My Concern For Warframe: A Lesson From Hellgate (Tldr Included)

[securitywyrm]

I'd like to take a moment to express a concern I have about Warframe, and it has to do with my experiences in the game Hellgate. Hellgate is quite similar to Warframe in game structure. Slightly more loot and class intensive but otherwise effectively the same. Hellgate is a ghost town, and I'd like to see Warframe avoid that fate.

 

TL:DR: Without mechanics to enable players to quickly and easily find people to play with, and mechanics to significantly reward teamwork, you lose the multiplayer part of the MMO and it has to stand on its own as a singleplayer game.

 

I'd like to introduce a term I use in multiplayer games: The COD (Call of Duty) effect. The COD effect is where each player is just playing by and for themselves, with other players on their team existing only as decoys for enemy fire at best, and things blocking your shot at worst.

An example of the COD effect: It's a capture the flag game, and you've got the flag. You're running back to your base, and three of your allies are running with you. Oddly, none of them return fire when an enemy starts shooting at you. Eventually you get picked off by a sniper and they have a rush to see who grabs the flag. None of them were supporting you, they were just hoping you died so they could get the flag and thus the capture points. It wasn't about the team win, it was just about the possibility that they would get the flag capture points. They would have teamkilled you to grab the flag if they could have.

Now consider the last time that someone was rushing so far ahead of you that you were just running through empty rooms the whole map. How about the defense map where nobody coordinates and just does their own thing. That's the COD effect: players are treating it like a single player game with above-average bots on their side.

 

Let's examine some of the psychology of gaming as well. The majority of players will pursue whatever activity rewards the most points. You can have mechanics A, B and C that reward teamwork, but if mechanic D rewards solo play far above mechanics A, B and C, then players will continue to ignore team objectives and 'do their own thing.' An excellent example of this is Planetside 2. Though there are lots of little rewards for pursuing team objectives, all of those little rewards together are outweighed by the reward of just running around looking for easy enemy kills.

Currently in Warframe, rushing ahead of the rest of the party has the best rewards. You get the most experience per minute, and if a player encounters trouble they just let the rest of the party catch up, clear the problem, then rush ahead of them again. It's hard to say this behavior is 'wrong' because it is the behavior that yields the highest in-game rewards.

 

So let's get to the game in the title: Hellgate. Hellgate had a very dedicated player base and even when it shut down in the United States (due to incompetence bordering on fraud by the licensing company rather than any defects in the game), it continued to be very popular in Korea and eventually returned as Hellgate Global. Currently it is still operational, but it has the major cost advantage in that all the development is done in for the Korean market and the global market just needs to be translated. Compare this to Warframe, which is still incurring developmental costs.

 

In Hellgate, what led to the decline of the game was the difficulty in finding players to team up with. The looking for team interface was difficult to use and often filled with AFK players. Since the missions scaled to the number of players, it was best to just run a mission solo and if someone joins you, okay. It became a single player game where occasionally someone drops in (sound familiar?)

 

I suppose if I could say one thing to the developers, it is the middle initial of an MMO is the most important. World of Warcraft exists as the behemoth of online gaming because it is the behemoth of online gaming. No matter how 'good' a game is that comes out, people will go play a game where they can play with their friends. The primary consideration in the game, even beyond gameplay, is how quickly and easily you can make or meet up with friends and play with them.

[Shion963]

IMO this is why they have Clans.

 

EDIT: and AFAIK Warframe uses a radial experience share system, where teammates who are closer by to the player who kills an enemy gets more than one who is far away. I'd say that that encourages teams to stick together, as it's easier to find drops with four pairs of eyes in one room, rather than one ahead and three running behind him.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Shion963

[Story4]

Don't know if i agree on the Warframe-Hellgate comparison since i haven't played Hellgate, but on the "CoD effect" as you put it i have nothing to complain. Good read and i agree, players should be rewarded more for sticking together rather than going ahead. An example in the capture the flag, a better system would be for all the players escorting and defending to get the same amount of points as the player who captures the flag, when the flag is captured, since it is a team-effort. What would have happened if no one defended?

[Phoenix86]

I have to agree with ya, i bought and played Hellgate London when it came out back in 2007,

mainly because it was made by the creators of Diablo 1/2 and secondly because of the 'innovative gameplay' it introduced.

 

Like you said i agree that team making and cooperation was what that game really lacked and i admit i feel it too here (not much, but i feel it).

Further more Hellgate had a bunch of other problem that Warframe luckly doesnt have.

 

Back to Warframe: i agree once again that we need to feel 'the need of being in team' else it will fall short soon or later and ofc a more user friendly interface to talk & interact with clan mates and other ppl online is needed (if not now it will be soon)

 

I really hope this game will not end like Hellgate London... i really hope.

[securitywyrm]

Don't know if i agree on the Warframe-Hellgate comparison since i haven't played Hellgate, but on the "CoD effect" as you put it i have nothing to complain. Good read and i agree, players should be rewarded more for sticking together rather than going ahead. An example in the capture the flag, a better system would be for all the players escorting and defending to get the same amount of points as the player who captures the flag, when the flag is captured, since it is a team-effort. What would have happened if no one defended?

