Adding Consistency To Mods, Removing The Rng And Making Them Reliable

[Xrylene]

Alongside the attempt I and others are making to see crit changed from a random mechanic into a headshot based one, I'd like to tackle removing RNG from the mods that use it.

 

Multishot, as it stands, is essentially additive crit chance under a different name, unlike crit it is equally effective for all guns, and it is possible to achieve a 100% chance, at least with pistols and shotguns, and it's not random, though it could still be more consistent. It's current function is as a massive damage multiplier, since it is applied last in the damage equation. Currently, normal damage boosts the base damage of the weapon, elemental damage is based off of the boosted base damage, and then multishot doubles all of that damage again, making it disgustingly powerful once you have a well modded gun.

 

Currently, although it doesn't apply to every shot, multishot provides a 20/40/60/80/100/120% DPS increase. What I propose, is to change it to a guarantee, not only will there always be an extra shot, but it should double the shots fired by the weapon, meaning the Kraken would fire four shots, and the Burston/Sicarus would fire six. Each shot, including your normal shots, would deal 60/70/80/90/100/110% damage, meaning that at lower ranks it decreases the damage of each bullet individually, but the extra rounds still result in a net damage increase. This also means that it results in a 20/40/60/80/100/120% damage increase, so the same as it is now. The catch, however, is I propose that the mod capacity cost should be reduced to a more reasonable cost, in exchange for the extra rounds taking up actual ammo, though I'd suggest the extra rounds be taken directly from your max ammo pool rather than the clip to maintain the same number of shots per clip. This would mean you would be converting ammo efficiency for a massive damage boost, and with the higher ranks, would actually gain ammo efficiency rather than lose it. In a sense, it would be like a burst version of a fire rate mod.

 

As for the stun mods, I propose they be made into a guaranteed stun as well, but with two important limitations. The first, is that the stun effect should proc only when landing a headshot, or limb shot in the case of infested. The second, which is to prevent permanent stunning with higher fire rate weapons, is it should have a cooldown on the same enemy, sort of like how you have a period after knocking an enemy down with the flying kick during which they cannot be knocked down again. This period would probably be about 3 seconds after the stun effect ends. As for what leveling this mod would do, it would affect the stun duration, with the scaling being 0.25/0.5/0.75/1/1.25/1.5. In the case of melee, this effect could be tied to charged attacks, stealth attacks, and possibly even be added onto knockdowns.

 

Edit: Updating this thread with the two new RNG based mods.

 

So, Thunderbolt. Explosive Paris arrows you say? Sounds pretty cool. Except for one critical problem. Of course, it had to be RNG, a 7.5% chance per rank, maxing at 30%, on an accuracy based slow firing weapon is an awful idea. There are two simple ways to fix this, either make it explode on every shot, and scale the AoE or damage percentage with rank, or make it only explode if you overcharge the shot, with ranks doing the same thing as the previous suggestion, or reducing the charge time, or both.

 

Then there's Retribution, a combination of a lot of bad decisions. So, let's get this straight, it only works when your shields are up, it only works against melee(so almost entirely Infested), it does electrical damage(so is pretty worthless versus the main melee faction), and even then, it's a 15% chance per rank of actually working, maxing at 60%. So 40% of the time, it doesn't even do anything, and when it does it's weak against the one thing it would be good against. My suggestion here is, ditch the chance part first of course, and ditch the anti-melee specific clause. Instead, since it depends on shields, why not make it cause an explosive discharge when your shields drop, stunning enemies nearby and dealing some damage. Then, it would actually be useful as well as reliable. ranking it up could increase stun duration and AoE.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Xrylene

[Cytancy]

Multishot is not RNG based. Stun mod proposition is unfair to weapons that were intended to most fully utilize them: fast weapons with other tradeoffs. Instead of favoring high RoF, it will instead favor high accuracy weapons.  

[Xrylene]

Multishot is not RNG based. Stun mod proposition is unfair to weapons that were intended to most fully utilize them: fast weapons with other tradeoffs. Instead of favoring high RoF, it will instead favor high accuracy weapons.  

 

I've heard some people say that multishot is not random, but increases by it's percentage per shot and fires an extra shot at 100%. I've heard others say it's fully random. As I have confirmation on neither of those, I'm going with the assumption that it's most likely random. Even failing that, you appear to have no comment on the mechanic I suggest itself, a high reliability version, with the further suggestion that it's capacity be made reasonable through a trade off.

 

As for stun, a high rate of fire weapon would still allow stuns on many targets in a short period, no? Some minor accuracy might be required, but sweeping say, a Grakata, or a Viper, over the heads of a group of Grineer would allow you to stun all of them, while something like say, a Lex, Hek, or Latron wouldn't have anywhere near the rate of fire to do that, even if they are quite accurate against a single target. In other words, it makes it viable for both, rather than only being usable on bullet hoses.

[Story4]

Hello,I just have a suggestion about multishot.

