Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[GoneM4d]

@GoneM4d

It only takes 2 or 3 rollers to be able to stunlock you.  And surprise, they can spawn in groups of 2 to 4 at a time, meaning that its not collecting them, its that you got a single normal spawn of them.

And yes, challenge is good.  Unfun, frustrating, and cheap enemies are not.  If DE would fix the stun mechanics so that enemies cant stunlock players, and players cant stunlock enemies, then everything with rollers would be good.

And thank you for pointing out that really the only way to 100% avoid stunlock is the abuse of terrain.  If an enemy requires abuse of terrain to keep from being just frustrating than there is something wrong with the enemy.  You have to look at an enemy and fix what is frustrating with it.  You dont have to remove the enemy, you just need to fix the mechanic which is making the enemy so annoying and unfun to fight.

There are three suggestions mentioned in this thread to mitigate the stunlock without heavily nerfing rollers:

1) Diminishing returns on stuns

2) Make them have to do an attack animation

3) Make their stun an ability with a 3 to 5 second CD.

Otherwise if you're unlucky and didnt hear them coming, which can happen, you can be pushed against a box by them and then infinately stunned without any chance to escape.

That is a bad mechanic right there.

People want rollers to get fixed because they are the main users of a broken/bad mechanic.  DE needs to fix the mechanic that the rollers use, stunning/staggering, and these threads would disappear.

I have 110h+ on this game and only been stunnlocked once and it lasted for a good 5 seconds but then I managed to get out it. Rollers are bugged I find it hard to believe that they can kill you. During most cast you are invournable and have ability to escape. Remeber Napalm Grineer, they did damage to you through terrain now that is something broken, rollers are something that works fine. Also at your first its like asking enemy to shoot at you less because he landed 3 hits now he has to miss, just doesn't make any sense.

Edited May 13, 2013 by GoneM4d

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
True, with their damage they cant kill you alone, but when you are pushed up against a box/wall with the roller just moving forwards and making it unable to move at all because its sitting on your feet and rolling, which stuns and damages, it can easily allow the other enemies to come around and finish you off.  All the while you can just sit there and watch and hope that the AI derps and moves the roller away from you.

Also depending on how the rollers attacks are staggered out you may not have a chance to use an ability because of how frequently they can stun you.

Any of the three fixes would offer a reprieve so that a person isn't reduced to watching and hoping that they die quickly so that they can get back to playing the game.

And if DE would adopt diminishing returns on stuns it would remove the stunlock from both players and chargers while at the same time preventing a player from stunlocking a boss or ancient.  In the end it would remove the unfun component from stunning while preventing cheesing of bosses and higher level enemies.  Both of those are very good things, especially the first one when it comes to improving the lifespan of gameplay.

And the mechanic that the rollers abuse will be a problem, especially as more people come to play this game and want to avoid any of the higher level grineer maps because of rollers.  And while it isn't a big problem yet I have run across a few pugs that refuse to run any of those maps because of the stunlock abuse.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Pi_Masta]

Alright first off I've only read through the first 3 pages of this topic (sorry I don't have the time to go through them all, but I do want to voice my opinion on the topic).

 

In my opinion the rollers are an Annoying Challenge and would like to see them as just a Challenge.

 

Removal of the rollers? NO, sorry. I might find them annoying but as mentioned previously (and sadly might I add) they are the only Grineer enemy that are challenging. Removal is just a knee-jerk reaction to being stunlocked by them.

 

Tweaking them so they can't stunlock you but are still challenging? Yes. How? The first page seems to have some good answers (page 2 and 3 seemed to have devolve into a semi-flame war). A stumbling cooldown, after so many stumbles you are immune for a second or 2, or a gradual reduction in stumble time as you get chained hit.

 

As to their 'aura' of stumbling, I can attest to this as I used Ash's Smoke screen and bumped into one (which did not have blades out nor was there another player for it to see and attack, said player was down which is why I popped smoke and was running past it and not shooting it, poor idea in hindsight now). Anyways this is just not right. 

 

This should be pretty easy to fix coding wise. You already have an attack animation and logic in place to show/revert it. Basically instead of: if roller is near player then stun said player, replace with: if roller is near player AND roller is attacking then stun said player.  

 

I will admit I have not been killed by Rollers stunlocking me, I have been in near-stunlock situations where I've been unable to move for 3-4 seconds which led to a large reduction in my health. I can see that at a certain number of them they could completely stunlock you, which to me is the main problem.

