Nerfing Nova For The Sake Of Challenging Missions.

[akira_him]

deleted post

Edited January 30, 2015 by akira_him

[LisRestall]

-snip-

 

Going by your logic, we can also simply say Ash is also squishy because he just got 150 more base health compared to Nova at Rank 30 with the same 65 armor, we all know 150 health is nothing in the Voids. Adding Vitality is what makes Ash actually tanky and he fully relies on this mod to be tanky but outside that, he's actually squishy. So should I also say Vitality mod is what you'd also call unhealthy element to the game?

 

You see QT is actually balanced. Why? It is risking your energy which can also be a source of your survivability. Ironically, best example would still be Nova and her Mprime. QT isn't just some broken mod, it also has it's drawbacks. While Vitality mod cannot catch up to what QT can do for high energy frames, at least it doesn't have drawbacks.

 

 

deleted post

Let me just tell you this, ITS NOT easy. I still take around 2-3s to kill a heavy under Mprime. Even stray bullets complete shreds Nova's shields and I would be left tanking with my energy alone, of course I need to dodge too so I would survive that long but the point is, she isn't that squishy if built right. Quick Thinking is a mod available for anyone's use, utilize it, it simply removes Nova's squishiness.

[Kasumi-]

You don't get it. The problem is Nova being able to create something as EZgaming, is it really that hard to comprehend?

 

If she needs a nerf because of "EZ Gaming" then so does:

 

-Trinity

-Excalibur

-Nekros

-Mesa

-Frost

-Limbo

-Saryn

-Rhino

[LisRestall]

If she needs a nerf because of "EZ Gaming" then so does:

 

-Trinity (tankiness falls off at 45mins)

-Excalibur (damage falls off so early on endless void missions)

-Nekros (desecrate doesn't give tankiness or damage buff or CC)

-Mesa (yes needs to be nerfed, that 95% DR along with a free damage buff as well as an ult easily buffed by augment mods spells OP)

-Frost (while i do admit that a good frost can keep the pod safe endlessly on defense missions, he also needs to focus on using globe every 4s for that invulnerability abuse so he doesnt need a nerf, his other skills are also not that good)

-Limbo (limbo is good where he is, he can be uber bad but can also be uber good)

-Saryn (saryn doesnt need a nerf, she needs a rework)

-Rhino (lol)

Replies inside ( ). Also, you know what frame really needs nerf? Loki, the master race. Where Irradiating Disarm actually creates a meatshields for nullifiers to shoot at but that's a different topic altogether and I'm not the type to create a thread for that.

[Soul.Fire]

Yes. Nova is squishy. The Mod tanks damage. Not nova. Nova herself can pretty much be at 2 health the entire time while Qt does the work.

 

Now try the same without Qt. Is she tanky? Not at all. And that just shows how much of a essential mod that already is. Why? Because she is damn squishy.

Her health and shield are average. Her armor is on the line of negligible in terms of damage reduction and she has no inherent Tanking skill. She has no personal damage reduction, just CC and evasion. And fully relies on Qt.

QT is what you'd call a unhealthy element to the game. And his is one of the sole reasons that Nova is truly unbalanced. I know a lot of games where they nerf the things like QT or even fully remove them for the sake of balance.

 

So lets just remove Qt from the game. tadaa. Nova nerf. Now you NEED to spam her skill or you will die. Is that what you want?

 

Thank you X.X I don't have QT, and probably never will, partly because I'm fine playing support, partly because I just don't care, and partly because I don't have the platinum. But nerfing her at my current mod set-up would be A. a waste of time and B. a kick in the teeth for me. It wouldn't be fair. As to your last statement, yes, I think that is what this guy and everyone else like him wants.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[Soul.Fire]

So now you're saying, because I have the right mods, Nova isn't squishy anymore? Being hypocrite are we?

