit, is strictly your own personal view. You seem to view Rollers as only a method of stunlocking players. I see them as a unique enemy in the Grineer roster that differs from conventional special Grineer enemies by being small, fast, with low HP in contrast to large, slow and tanky, with a focus on disrupting players rather than outright damaging them. They compliment the other Grineer units well and stand out in this regard, rather than simply blending to the point of being unnoticeable and often unnecessary, like Heavy Gunners and Bombardiers. I agree that, in light of arguments, some aspects of the current rendition of Rollers need to be changed. But I still have yet to hear a valid reason for their complete removal.

 

See, here's the rub. All of my arguments work fine no matter how good you are at shooting Rollers. I'm more than capable of beating them, otherwise I wouldn't have managed to grind my way through Update 6 and 7. Your arguments are extremely dependent on your ability to beat Rollers and your skill level. If you can't easily beat them all your arguments fall apart like a house of cards.

 

I.e. they're basically just "Rollers are fine, lrn2play". And that is the quintessentially bankrupt game argument. "Lrn2play" being the sole defense of an enemy means they're probably absolute sh*t. So thank you for conceding that Rollers are utter sh*t.

 

Incorrect. My arguments are "Rollers can, with certain changes, be fine, and need these changes rather than outright removal." While your argument is, from what I can understand "Rollers should not be fixed, but rather removed because expecting people to be able to shoot well in a 3rd person shooter game, advertised as a 3rd person shooter game, is unreasonable to people who cannot play 3rd person shooter games well."

 

This is my beef with your current line of thought; you want Rollers removed because DE somehow expects people to play a shooting game as a shooting game. And at the risk of sounding elitist or bigoted, yes, I do expect some modicum of 3rd-person shooting skill from other players in a game like warframe, just as I expect my baseball teammates to actually be at the very least decent at baseball. Nothing about Warframe's actual shooting mechanics are so physically taxing as to be called unfair. Most of Roller woes aren't even about the ability to shoot them, but rather are rather focused on stunlocks, and how easily they are stunlocked, and how the penalty of constant staggering is not proportionate to the enemy in question. At the moment, I agree with them, because several parts of the Roller's mechanics should not stagger as easily as it does now.

 

Except for the reason that they're an unfun enemy which the vast majority of players absolutely loathe, and the only defenses you can muster up are "they make the game harder" (ahahahaha that isn't a good reason for anything because it justifies any mechanic, no matter how bad, which adds difficulty) and "learn to play" (I've learned to play just fine and Rollers still make me want to ragequit the moment they show up). Rollers are a worthless enemy which should be removed simply as a reminder to the guy who designed them that enemies who are just literal balls of fake difficulty with no redeeming qualities whatsoever should have no place in the game. Ever. They shouldn't be tweaked, they shouldn't be nerfed, they should just be removed. Period. It's like what lamiadomina said a while back. "No amount of changes are going to change the fact that the Rollers are terrible enemies with no redeeming qualities. You might be able to make them tolerable but that's still not enough."

 

I've already stated several other reasons for why Rollers should be kept in the game.

 

And for all the unproven "facts" and varying definitions of "fake difficulty" that are being thrown around, I have still not as of yet seen an actual valid reason for Rollers to be outright removed rather than changed to a more fun enemy, while the only reason I would need to justify keeping Rollers around but changing them is  that can can potentially be fun.

Edited May 13, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MoonicusMaximus]

So can I get an answer to this already? Or is this going be one of those questions I ask that get constantly avoided because people don't want to face the facts that maybe what they think the playerbase is like and what the playerbase is actually like are two different things?

(And this is before I get into my opinion that from what I have seen and read, on both this forum and other related forums, I've noticed that people who tend to complain about rollers and other enemies being "too easy", have this tendency to be also, to paraphrase that BFH trailer, " ultra-skilled ambigiously aged males who play the game every day for 8 hours, or at least have the equipment that could easily believed to belong to such a player" )

I'm not going to answer it because it's a dumb question. 85% of people who saw that poll wanted Rollers either changed or completely removed.

The actual Yes portion of the yes/no decision has two very different outcomes coupled into one. And, hell, 85% of the playerbase? According to this new article, which can or cannot be considered a fact, the playerbase of Warframe is roughly 1 million.

http://2p.com/516127d0c01d1ec0e578787d_1/Action-MMO-Warframe-Snatches-1-Million-Gamers-Worldwide.htm

This poll (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies) has a grand total of 902 votes. That's not 85% of Warframe's playerbase. Shoot, it's not even 1%.

So, yeah. It's a really, really dumb question.

Edited May 13, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[MJ12]

I'm not going to answer it because it's a dumb question. 85% of people who saw that poll wanted Rollers either changed or completely removed.