Why not make it consume double ammo per bullet every time, but the higher the level the higher the chance that it will consume only 1 bullet per shot, maybe at max level there is a 50% chance?

This way you still get constant damage because you fire 2 shots instead of 1, but you will deal more dps over time because basically you will have 300 ammunition instead of 200.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Story4

[Xrylene]

Hello,I just have a suggestion about multishot.

Why not make it consume double ammo per bullet every time, but the higher the level the higher the chance that it will consume only 1 bullet per shot, maybe at max level there is a 50% chance?

This way you still get constant damage because you fire 2 shots instead of 1, but you will deal more dps over time because basically you will have 300 ammunition instead of 200.

 

So, in a thread about removing RNG, you propose adding additional RNG? You know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, right?

 

The current suggestion makes it so that leveling the mod gives you more efficiency as it is, there's no reason to make it suddenly and randomly not use the extra ammo. Remember as well that I suggest that it's capacity cost be decreased, so instead of starting at 10, it might start at 6.

[Story4]

So, in a thread about removing RNG, you propose adding additional RNG? You know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, right?

 

The current suggestion makes it so that leveling the mod gives you more efficiency as it is, there's no reason to make it suddenly and randomly not use the extra ammo. Remember as well that I suggest that it's capacity cost be decreased, so instead of starting at 10, it might start at 6.

 

Yeah i understood, i was just making a suggestion. Also it's not RNG for additional damage, it's RNG to not consume so much ammo. So you deal double damage with each shot, but have less ammo, with a chance to not consume ammo for 2 bullets and just consume 1.

And i did read your post, but if the damage would be the same, then why change it? The only thing different would be the ammo consumption, which could very well be put in place right now.

[Xrylene]

Yeah i understood, i was just making a suggestion. Also it's not RNG for additional damage, it's RNG to not consume so much ammo. So you deal double damage with each shot, but have less ammo, with a chance to not consume ammo for 2 bullets and just consume 1.

And i did read your post, but if the damage would be the same, then why change it? The only thing different would be the ammo consumption, which could very well be put in place right now.

 

The reason for "why change it" is to make it consistent. The fact that it can be made consistent, without losing out on damage, is actually a good thing, because that means the change is much easier to make, since it would not alter balance. The other change of trading the extra shots consuming ammo for the lower capacity should be fair, I think, seeing as it SHOULD have a high cost for what it does, being a massive multiplier to your total damage, however an ammo cost is more in line than a massive capacity cost, the high capacity cost restricts options.

 

As for the ammo thing, couldn't that be a mod in itself? Every x shots do not use ammo, with a scaling like 8/7/6/5/4/3, effectively, this would act as a 12.5/14.3/16.7/20/25/33.3% boost to your ammo, which would also work with ammo pickups in a sense, and would be even more effective when used together with the other ammo mods. This would also, once again, make it not depend on RNG to get the job done, and is simple enough to understand. That's an example of the kind of direction you could take it instead.

[Ced23Ric]

A quick rundown how Multishot works.

 

75% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ...

 

90% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ...

[Story4]

The reason for "why change it" is to make it consistent. The fact that it can be made consistent, without losing out on damage, is actually a good thing, because that means the change is much easier to make, since it would not alter balance. The other change of trading the extra shots consuming ammo for the lower capacity should be fair, I think, seeing as it SHOULD have a high cost for what it does, being a massive multiplier to your total damage, however an ammo cost is more in line than a massive capacity cost, the high capacity cost restricts options.

 

As for the ammo thing, couldn't that be a mod in itself? Every x shots do not use ammo, with a scaling like 8/7/6/5/4/3, effectively, this would act as a 12.5/14.3/16.7/20/25/33.3% boost to your ammo, which would also work with ammo pickups in a sense, and would be even more effective when used together with the other ammo mods. This would also, once again, make it not depend on RNG to get the job done, and is simple enough to understand. That's an example of the kind of direction you could take it instead.

 

Yeah i was thinking about that myself. Since you said that the mod would take up 6 slots instead of 6, you could add another mod that makes you not consume ammo. And 50% could be made into every 2 shots 1 doesn't consume ammo. Same thing really. BUT the problem is that leveling them both might take up too many mod slots and capacity, which is why i was suggesting making it an integral part of the multi-shot system and keeping the same capacity cost.

 

 

 

"A quick rundown how Multishot works.

 

75% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ...

 

90% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ..."

 

So it ain't random after all? And we were having all these great discussions...

Edited May 3, 2013 by Story4

[Xrylene]

A quick rundown how Multishot works.

 

75% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 1 ...

 

90% Multishot equipped. Sequence of bullets:

2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ; 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 ...

 

I guess I'll take this as confirmation that what I was told about it before was true then? Regardless, is there somehow something wrong with making it a consistent boost on EVERY shot, rather than not taking effect every x shots? And what of the other part I proposed? It seems like people are getting too hung up on this, and not responding to what the actual suggestion is.