 

What did I say? I kept mentioning, P.Flow + QT along with her 65 armor makes her actually tanky. I have 700 energy on Nova Prime with 1 from top P. Flow and that is equivalent to 1680 HP not even counting her base HP, armor is also applied to QT. Those mods were the only ones I needed to be able to take alot of hits from enemies on T2S with my non-maxed Nova Prime. Energy Siphon's .6 energy regeneration is like 1.44 HP regeneration with QT, each 25 energy orb I pickup is like 60 HP heal with QT.

 

Squishy? Obviously, you're just trying to prevent Nova from getting nerfed.

That's your problem, you think that just because you have QT then everyone else does too. That's the only thing keeping you alive as long as you stay alive. Take it away and you have a squishy frame with exactly one combat-effective skill.

[ThePresident777]

Using one mods involves trading off against another mod.  Many of the arguments in favor of nerfing Nova take the form of cherry picking max numbers ignoring the trade offs those maximums require.

 

Using mods to make the case that a Warframe is "OP" implies that the mod is "OP".

 

Nova is not the only warframe that derives benefit from mods.

 

The Core of Warframe is

.  If that's not OP, what is?

 

Warframe is also about the players playing how they want.  It's not about "playing the right way".  It's not about Gears of war, or Dark Souls, or Extra Credits.

[akira_him]

QT+prime flow makes nova not squishy

Yeah it also make ember not squishy

And prime flow, prime

[XxMAGGOTxX]

Stop the nerf talk. This community screams nerf at everything in sight. Oh that Lato has negative 3 damage? NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURF!

[LisRestall]

That's your problem, you think that just because you have QT then everyone else does too. That's the only thing keeping you alive as long as you stay alive. Take it away and you have a squishy frame with exactly one combat-effective skill.

Why are people saying Ash with same 65 armor isn't squishy even though he only has 150 more health than Nova? Because Ash can utilize Vitality mod and poof instant 1100 HP. Now I'm just utilizing Quick Thinking but it became a totally different matter compared to using Vitality mod? This is how badly your argument fails.

 

Also you can get QT on trade chat for just 5p, there's no excuse to not have 5p because even those common nightmare mods from farming Jackal can sell for 10p. Being a bad player isn't an excuse, the game allows us huge customizations and let us use every single available mod to make optimized configs. Quick Thinking is an essential mod to energy frames like Nova as how essential Vitality mod is to high health frames like Ash, the only difference is while Vitality might give a smaller amount at least it has no drawbacks unlike QT.

[.Re-light.]

   LisRestall mate, your build is as endgame as it gets, however it's also highly specialized, requires either Nekros or both Trin and Nekros, but I could see it as being viable to go maybe as high as 90min in T4sur without camping, which I very much like.

 

    However, proving an argument that something is OP, unbalanced or game breaking when a build used to show it being that, is so specific that it requires other frames to work, well.. it's not really valid.

 

  I vote difficulty slider, MOAR Nullifier like enemies and for disscusions like this to became a thing of past..

 

 

Would you mind trying it in T4 solo? add me, I'll be online in 30 minutes, I'll send you few keys..

 

Edit: for testing purposes..

Edited January 30, 2015 by ReLight13

[ThePresident777]

Any Warframe can use QT+Primed Flow, including the less squishy Warframes.  And they all make a trade off for that.

 

Nerfs are is a downward spiral.  They take the form of:  "A is too much x / y."  Yet, no one can seem to say what is enough x /y.  And people in favor of nerfs have admitted as much in this thread going so far as to say that the entire game is OP.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Soul.Fire]

Stop the nerf talk. This community screams nerf at everything in sight. Oh that Lato has negative 3 damage? NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURF!

lol Now I'm amused XD To be fair, I've kind of stopped caring about this particular thread, I have better things to do with my time and energy. Like coming up with ways to make things work better.

 

   LisRestall mate, your build is as endgame as it gets, however it's also highly specialized, requires either Nekros or both Trin and Nekros, but I could see it as being viable to go maybe as high as 90min in T4sur without camping, which I very much like.