The actual Yes portion of the yes/no decision has two very different outcomes coupled into one. And, hell, 85% of the playerbase? According to this new article, which can or cannot be considered a fact, the playerbase of Warframe is roughly 1 million.http://2p.com/516127d0c01d1ec0e578787d_1/Action-MMO-Warframe-Snatches-1-Million-Gamers-Worldwide.htm

This poll (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies) has a grand total of 902 votes. That's not 85% of Warframe's playerbase. Shoot, it's not even 1%.

So, yeah. It's a really, really dumb question.

So do you not understand anything about statistics? Assuming a random poll those 900 votes would be more than enough to give an accurate picture of the playerbase's opinions. "But the poll isn't random!" You'll say.

You're right. It's not. It's a poll of people who browse the Warframe wiki, which means they do out-of-game research on their game. This means a much higherr proportion of powergamers will be viewing the poll and providing input. How does this matter? Well, simple. Powergamers and people who spend time on videogame wikis are more dedicated gamers who will, because of that dedication, generally also be more skillled than your average gamer. The poll also will not catch players who have been frustrated by excessive overruse of stun mechanics and decided to quit. Literally everyone the poll excludes is far more likely to dislike Rollers than like them.

So his question is being generous. The proportion is probably closer to "99% of the players want Rollers changed or removed and only a minority of toxic customers want them to stay." Toxic customers who insist the problem with Rollers is a player one, not a design one.

And you're right that most people want to change them instead of remove them. This is because most people don't quite get that the changes which will make Rollers tolerable would virtually make them useless or completely change their role to the point where they might as well be a new enemy. Polishing Rollers is like polishing a turd, there's no reason to do it. It's not even like Sunk Cost Fallacy applies-Rollers have had their model reused for Latchers, as well as their behavior and animations.

[TenStorms]

In the last Livestream, they said they want to unlock game difficulties in the future...the Rollers would be a Candidate then for the tougher difficulties. Should solve the Problem.

 

I personally love em and have no problems. And i got stagger-killed the first time i ran into them.

Hey we are space ninjas..if you hear them...get away from the floor....we can wallrun jump do thousands super cool movement things.I would even go further and say make them even more deadlier (but only in conjunction with difficulty settings enabled, so everyone can choose their level of "annoyance" or "challenge"..however you call it.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Ten_Storms

[Schokoladenonkel]

I absolutely hate rollers and that's why I definitely want them to stay in the game, they are a major annoyance and pain in the &#! and I love it. There are alot of easy to deal with enemies in the game already and these little bastards can really change the flow of a fight, it's something you really have to look out for and get rid of as fast as possible, which I find to be a great gameplay mechanic.

 

I will say this tho, I find it to be kind of irritating that they jump at you when you climb on something. I did that when I first met them, to get away from them and they came "jumping" at me, which I found kind of odd since they are just rolling balls, that shouldn't necessarily be jumping all around on their own. It's always fun if one is hopping on an elevator to get a lift, tho. ^^

 

 

Schoko

Edited May 13, 2013 by Schokoladenonkel

[MJ12]

Man I never thought I'd see an example of Marxist false class consciousness in video games of all places. This is incredible.

[MyXmaN]

Some people will never understand that there are enemies that are meant to be easy.

There are enemies that are meant to be challenging.

And there are also some enemies that are meant to be FRUSTRATING.

 

Im gonna be very sad and depressive if rollers, ancient disruptors (yeah, there was a topic to remove them too) and shockwaves/railguns ever get removed. It will definitely kill the game in my eyes.

And a lot of people will definitely quit, because there will be absolutely zero challenge. And this game is casual enough as it is.

 

You must really hate this game and its developers for wanting this game dead.

 

So you may go on with your polls and stuff. I just really hope the developers will never listen.

[Kerrus]

Jesus are you that bad of a shot? I never have problems with rollers for more than 30seconds(thats when the hosts has a bad connection and I got a ping of 300). Also of course they don't get stunned because they are a @(*()$ mechanical machine which rolls around! Its a ball! Just because you shook ground or made a flash bang go off it wont stop it, because its a ball! Also the only way you can get stunnlocked its if you intentionally don't kill them but instead assemble them in one group from all over the map then be surprised when they stunn lock you. These little balls of doom add variety in to this game, they add a problem that requires a strategic solving or a being a good aim. This a coop game, type in chat that you need help with these balls.

 

I don't think you read the post. The issue isn't that 'they're impossible to beat'.

It's that they're poorly designed false difficulty gimmick enemies whom, while they add 'variety', are very unfun to play. You seem to be reading this stuff as though we're saying 'enemies we can't easily demolish aren't fun', when in practice we'd welcome enemies that are hard to beat, but are built using the legitimate mechanics that all the other non-roller enemies are built on.

