<Underclocking Mods> (Mentioned On Livestream)

[Drakontis]

Love it. Possible problem though - what's to stop the player from simply migrating all that power to a new mod? I believe the devs want some form of permanence to your choices.

See, the thing about doing that though, is that it gives the same amount of fusion level as it would if you spent ALL those previous mods. If you put 12 mods to get that mod from 11 - 12 (I know it's unlikely, but bear with me), then it would give 12 mods worth of fusion to a base level mod. So you're keeping the EXACT same amount of fusion value from the previous mod, but you're able to reallocate it elsewhere at a pure cost of credits, rather than credits and wasting fusion value. 

[PapaKicks]

See, the thing about doing that though, is that it gives the same amount of fusion level as it would if you spent ALL those previous mods. If you put 12 mods to get that mod from 11 - 12 (I know it's unlikely, but bear with me), then it would give 12 mods worth of fusion to a base level mod. So you're keeping the EXACT same amount of fusion value from the previous mod, but you're able to reallocate it elsewhere at a pure cost of credits, rather than credits and wasting fusion value. 

 

I understood all of that from your original post. My point was I don't think the devs want you to be able to "respec" so easily.

[Tyrfalger]

I'll repost this here since the other thread I wrote this in was partly related. Anyway, the idea is that the devs could make a warframe/weapon attachable item (ergo like a potato) that allows for this underclocking of mods. 

 

Call it an Orokin Regulator? And to clarify, it'd probably be platinum purchasable. Whether or not blueprints for it would be available...dunno. You can just deal with having multiple sets of the mods, even if it is frustrating to do so. Devs gotta sell platinum items anyway.

 

Have it separate from the potato slots, or maybe not; maybe have this regulator be a slightly less powerful potato (lol.) at say, 1.5x your mod slots but with the ability to underclock. Then you have some choice between flexibility vs sheer mod slot power. 

[Cerenth]

I prefer this suggestion so very much over the solution suggested by DE in the livestream. Who would ever underclock their mods if it destroys the resources? If you're underclocking from max level to simply one level down, you'd have to invest all that money again -- not a feasible solution for certain mods such as Serration.

 

I understand that DE want to encourage players to keep playing, and so creating reasons for resource farming is a good idea. However, taking away something that the player has earned before is a fantastic way to frustrate them. The player has done all the hard work once already in upgrading their mods with a huge quantity of fusion cores and credits. Why should they do that again?

 

Even if it is voluntary, who would choose to create more work for themselves that way? I could only really see DE's solution as being viable for really low level mods. If it's not viable for all mods, why implement it at all? Nobody would use it for anything meaningful.

[Tyrian3k]

I prefer this suggestion so very much over the solution suggested by DE in the livestream. Who would ever underclock their mods if it destroys the resources? If you're underclocking from max level to simply one level down, you'd have to invest all that money again -- not a feasible solution for certain mods such as Serration.

 

I understand that DE want to encourage players to keep playing, and so creating reasons for resource farming is a good idea. However, taking away something that the player has earned before is a fantastic way to frustrate them. The player has done all the hard work once already in upgrading their mods with a huge quantity of fusion cores and credits. Why should they do that again?

 

Even if it is voluntary, who would choose to create more work for themselves that way? I could only really see DE's solution as being viable for really low level mods. If it's not viable for all mods, why implement it at all? Nobody would use it for anything meaningful.

 

I agree. I wouldn't want to downgrade a mod if it destroys everything.

Why? The one level that I remove needs exactly as much fusion power to be redone as a whole new mod would take to get to one level less, so I could just as well make a new mod and keep both.

 

The point of the Idea was that we can interchange mods between weapons easier and make it possible to switch between builds without having to have e.g. a Serration mod for each individual build.

 

Want to fight Infested instead of Grineer? Change from an AP damage mod to a fire damage mod. But on e.g. a shotgun, a fire damage mod costs 2 more power than the AP mod.

What to do? Downgrade and lose everything you invested? What if you want to change back to the AP mod? You'd have to upgrade your downgraded mod(s) again at the cost of loads of credits and fusion cores.

 

It would still be far easier to just make a new mod with the right level and swap them out. At least that way you don't completely destroy the progress you made with a mod.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Tyrian3k

[Worira]

I understood all of that from your original post. My point was I don't think the devs want you to be able to "respec" so easily.

 

Which runs completely contrary to the entire point of the mod system.

[Thelonious]

I don't understand the devs reaction in the livestream.

 

I can understand the actual mod ranking system is a way to extend the lifetime of the game, and therefore our playtime.

But it's artificial, it's only doing the same thing all over again

 

And farming becomes tedious and boring at some point, you can't ask players to rank up different mods for each and every weapon they have in their inventory, they'll just lose the joy of playing way before.

 

Plus, they get nothing from this: 

 

Does it make players buy credit boosters?

probably not, most players will get bored to death before having the slightest incentive to buy them.

 

Or Mod Packs?

lol, nope

 

Does it make players try other weapons/warframes, and therefore buy slots and potatoes?

quite the opposite actually: having to start again from scratch, not being able to fully profit from already ranked mods, only hurts the fun of getting a new toy to play with.