 

Ah, that's the thing with a lot of players. They don't care if nobody defends. All that matters is that THEY get the points.

This can be seen painfully in Planetside 2. To capture a base, two people need to stand at each capture point for about a minute to flip the base (for a small base). So picture 40 people come rolling into a base loaded up in tanks and personnel carriers and on their ATVs... and then nothing. Nobody goes for the capture points. Why? There's no 'point' to it. When the base flips, everyone in the region on the flipping side gets the points, so there's zero incentive to actually be the one standing on the point. On the other hand, if there's a few defenders, you'll get lots of points for killing them. So picture this: rows of tanks constantly firing at the exit of the defenders spawn area hoping to 'get lucky' and get a kill as someone tries to exit to defend the base, and maybe one person on one of the capture points. Why? Because statistically, those people just shooting at the spawn area will get more points than the people who go stand on the capture spots.

It's an excellent example of "A B and C encourage teamwork, but D says that if you ignore the team you'll get way more points."

 

How about this: A 'momentum' bonus. If you stick with the same team, you start getting stacking bonuses.

[Phoenix86]

I would suggest devs to look at Global Agenda, it has a very similar fast paced fights, very strong enemies (other players), very specific role classes and therefore a highly team work and player's sinergy

[Story4]

 

How about this: A 'momentum' bonus. If you stick with the same team, you start getting stacking bonuses.

 

 

Yeah but then you will have grievers not moving just to make other players waste time because they will all want to stay together to get the biggest bonuses, or if you have a smaller team of 2 or 3 people you will get lower bonuses than with 4, even if the map is as difficult.

I think it would be better for the bonus to have a limit, but increase in rate the more players are near you. For example, if you have 4 players they will need to stay together for 5 minutes to reach the limit, but if there are just 2 players they will need to stay together for 10 minutes. This way it awards players for staying together but doesn't limit teams that have a smaller number.

Also it makes you want to play with friends more since you have better bonuses, bringing more players in warframe.

[Oz270]

I agree with the OP completely
So far the affinity radius rewards are not useful at all at the end game or higher levels.
This game needs more of a hook or incentive to keep people together.

[Loswaith]

The current grouping awards are quite good... however it's not clear that is what you are getting, so its quite possible allot of people simply dont know about it (getting players in the habit eairly can lead to keeping those habits in the later game).

 

Aside from Trinity the Warframes also dont have good obvious Synergy (even trinity needs the group to know whats going on), they do have great newance synergy however (but newances can be missed).

 

Ultimatly though even in 4 player matches you dont actually need anyone else.  If your the one racing ahead you almost never get in over your head (atleast thats what I've seen), so obviously if its not dangerous to do so then it will be done.  Basically there is little co-dependancy between players, and I think this is part of the larger issue, which often makes me think 'are the warframes just too powerful'.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Loswaith

[Phoenix86]

Well Mag + Excalibur have a very nice Sinergy (Bullet Attractor + Radial Javelin)

 

Another easy sinergy could be between Frost and Volt, since water conduct electricity, (think about ice wave + electric shield making an ice electrically charged  stunning wave! or Snow Globe + Shock, sending out Bolt that both shock + freeze the target!)

 

Another could be between Ember Fire Blast + Slash Dash/Rhino Charge (setting the warframe on fire dealing addition AoE burning on their path with a fire explosion at the end!)

 

There are many ways to sinergize frames and to induct players to play as a team!

[AberforthBrixby]

The easiest way to encourage teamplay in my opinion, is simply to raise the difficulty.

 

As it stands, with all the ridiculous mods tripling shields and health and damage and what have you, team members for the majority of the game up until pluto are simply a convenience, as the game difficulty isn't any harder than it is in solo.

 

The remedy? Use the Borderlands system. Enemy damage/health/population directly scale in regards to the amount of players in the map. If there are 4 players, the enemies should be doing way more damage than if there is just one.

 

Anyone who rushes would just get blown to smithereens.

 

Make it so if you want to advance to that next room, you have to wait for your teammates to coordinate firepower. Its cool to be able to gibslash my way through a room but it makes having a party simply pointless.

Edited May 3, 2013 by AberforthBrixby

[Mietz]

Let's examine some of the psychology of gaming as well. The majority of players will pursue whatever activity rewards the most points. You can have mechanics A, B and C that reward teamwork, but if mechanic D rewards solo play far above mechanics A, B and C, then players will continue to ignore team objectives and 'do their own thing.' An excellent example of this is Planetside 2. Though there are lots of little rewards for pursuing team objectives, all of those little rewards together are outweighed by the reward of just running around looking for easy enemy kills.

Currently in Warframe, rushing ahead of the rest of the party has the best rewards. You get the most experience per minute, and if a player encounters trouble they just let the rest of the party catch up, clear the problem, then rush ahead of them again. It's hard to say this behavior is 'wrong' because it is the behavior that yields the highest in-game rewards.