Also, trying to apply realism to this game and going 'you can't stun robots' clearly you've never seen what a lightning strike will do to a motor: hint: It'll ruin the S#&$ out of it. Stun is stun- it shouldn't care about if something has car parts growing out of it or is a meat zombie. None of the other game elements do, and you guys seem perfectly fine with the FTL space ninjas, but the idea of electrocuting a machine and that causing problems harms your suspension of disbelief?

That's not just stupid, that's ludicrously stupid. You're so far out of the realm of the sensible that you've gone to plaid.

[AndryB94]

Some people will never understand that there are enemies that are meant to be easy.

There are enemies that are meant to be challenging.

And there are also some enemies that are meant to be FRUSTRATING.

 

Im gonna be very sad and depressive if rollers, ancient disruptors (yeah, there was a topic to remove them too) and shockwaves/railguns ever get removed. It will definitely kill the game in my eyes.

And a lot of people will definitely quit, because there will be absolutely zero challenge. And this game is casual enough as it is.

 

You must really hate this game and its developers for wanting this game dead.

 

So you may go on with your polls and stuff. I just really hope the developers will never listen.

Have you even read the rest of the thread? Yes, There's some people that want to outright remove the rollers, but most people don't. I'd say the prevalent mindset here is "Yeah, they could actually use a tweak or two, if not even a redesign". Also, we're not talking shockwaves/railguns/disruptors.

[Kerrus]

Some people will never understand that there are enemies that are meant to be easy.

There are enemies that are meant to be challenging.

And there are also some enemies that are meant to be FRUSTRATING.

 

Im gonna be very sad and depressive if rollers, ancient disruptors (yeah, there was a topic to remove them too) and shockwaves/railguns ever get removed. It will definitely kill the game in my eyes.

And a lot of people will definitely quit, because there will be absolutely zero challenge. And this game is casual enough as it is.

 

You must really hate this game and its developers for wanting this game dead.

 

So you may go on with your polls and stuff. I just really hope the developers will never listen.

 

You seem to think that the first thing is just like the second thing.

 

It @(*()$ isn't. 

 

Disruptors and railgun moas are both annoying but ultimately challenging enemies that you can use a variety of tactics to defeat. They don't force one specific response and utilize false-difficulty to make the game more unfun, and we are absolutely not saying 'make the game piss easy'

You can have really challenging fights that don't use false difficulty to win- higher health, unique but ultimately not cheaty abilities- there's a breadth of options there, and the Ancient Disruptors and Railgun moas exemplify how it can be done right.

Rollers? Hahahaha, no. 

 

 

For an out of game example, take armored core. Armored core is @(*()$ hard on the harder difficulties, for a number of reasons. It's got some false difficulty in it (NPCs never run out of ammo), but ultimately your enemies are typically built on the same rules and mechanics you're built on. They have similar HP, weapons, defenses, and movement styles.

 

However every now and then you'll run into a piece of frustrating false difficulty that completely ruins any fun an encounter might otherwise be.

For example: In armored core 4: For Answer, you get to fight the titular White Glint, whom would be an awesome enemy to fight if not for one thing: He has a scripted autododge maneuver that violates the game mechanics, cannot be performed by players, and doesn't care about how fast he's going, what direction he's going, or how much splash damage you're dealing to the area.

Even using what are basically nukes, when his auto-dodge triggers he becomes totally invincible for the three to five seconds it takes to execute. 

 

It also looks very weird when he does it, and essentially prevents you from using 70% of your arsenal against him.

 

Sniper rifle (Linear cannon)? Nope, autododges. Beam rifle? Autododge. Machine gun? Autododge. Missiles? Autododge. 

Really your only option against him is that he has a scripted part where he flies right up to you at the start of the fight- and if you load up on pile drivers (high damage range 0 melee weapons) you can kill him in one hit. Or you can go the old standbye of grenade launchers and nuke him that way.

ALL OTHER OPTIONS? Nope, autododge. 

 

 

It's cheesy, it's frustrating, and it does not contribute to the game to make it fun or enjoyable- only to take what would otherwise be an interesting encounter and completely destroy any enjoyment a player might get from it.

That's false difficulty in action, and it's very similar to what happens with rollers. Now, as rollers are not a boss enemy, they're able to be killed much easier than White "Autododging" Glint, but that doesn't mean their false-difficulty use is any less false- they're still poorly designed and implemented, and actively work to make encounters un-fun. 

Again, as a player who wants rollers removed or redesigned, we do not want the game to become piss easy as you keep attempting to paint us as. We want a challenging, fun game that encourages players to think laterally and adapt to different enemies. But we do not want enemies that are pure false-difficulty that only serve to make the game less fun in the name of a 'challenge'.