 

As to the argument of being punished for not handling them. I agree in part. The penalty (stun) is balanced for the oops of not handling 1 or 2 of them. However they can stack up to where a single oops (or even trying to handle one of them and get hit by another) in turn gets you stunlocked, which is not balanced as it is basically kills you (indirectly) with no recourse.

[GoneM4d]

@Tsukinoki

Ok lets look at it from a different angle. Roller is a unit that has only 1 job to do it is to catch up to you and stunn you, rinse and repeat. Now the fact that you got in a position where rollers stunnlocks you its you failer and their success because its was their job and they did it well. That is their single purpose in this game. Additionally as you know these little robots are bugged they get stuck on everything even on the player. Moreover you are saying if there are 3+ rollers insight you will get stunnlocked and killed, false. That happens extremely rarely and every sane player always tries to target the rollers first. Just because you ignored them and they stunnlock you does not make them OP. It is very rare for them to stunnlock anyone and even then you have other players that can help you.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
The fact remains if they can stun lock you *indefinitely* without a chance for you to recover because one happened to spawn behind you while you were behind a box and recovering shields and it rolled up against you endlessly, that its either a bad mechanic or a bad enemy.

And if the main way to avoid frustration is to hope for bad AI pathing/exploiting terrain that just strengthens the need to look into the enemy or mechanic that is a problem.

And all I was saying is that 3 rollers *can* stunlock you without recourse.  Not that they will but the probability isn't that low.  And while it is true that allies can help you depending on what else you are fighting they may not be able to immeadiately...and this game does have a solo option, and the fixes suggested would balance it for both solo and group play at the same time.

And let me re-iterate what has been said earlier in this thread:
If the sole reason an enemy exists is to be frustrating then there is no reason for the enemy to exist.

DE just needs to fix the stun mechanics to prevent infinite stunlocking.

[GoneM4d]

@Tsukinoki

Still your only argument is that we should nerf it because there is a 20% change that you might get stunnlocked from 3 rollers. This is not a good argument.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
Im not looking for a nerf.  I am looking for a fix of the stunlock mechanics in general.

How fun is it to stunlock an ancient or boss infinately?
How fun is it to be stunlocked by rollers and chargers?

By fixing the mechanic without changing anything on those enemies it solves all of the issues.

Stunlocking is a broken mechanic in any game.  Removing it is generally the best option.

Its like in Monster Hunter or Soul Sacrifice where a big monster stands on top of you knocking you down infinately and damaging you without giving you a chance to do anything.  Is it "challenging"?  Sure.  Is it fun?  No.

Stunlocking is pretty much the same thing.  It's cheap difficulty that could be implemented in much better ways.

Just fix the stunlocking from both players and mobs and the frustration disappears while still keeping it challenging/difficult.  Especially since players could no longer stunlock bosses and high level ancients.

[GoneM4d]

@Tsukinoki

You dense @&#(&*@#$#!

 

Stop thinking about this game where you have 100% of getting stunnlocked, stop thinking about this game as if you play it solo! This is coop game. This game is build around COOP. You get stunnlocked(20% chance) you ask your team for help. Just because you playing this game COOP focused game solo then get stunlocked does not mean it has to get nerfed or fixed. It works fine. There is a single unit with 1 objective and it fufils its purpose just fine. Even if you do get stunnlocked nothing is stopping you from typing in squad chat asking for help. If your team doesn't help you then they are the C***s not rollers.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
Then tell me what are the solid reasons to not fix the mechanics and keep them the same?

Is it simply because you've never had an issue with them compared to everyone that has?

And please don't resort to lrn2play.  I can handle them just fine.  Does that make them fun?  Interesting?  Challenging? No, no and no.  They are simply not fun to fight, frustrating, and abusing a mechanic.

Just please enlighten me as to how they are perfectly balanced and should never be touched.

[Kiry]

Thats one of the discussion where a famous statement *Learn to play*  bring all its about, seriosly bring the difficulty option alredy, and separate casual players from hardcore players, with such amount of nerfing enemyes should get, amount of buffs frames should get,accordianaly to the forum votes  - this game should soon become easyer then tetris on slowest difficulty.