Heck, even switching mods between 2 maxed weapons is a pain in the butt after a while

 

So it only scares away a portion of the players who can't/don't want to invest that kind of time in the game.

 

Implementing an efficient "downclock" mod system, as proposed here, would be a nice gesture towards casual players.

Those are the primary revenue source of any f2p's after all: they're the one compensating their short playtime with convenience items (like buying warframes with plats cause they can't farm parts)

 

I really hope the devs will change their mind on the subject and agree with the community.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Thelonious

[ArsVampyre]

Underclock or don't bother.

[Salganos]

I'd have to be insane to want to permanently delevel any mod greater than level 4 ever.

 

False choices. Massive design trap. Bad idea.

 

I really want a goal to this game besides farming mods for builds I have no end-use for.  I don't want anything that enforces mod farming.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[PositronicSpleen]

This was discussed today (8 May 13) during the livestream. Via prestige'ing a warframe/weapon, players will be able to reset its level to 0 and re-level it to 30, but will be able to change one of its polarity slots to something else. This will be repeatable until you have the desired polarities.

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't like this idea? Warframe doesn't need more grinding and less balance. It's not really prestige since you're essentially getting more mod slots, it's more like a really inefficient level extension. It also takes away one of the things that makes each warframe unique.

[hywod]

This topic was mentioned in the livestream. Unfortunately, the DEvs wish to make this process destructive, meaning you will lose your rank (and cores invested) upon reducing a mod's power capacity.

 

A completely bone-headed response from the developers to this needed usability change.

 

This "under-clock" system and a way to "snapshot"/"save state" of load-outs is needed to remove busywork and make playing the game streamlined.

 

I do not generally have time/bother to experiment or even change frames much once I have a well working level-30 setup because of having to maintain dozens of duplicate pages of mods and de-equip, swap, and wade through those, re-equip, to get the suit or weapon setup in a good way. The frames and many weapons that I have are gathering dust, and that dust doesn't encourage me to purchase an additional slot, or spend time in the game, but just to dump the frame in order to try a new one for no money.

 

The emerald-city-green "under-clock potato" per item and red-ruby-slipper "snap-slot" would be money makers for DE (pay for less annoyance). Right now you'd only need 3-7 snap-slots to do pretty much anything functional (2-3 factions+1-2 defense+1-2 boss farm) in the game.

 

However, I feel that it should be built-in functionality and I think that they would side-sell more regular frames/weapons/potato/slots if this was just normally available within the game because together, these features encourage using what you have, while trying new things.

 

I hope that i have not gone off topic too much. Thank you.

 

Here's the segment in the Livestream: http://youtu.be/SesYNaURgLw?t=56m51s

Edited May 9, 2013 by hywod

[Fredlicious]

See, the thing about doing that though, is that it gives the same amount of fusion level as it would if you spent ALL those previous mods. If you put 12 mods to get that mod from 11 - 12 (I know it's unlikely, but bear with me), then it would give 12 mods worth of fusion to a base level mod. So you're keeping the EXACT same amount of fusion value from the previous mod, but you're able to reallocate it elsewhere at a pure cost of credits, rather than credits and wasting fusion value. 

 

The problem with this is that it would make it too easy to transfer power from one mod (e.g. Redirection) to another mod (e.g. Flow). It makes sense that the devs want your choice to level one mod to be exclusive with a choice to level another; this thread is about the problem with the choice of leveling a mod versus not leveling it.

 

 

I'd have to be insane to want to permanently delevel any mod greater than level 4 ever.

 

False choices. Massive design trap. Bad idea.

 

I really want a goal to this game besides farming mods for builds I have no end-use for.  I don't want anything that enforces mod farming.

 

Yeah, mathematically it would always be the wrong choice to perform reverse fusion (or, I guess, fission) on a mod. The fusion energy required by each rank is always double that of the previous rank, so you would require the same number of total rank 0 mods to have two mods ranked 9 and 10 as you would to have one rank 10->rank 9->rank 10; the former provides a permanent, re-usable solution, so there is no reason to ever use the latter. Both require an insane amount of grinding, so both solutions are in every way inferior to the "underclock" design.

[TheSteelPhantom]

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't like this idea? Warframe doesn't need more grinding and less balance. It's not really prestige since you're essentially getting more mod slots, it's more like a really inefficient level extension. It also takes away one of the things that makes each warframe unique.

 

I look at it this way: I'd rather grind out a weapon I like to play in order to make it better (via prestige'ing it) than drop it completely once it hits 30 because there's no incentive to keep playing it over leveling another weapon that I may not even care about.

[TehJumpingJawa]

If you ever intend to reverse a fission, then yes using the fission in the first place is an idiotic choice.

Expecting players to fabricate mods at every power level (for greater warframe loadout flexibility) is a very artificial lengthening of the farming life cycle. (precisely doubling(-1) the number of mods need)

It also clutters the mod inventory & exposes numerous shortcomings of the interface.