 

    However, proving an argument that something is OP, unbalanced or game breaking when a build used to show it being that, is so specific that it requires other frames to work, well.. it's not really valid.

 

  I vote difficulty slider, MOAR Nullifier like enemies and for disscusions like this to became a thing of past..

 

 

Would you mind trying it in T4 solo? add me, I'll be online in 30 minutes, I'll send you few keys..

 

Edit: for testing purposes..

A difficulty slider would be quite nice actually.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[LisRestall]

-snip-

I will keep saying this all over. It's not being able to solo or whatever. It's her "capabilities" which is the problem. Being able to provide such a ridiculous amount of survivability boost as well as a x2 damage multiplier over an extremely huge radius IS the issue, it creates an easy mode for the "squad". Also, Trinity isn't that needed, I mentioned that you can still reach like 80m+ AND "100m+ w/o Fleeting". Obviously, you can only remove Fleeting if there's no Trinity. Nekros is a must have because the mobs doesn't swarm, meaning less natural LS spawns but this doesn't mean that the squad setup is now very strict because that's just 1 slot being forced as Nekros.

 

What will solo-ing prove? You could say Mag is so OP with her Shield Polarize reaching 100k at 50mins with 4x CP aura but she still cannot solo T4S easily like Loki, Mesa, Mirage and Zephyr. Solo-ing =/= Teamplay. Fact remains that with the right build, a Nova can semi-break the game and only the nullifiers can stop her which is most likely a very minor issue within a 4-man squad.

 

This is a pub run with Loki, Nekros, Nova and me as Trin (Yes, I'm leeching but they said it's okay since I'm just an EVbot). I was also doubting that we would last long so I didn't really bother bringing a good weapon. But this Nova actually knows how to play Nova, the only time where she dies is when there's a nullifier approaching our room. You see, even with pub runs, if the Nova is really good and even there's a leecher like me, you would still be able to reach 1hr above easily and this really means something.

 

OP's suggestion is "my simple suggestion for a nerf would be a 20-30% fixed slow". Considering if this was applied to the current Nova, at least the mobs won't be so slow that they are almost stuck on their places. Given what it can still do besides the 30% slow, it's still a SOLID ultimate compared to other ults.

Edited January 30, 2015 by LisRestall

[Soul.Fire]

I will keep saying this all over. It's not being able to solo or whatever. It's her "capabilities" which is the problem. Being able to provide such a ridiculous amount of survivability boost as well as a x2 damage multiplier over an extremely huge radius IS the issue, it creates an easy mode for the "squad". Also, Trinity isn't that needed, I mentioned that you can still reach like 80m+ AND "100m+ w/o Fleeting". Obviously, you can only remove Fleeting if there's no Trinity. Nekros is a must have because the mobs doesn't swarm, meaning less natural LS spawns but this doesn't mean that the squad setup is now very strict because that's just 1 slot being forced as Nekros.

 

What will solo-ing prove? You could say Mag is so OP with her Shield Polarize reaching 100k at 50mins with 4x CP aura but she still cannot solo T4S easily like Loki, Mesa, Mirage and Zephyr. Solo-ing =/= Teamplay. Fact remains that with the right build, a Nova can semi-break the game and only the nullifiers can stop her which is most likely a very minor issue within a 4-man squad.

 

This is a pub run with Loki, Nekros, Nova and me as Trin (Yes, I'm leeching but they said it's okay since I'm just an EVbot). I was also doubting that we would last long so I didn't really bother bringing a good weapon. But this Nova actually knows how to play Nova, the only time where she dies is when there's a nullifier approaching our room. You see, even with pub runs, if the Nova is really good and even there's a leecher like me, you would still be able to reach 1hr above easily and this really means something.

I never die when I have a squad, in fact I'm always the last to even need someone to pick me up, When I Have A Squad. Soloing is an entirely different matter, Nova is just too squishy to be viable without a squad honestly if you don't have certain mod buffs. But here, I'll humor you, I'll get QT just for you, I'll run with that mod on and maxed. Personally I don't feel like I should have to have the damn thing, it takes space that I'd rather use for something else, but I'll use it for now.