[Ced23Ric]

My point is, MS is not RNG. It is very direct and "clean". Crit chance, on the other hand, is muddy and murky. God knows what's going on there. Stun, I could not tell you a single word about - I prefer damage/kill over stun/CC.

[Story4]

I guess I'll take this as confirmation that what I was told about it before was true then? Regardless, is there somehow something wrong with making it a consistent boost on EVERY shot, rather than not taking effect every x shots? And what of the other part I proposed? It seems like people are getting too hung up on this, and not responding to what the actual suggestion is.

 

I'm responding to the actual suggestion. Since it already is a guarantee to fire 2 shots every x shots, it would be better IMO to change the mod to constantly fire 2 shots for each click, but consume 2 ammo for each click, but increasing the level of the mod adds a chance to not consume ammo every 5,4,3,2 hits.

 

I like but's.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Story4

[Xrylene]

I'm responding to the actual suggestion. Since it already is a guarantee to fire 2 shots every x shots, it would be better IMO to change the mod to constantly fire 2 shots for each click, but consume 2 ammo for each click, but increasing the level of the mod adds a chance to not consume ammo every 5,4,3,2 hits.

 

I like but's.

 

Look, I really don't think you get it. Consistency? That's a good thing. We don't need things like that as a chance based mechanic, there's so much room for reliable mechanics that it just simply isn't necessary.

 

I updated my opening post to cover the two new RNG based mods, as well as edit out the association of multishot with RNG.

[Argoms]

Multishot is RNG. Use a bolt weapon with it, and count how many times you multishot in a row. It's not a consistent pattern at the moment, maybe this was changed recently.

[Xrylene]

Multishot is RNG. Use a bolt weapon with it, and count how many times you multishot in a row. It's not a consistent pattern at the moment, maybe this was changed recently.

 

See, this is what I mean when I say I get mixed responses on it, every second person says it's RNG, so I mad the thread initially with that in mind, but the other half say it's not, and one is a moderator so may be more likely to know what they're talking about. Without proper testing or direct word from DE, it's difficult to know on some things.

 

Either way, I'd appreciate it if I could get some feedback on what I'm actually suggesting, most of this thread seems to just be talking about whether multishot is RNG or not.

[Xrylene]

Updated once more in light of Argom's proof that Multishot is in fact, RNG.

[DarthZ]

See, this is what I mean when I say I get mixed responses on it, every second person says it's RNG, so I mad the thread initially with that in mind, but the other half say it's not, and one is a moderator so may be more likely to know what they're talking about. Without proper testing or direct word from DE, it's difficult to know on some things.

 

Either way, I'd appreciate it if I could get some feedback on what I'm actually suggesting, most of this thread seems to just be talking about whether multishot is RNG or not.

 

 

From the wiki:

 

Multishot is a feature that weapons do not normally possess, but can be added through equipped mods. Multishot adds one or more additional bullets, bolts, or pellets to each shot fired. These additional projectiles do not consume any extra ammunition.

 

For rifles and pistols, excluding the Bronco, every shot fired has a percent chance to fire an additional bullet or bolt equal to the value listed on the equipped mod. Where the value exceeds 100%, there is a chance to fire a third additional bullet or bolt.

(My comment: Essentially a Lex at 80% has an 80% chance at 2, at 100% always fires 2, at 120% will always fire at least 2 with a 20% chance to fire 3)

 

For shotguns and the Bronco pistol, each shot fired is increased by a number of pellets equal to the value listed on the equipped mod. Any fractions are converted into a chance to fire an additional pellet, e.g. a Boar with a 120% multishot mod would fire 13.2 pellets, or 13 with a 20% chance to fire a 14th.

Edited May 10, 2013 by DarthZ

[Xrylene]

From the wiki:

 

Multishot is a feature that weapons do not normally possess, but can be added through equipped mods. Multishot adds one or more additional bullets, bolts, or pellets to each shot fired. These additional projectiles do not consume any extra ammunition.

 

For rifles and pistols, excluding the Bronco, every shot fired has a percent chance to fire an additional bullet or bolt equal to the value listed on the equipped mod. Where the value exceeds 100%, there is a chance to fire a third additional bullet or bolt.

(My comment: Essentially a Lex at 80% has an 80% chance at 2, at 100% always fires 2, at 120% will always fire at least 2 with a 20% chance to fire 3)

 

For shotguns and the Bronco pistol, each shot fired is increased by a number of pellets equal to the value listed on the equipped mod. Any fractions are converted into a chance to fire an additional pellet, e.g. a Boar with a 120% multishot mod would fire 13.2 pellets, or 13 with a 20% chance to fire a 14th.

 

This post is rather ironic. The post you quoted asked for people to respond to the actual suggestion in this thread, as so far everyone is hung up on how multishot works. And yet, here you are, trying to explain to me how Multishot works off of the wiki page that anyone can edit. Argoms already showed how it worked in his/her thread.