DE could allow the underclocking mechanic suggested here AND keep the farming life cycle the same length by simply:

1) halving the drop rate of mods
or
2) require twice as many mods at each fusing level.

A really neat benefit of the underclocking mechanic is that players would only ever need to keep one instance of any given mod.

If this were taken to its natural conclusion, the entire mod UI could be overhauled to be far simpler & much less micromanagement intensive.
You'd be able to get rid of the scrolling inventory system entirely, and replace it with statically arranged & neatly laid out categorized pages of the mods.
Initially these pages would have greyed out silhouettes of the mods you hadn't yet acquired, and would gradually fill out as you picked up each mod. (akin to sticker/cigarette card collection books)
Duplicates would automatically boost the maximum level of any mods you already possessed.
General purpose fusion mods could still exist, but would simply be represented as a separate counter, and would be expended to boost mods of your choosing.

I should knock up a mock up to better demonstrate this idea... words don't do justice to its elegant simplicity.

Edited May 9, 2013 by TehJumpingJawa

[Fredlicious]

Bump. This topic should not die.

[Cerenth]

Just to show how ridiculous DE's idea is, here is a screenshot of the final upgrade stage of Hornet Strike.

 

 

Obviously, such a mod is very desirable on any sidearm, and as such it takes a lot of effort to upgrade it to maximum. However, under the proposed system from DE, underclocking would DESTROY the equivalent of 482 Uncommon 5 fusion cores, and waste 1,768,200 credits that were expended in the final stage of the prior fusion process. In addition to this, if the player wanted to reupgrade their mod to the final level again, they would have to use the same number of ingredients and credits again. In total, to underclock ONE mod by ONE level and then upgrade it again, the player would have to have expended 964 Uncommon 5 fusion cores and 3,535,400 credits.

 

Is this reasonable?

 

Is this feasible?

 

Is this fair?

 

Is it right to force the player to refarm to such ridiculous extents in order to regain what they had already achieved? I don't know about anybody else, but being forced to do this wouldn't make me play more -- it'd make me play less.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

DE's "destroy your mod level by one" method is just gonna be completely ignored. No rational person is ever gonna use it.

 

I really can't see why DE wants us to keep multiple duplicates of the same mods for multiple items.

 

It's not like it's fun hunting for a mod.

 

It's not like the grind is the thing that adds to the gameplay or anything.

 

It is the variety in enemies, items, mods and occasional teamwork that does that.

 

It just makes switching and leveling up frames and weapons a real chore.

 

I have quite a number of weapons and frames which are just left untouched because I can't be bothered to have to farm for their mods when my current items already can provide me with what I need for missions.

[Dousiq]

This game needs an OVERCLOCKING feature, especially if we're going to be able to add polarities to frames and weapons. I don't want to end up with 10 leftover points on a potato'd frame or weapon simply because I've reset it so many times that all my favorite maxed-out mods are half-cost due to polarity placement.

[Rabbitslayer]

This game needs an OVERCLOCKING feature, especially if we're going to be able to add polarities to frames and weapons. I don't want to end up with 10 leftover points on a potato'd frame or weapon simply because I've reset it so many times that all my favorite maxed-out mods are half-cost due to polarity placement.

Would this include your gun/warframe bursting into flame if done incorrectly? That would be pretty neat.

Also, what Cerenth said.

[Kaidinah]

I do not approve of it being destructive. Not one bit. I don't care if it costs credits. I just don't want to lose my progress.

[Worira]

Actually, I would not want it to use credits just because it would make it way more of a hassle to implement into a loadout system that could use it in multiple frames/weapons at once.

[Habba]

Why not giving every mod one more Stage , the Uber-Stage ? You have to Upgrdae a mod to this level , to be able to downgrade it at anytime .

[3Jane]

Imo I think its because Presets UI will come back, work properly and make this somewhat redundant. 

 

Then your mods will be switched to other Warframes instantly, sure you'll still need the different levels of mods for each build though. Turning them up and down sounds like a nightmare for them to sort out really.

[TenStorms]

Well...how about keeping things easy ?

 

What about adding a new type of "core"...lets call it "scaling core", or maybe "flexibility core".

 

Just fusion it to your mod you want to scale, and from now on, that mod is scalable, meaning your can fit it to your needs

OR

you can scale your mod one time per "scaling core". Thus you will always need at least two cores to scale it up and later down again.

 

That would need at least 1 new optical marker on the mods. You have to see a mod that is runnning at downgraded power to be optical distinguished from mods running at max power, so i can see which mods i can shift up later.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Ten_Storms

[crow-k]

I don't know about this. Would it make things easier, yes most definitely. If they did this would I use it? Without a doubt. Didn't they already say no, we want you to have meaningful choices with real consequences? Yes they did. And I can see where they are coming from. If you can just :"clock them" why have more than 1 of each? It is part of the time/credit sink that they use to keep things moving around. This issue will also become less of an issue with the prestige/paragon system. That in and of itself may solve the problem with use of time and effort to add depth to your frame.