As for the slow, I generally only use the maximum slow for uber-powerful enemies, there are enemies in the game that need to be slowed down by about 75% just so they hit you a little less, long T4 defense matches are a prime example.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[.Re-light.]

In circles we go.

 

You also had Loki there. And yourself as "EVbot" and a Nekros. You know how my random teams look like? Frost, Valkyr, Rhino..

 

   Argument was slow is balanced by squishiness.

 

   Should we talk balance around the skill level and gear level of people who have around 1000 hours, or those that are a bit more new, who might hype the game and get even more people into it?

 

I am in game currently, got 4 keys, if you want them, come.. do as you please.

 

Edit: Would you make it that far with Valkyr instead of Loki? Just one frame..

 

Edit 2: I just want you to show me how OP is that slow by going pass 30 minutes with your multi forma Nova, in T4sur, shouldn't be hard right? Not for someone who mains Nova.

 

Solo means a lot less creeps to deal with, rarely more then 1 Nullifier at the time,but guess what, their aim might prove to be a lot better then what you are used to. DE will eventually fix connections issues, then we will have less latency issues I hope.
 

Edited January 30, 2015 by ReLight13

[Soul.Fire]

In circles we go.

 

You also had Loki there. And yourself as "EVbot" and a Nekros. You know how my random teams look like? Frost, Valkyr, Rhino..

 

   Argument was slow is balanced by squishiness.

 

   Should we talk balance around the skill level and gear level of people who have around 1000 hours, or those that are a bit more new, who might hype the game and get even more people into it?

 

I am in game currently, got 4 keys, if you want them, come.. do as you please.

The thing is, it all hinges on a squad. The founder I play with will bring the absolute most random frames when it's just the two of us, and then I have to figure out how to keep him alive. I rarely play Trinity, so I have to get creative. With us, random squads are truly random, when there's four of us it will take our rag-tag group close to 20 minutes at times to decide what to bring when we actually decide to plan.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

It doesn't take a space if you remove Redirection or Vitality mod. The slow can be toned down to 30% fixed and can still be really useful.

 

-snip-

Around these hours is when I sleep. It's 1AM here so I'm not online in the game and just browsing stuff till I get sleepy. I don't know the purpose of solo-ing or what it will prove, you're logic goes like let's prove Trinity isn't OP because she can't heal a squad when she solos. You get me?

 

Also Nova was never one of my frames to pick when solo-ing because how her ability works say so.

[.Re-light.]

It takes 1 min to go into game, just take the keys and try it when you feel like it, 0 lag or close to it, changes the game in a significant way.

 

I've already add you.

[LisRestall]

It takes 1 min to go into game, just take the keys and try it when you feel like it, 0 lag or close to it, changes the game in a significant way.

I've already add you.

I'm an Arbiters supporter even before the T4 Keys removal so I have alot of T4S. I will go to T4S alone using Nova Prime tomorrow.

[Soul.Fire]

It doesn't take a space if you remove Redirection or Vitality mod. The slow can be toned down to 30% fixed and can still be really useful.

 

Around these hours is when I sleep. It's 1AM here so I'm not online in the game and just browsing stuff till I get sleepy. I don't know the purpose of solo-ing or what it will prove, you're logic goes like let's prove Trinity isn't OP because she can't heal a squad when she solos. You get me?

 

Also Nova was never one of my frames to pick when solo-ing because how her ability works say so.