 

I don't see how the statement can be made that rushing ahead gives you the best (XP) rewards.

 

Solo XPs are inherently worse than group XPs since you get 100% XP from team kills + assist bonus + group bonus. Sticking around your team gives higher XP than running ahead and gunning down enemies on your own.

 

Not to mention pickups are distributed amongst all group members so running ahead solo will not net you any more or less credits than you would by sticking together.

 

In theory you can not shoot a single enemy and still gain XP from kills that your team-mates do as long as you stick around and support your team. This mechanic is for support frames like Rhino or Trinity that have lower DPS output and no AOE ultimate.

 

Rushing a level will not grant you better XP/min, in fact it will grant you worse XP/min (unless you are running with first time players on mercury).

 

Why people rush is not for better XP, it's for 

 

a. completion (bosses, alerts)

b. fun

 

The current design of the game has a problem in so far as it has a very low challenge in mid-high level content.

Facing the enemy hordes alone (increased difficulty due to increased spawns in groups) provides a better challenge than running solo or sticking with a group.

 

Right now you are a whirling machine of death, unless we are talking wave 25+ on endless defense, and with 4 whirling machines of death the combat becomes -very- easy to the point of unengaging as targets die left and right and you don't feel/see the contribution.

 

An increase of challenge in group missions is whats going to stop solo rushers, not XP rewards.

Make it -necessary- for survival/progress to stick together instead of the "eh, i could do this alone" level of challenge we have now.

 

You have the wrong solution for the right problem.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Mietz

[DaveC]

Please see my thread

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38715-well-im-officially-bored/#entry367373

[McCrabby]

Well Mag + Excalibur have a very nice Sinergy (Bullet Attractor + Radial Javelin)

 

Another easy sinergy could be between Frost and Volt, since water conduct electricity, (think about ice wave + electric shield making an ice electrically charged  stunning wave! or Snow Globe + Shock, sending out Bolt that both shock + freeze the target!)

 

Another could be between Ember Fire Blast + Slash Dash/Rhino Charge (setting the warframe on fire dealing addition AoE burning on their path with a fire explosion at the end!)

 

There are many ways to sinergize frames and to induct players to play as a team!

 

Ooohhh, i like this idea.  Basically you're suggesting a "power combo" system kind of like in Mass Effect 3?  

 

Of course, this is still useless if the game is too easy to solo.  Luckily, OP, people have been complaining about the difficulty for a while now, and I think DE is looking into that.  They could scale difficulty according to number of players, like someone suggested, or have difficulty settings for the missions.  Higher difficulty would be too hard to solo, but give better drops and rewards.

[Icaelus]

Rushers - I admit to being one of them unfortunately. I simply love the fast paced action of tearing through the mobs. But it is only because that it is possible to do it. I personally like teams and squads and all that, but it only slows the pace which we get through a level. 

The remedy to this problem would be to raise the difficulty, is what I think. Currently, I can just walk through levels cutting and gunning everything down while remaining a good bit ahead of my team. The problem? Enemies don't target me well enough. In solo mode, I have to play carefully and seek out cover, cause those damn Grineer and Corpus are running some aimbot S#&$ there, damn.

There could be some other solutions..I'll probs get flamed for this, but a pretty annoying solution would be bringing back the Grineer Nervos. They did the job of making sure you died if you got caught by one of them, and happened to be significantly far ahead enough for your team to not be able to reach you. Left For Dead style disabling, yeah? It does the job of making sure you want to stick in a team :P.

Just my two cents :).

[Mietz]

Rushers - I admit to being one of them unfortunately. I simply love the fast paced action of tearing through the mobs. But it is only because that it is possible to do it. I personally like teams and squads and all that, but it only slows the pace which we get through a level. 

The remedy to this problem would be to raise the difficulty, is what I think. Currently, I can just walk through levels cutting and gunning everything down while remaining a good bit ahead of my team. The problem? Enemies don't target me well enough. In solo mode, I have to play carefully and seek out cover, cause those damn Grineer and Corpus are running some aimbot S#&$ there, damn.

There could be some other solutions..I'll probs get flamed for this, but a pretty annoying solution would be bringing back the Grineer Nervos. They did the job of making sure you died if you got caught by one of them, and happened to be significantly far ahead enough for your team to not be able to reach you. Left For Dead style disabling, yeah? It does the job of making sure you want to stick in a team :P.

Just my two cents :).

 

I think a leaping enemy that clings to you would be ok as long as its large enough to be shot off by team-mates and obvious looking.

 

Something like a face-hugger but the size of the players chest, glowing preferably, slowly either draining shields, energy or HP (depending on type), slowing down the warframe.

2 or more could disable a player from moving and go into a panic strangling animation where help from other team-mates would be required.

 

Make them spawn in group missions only.

 

Oh and no rolling to get the thing off like with the mines.

[Judopunch]

When and if difficulty is up'd teamplay may play a larger roll. The problem now is except for 3 or so planets most of the content is a joke if your maxed out.