[GoneM4d]

@Tsukinoki

OK here we go again. This game is still in beta and even if it's an open beta there are still very few enemies. The only true variety is coming from infested. Infested have chargers who can also stunnlock you but you don't talk about them for some reason. Back to topic this game is full of enemies that are nothing more but bullet sponges(sry DE but its kinda true, only for Grineer tho). Now that there is something somewhat new and challenging came out you want them to be easier to handle. They already die in 1 shot from most weaponry and they are not that hard to deal with. If DE ''fixes'' them they way you want to that will make Grineer waaay less offencive. Grineer only have those rollers that can bugg you and kill you with where infested have chargers,ancients, leapers, and even Corpus have Shock wave MOA and Rail gun MOA. Why take away the little variety that Grineer have just for few people comfort?

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
I have addressed chargers by saying that if they implement diminishing returns on stuns then it would also fix the stunlock issue with chargers.  It would also prevent the cheesing of bosses because then players would no longer be able to stunlock bosses/ancients.

Please read a bit better.

And they do bring much needed variety to the grineer forces.  That doesn't mean that DE shouldnt fix the stunlock mechanics.

[GoneM4d]

@GoneM4d

I have addressed chargers by saying that if they implement diminishing returns on stuns then it would also fix the stunlock issue with chargers.  It would also prevent the cheesing of bosses because then players would no longer be able to stunlock bosses/ancients.

Please read a bit better.

And they do bring much needed variety to the grineer forces.  That doesn't mean that DE shouldnt fix the stunlock mechanics.

ITS NOT THE ROLLERS FAULT THAT ANYONE GETS STUNNLOCKED! IT'S THE PLAYERS FOR NOT ADDRESSING THE ISSUE! 

 

Edit: When I say its players fault for not addressing the issue I mean that he should of dealt with rollers when he had time instead he waited to get stunlocked.

Edited May 13, 2013 by GoneM4d

[RealityMachina]

ITS NOT THE ROLLERS FAULT THAT ANYONE GETS STUNNLOCKED! IT'S THE PLAYERS FOR NOT ADDRESSING THE ISSUE!

...

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
Its not the players fault.  Its the fact that the mechanic is broken and allows for infinite stun lock.

[Nedwin]

I have Badass Idea:

-Leave rollers for those who have hands

-Other can download "special" patch for "special" people (you know what I mean)

[AndryB94]

ITS NOT THE ROLLERS FAULT THAT ANYONE GETS STUNNLOCKED! IT'S THE PLAYERS FOR NOT ADDRESSING THE ISSUE!

I find your lack of patience... Disturbing.

[GoneM4d]

@GoneM4d

Its not the players fault.  Its the fact that the mechanic is broken and allows for infinite stun lock.

@Tsukinoki

This is how you sum up player base that have problem with rollers.

Players sees rollers thinks '' Yeah I should totally not touch these rollers because what harm could they do. I should most defiantly leave them alone''. OMG WHAT IS HAPPENING? WHY AM I STUNNLOCKED? I should $#*(@ about it on forums because it's not my fault its game fault.

Edited May 13, 2013 by GoneM4d

[Bones98]

dual vipers does a good job at taking care of them.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
The stunlock mechanic goes both ways and my fix would also prevent users from stunlocking bosses so its not just a nerf call.  Furthermore a bad mechanic should be fixed.  When all it takes is a roller rolling you against a box to permanently stun you then there is an issue with the mechanic.  When a player can just spam e and perma stun a boss or high level ancient there is an issue with the mechanic.

A mechanic is bad when there are no redeeming qualities to keep it in the game.  And I am proposing a fix to the mechanic so that it becomes a good mechanic that punishes the player for being hit without unfairly killing the player.

[GoneM4d]

@Tsukinoki

F*** I'm done. It's like talking to a wall. But rest be assured. You are one Dense @&#(&*@#$#!

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
I wish I understood why you had to resort to insulting and name calling.  Generally people do that when they dont have a real argument to bring against the person they are debating/arguing against.  But good usage of an ad hominem to get your point across.

So far people haven't really proven that the stun mechanic is not broken.

If you can prove that the stun mechanic is working perfectly as it is currently implemented then I'll start listening.

But please do inform me of how being able to infinitely stunlock enemies and at the same time being vulnerable to infinite stunlocking is a mechanic that is working perfectly.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[AndryB94]

@Tsukinoki

F*** I'm done. It's like talking to a wall. But rest be assured. You are one Dense @(&*@#$#!

You are trying to defend rollers and their current existance (as well as the people defending them) but let me tell you two things... You aren't really helping it, and you sure aren't making a very good impression out there. Are you seriously resorting to insulting people and telling them their reasoning is flawed without backing it up? Wow.

[GoneM4d]

@GoneM4d

I wish I understood why you had to resort to insulting and name calling.  Generally people do that when they dont have a real argument to bring against the person they are debating/arguing against.  But good usage of an ad hominem to get your point across.

So far people haven't really proven that the stun mechanic is not broken.

If you can prove that the sun mechanic is working perfectly as it is currently implemented then I'll start listening.

But please do inform me of how being able to infinitely stunlock enemies and at the same time being vulnerable to infinite stunlocking is a mechanic that is working perfectly.

 

 

@GoneM4d

I wish I understood why you had to resort to insulting and name calling.  Generally people do that when they dont have a real argument to bring against the person they are debating/arguing against.  But good usage of an ad hominem to get your point across.

So far people haven't really proven that the stun mechanic is not broken.

If you can prove that the sun mechanic is working perfectly as it is currently implemented then I'll start listening.

But please do inform me of how being able to infinitely stunlock enemies and at the same time being vulnerable to infinite stunlocking is a mechanic that is working perfectly.

 

 

You are trying to defend rollers and their current existance (as well as the people defending them) but let me tell you two things... You aren't really helping it, and you sure aren't making a very good impression out there. Are you seriously resorting to insulting people and telling them their reasoning is flawed without backing it up? Wow.

The problem here is that I tried to resolve this peaceful  I tried explaing  The reason why I'm cursing is because I'm mad at this guy for not opening his eyes. His only argument is the stunlock which only has 20% of success and only 5% of killing you. Those numbers are that high because the only way to get stunnlocked is to ignore that unit completely  This guy and few others had a couple of times where they got stunnlocked because THEY ignored rollers and now trying to get them nerfed because of ''stunnlock'' which is an exuce for game being too hard for them. It would also appear that these people have only played in SOLO therefore it should come to no suprise to them that they got stunnlocked because they were trying to solo in a COOP based game. But my pal here is keen on seeing stunlock as isse for god knows what reason where in reality there is a 1% in average game to get stunnlocked and 0.5% to get killed  because of it. Each frame has a defensive ability that you can use to escape as well as ask your team to help. Stunlock is not the true issue the issue is that people cant hit it, cant dodge it, cant jump away from it because they are in need training. Yes training, get better whatever you want to call it. Just because a few people have this issue doesn't mean that whole other player base has it. This game supposed to be cheap, changing, awesome, hard because it requires you to be creative by giving you 8 different warfames, 32 different abilities  ability to climb, ability to wall run, ability to block, ability to shoot with weapons, use mele weaponry and so forth. If you have issue with rollers don't go to forums and try to get them nerfed because of ''stunlock'' go in to the game and find a way that YOU can deal WITH it. For me it was asking for help if I ever get stunlocked or climb high ground and shoot them off 1 by 1 or even use ability. It's not that hard. Now the funny but is that even tho I re-explained this for 3rd time maybe my pal here will still talk about ''stunlock'' issue that doesn't exist.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
And what about player caused stunlocking on bosses and ancients?

That is something else that adding diminishing returns would achieve to make some fights harder/more interesting/more fun instead of just mashing E to endlessly stunlock a boss.

Convienient how you just left out that part of the argument entirely....

And I do play in groups but that doesn't prevent them from being annoying, frustrating and unfun.  Also while stunned you cant use any abilities and they can blindside you and roll you against a crate until a friend can help, or if you are playing solo because your friends are offline and dont like doing pugs, or until you are dead.

Please tell me how the stun mechanic is not broken when you can go up to a boss and hit E to stun them and repeat until they are dead without them doing anything.
Please tell me how the stun mechanic is not broken when you can get stunlocked with zero way out of it.

The game can be challenging without being cheap.  There is a big difference between the two.

The stun is a bad mechanic because it does allow for people to be stunlocked.  And you forgot the chargers who can more easily stunlock you than rollers can...at least their stun has a chance of failing, but diminishing returns on stuns would also make the infested a lot more fun to fight.

Though I can imagine already that you're going to say "Lrn2play and dont melee infested".  I dont have a problem with chargers myself, they are easy to beat.  That still doesn't mean that the mechanic shouldn't be fixed.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Tsukinoki