I don't run Redirection or Vitality on Nova, the return isn't high enough to make up for the deficit so I don't bother. There are other mods I'd simply rather have is all. More interesting ones at any rate, at least I find them so. I'll still get QT and run it for you, bet I get the same results. That still doesn't change Nova being squishy when you take that mod away. No matter what you do, take that mod away and Nova will always be squishy. I personally like being able to slow down a Gorgon to about 25% of its normal fire rate, now if that's too OP for you, then don't put the power mods on your Nova, build up your defense or something. The way most people build is not in terms of how slow will this make the enemy go, but how powerful they can make the explosion. On low level enemies you obliterate the entire map in seconds, but on "end-game" enemies you're doing good to just be able to get them to explode 3 or 4 at a time and take less damage from them, and when there's a hundred or more of them shooting at you all at once it doesn't really matter an awful lot, because they're still hitting you at an extremely high DPS. Individuals are shooting/hitting you slower, but as a unit, the group is hitting you quite fast enough.

[ThePresident777]

When everybody does it, people say nerf, because everybody is doing it.  But, when a handful of people do it and there are other options, then people say nerf anyway.  Nerf because solo.  Nerf because not solo.  Nerf because mods.  Nerf because not-mods.  Nerf because playing a mission for an hour is ... something.  I don't know what.  1 hour is a magic number of some kind.  The significance of these numbers is never related to the players.  There is no concept of a player except to say they are in an easy chair or lazy.  Reaction speeds, attention span, those are not the important numbers.  Fun, personal taste, not important, even if quantifiable, or correlated to quantities.  Not even the basis of the game is considered important.

 

It looks like nerf is always the right thing to say for some people.  They just do not want to see

.  They don't care if DE has stated as far back 2 years ago that Warframe is about the players playing how they want, not about playing in approved ways.  People still come to the forums to make other players conform to their approval.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

This will be the last time I will bother replying to you because obviously, you don't get the logic behind my replies or rather not trying to understand at all.

 

1. Saying that Nova is squishy w/o QT mod is the same as saying other frames like Ash is squishy w/o Vitality mod when in-fact they are not because they have access to those mods and can utilize them for getting a huge boost on survivability. Removing QT just to make yourself squishy so you can rant or use it as argument in the forums isn't valid.

 

2. You see, while Mprime already has a ridiculous damage output due to that chaining blasts while it applies that x2 boost to the explosion damage, when the damage starts to fall-off, it still has very great utility which is that ridiculous 75% slow and 200% damage taken debuff. They can't even turn fast so they could aim you, note that Nova is one of the fastest frames second to Loki. Her survivability is way much better even compared to a Mag that can restore her shields due to that ridiculous slow on Mprime.

[Soul.Fire]

This will be the last time I will bother replying to you because obviously, you don't get the logic behind my replies or rather not trying to understand at all.

 

1. Saying that Nova is squishy w/o QT mod is the same as saying other frames like Ash is squishy w/o Vitality mod when in-fact they are not because they have access to those mods and can utilize them for getting a huge boost on survivability. Removing QT just to make yourself squishy so you can rant or use it as argument in the forums isn't valid.

 

2. You see, while Mprime already has a ridiculous damage output due to that chaining blasts while it applies that x2 boost to the explosion damage, when the damage starts to fall-off, it still has very great utility which is that ridiculous 75% slow and 200% damage taken debuff. They can't even turn fast so they could aim you, note that Nova is one of the fastest frames second to Loki. Her survivability is way much better even compared to a Mag that can restore her shields due to that ridiculous slow on Mprime.

They're already looking at you most of the time, or do you have the good fortune to always come up on your enemies from behind? And if that's the case, O, Mighty One, how the @(*()$ hell do you do it? Ash is still squishy, even with Vit, at least I've found him to be so when he gets hit. I even avoid getting hit with Valkyr because, even with her armor boast that is quite frankly off the charts, she still takes a lot more damage to her hp than one would think possible if they hadn't played her.

I've said this a thousand times, Nova is squishy, and I'm willing to bet that she's even squishy with QT on, the only difference is she won't die, she'll just be running around with a few hit points depending on how high the mod is ranked.. If you want a Nova Nerf so damned bad, then DE should just take away that @(*()$ mod. There, problem solved.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ LisRestall - Nova Prime is a bit squishy, but if you mod her right I agree you won't die with her much, at least I don't. However you mentioned above that when you cast MPrime the enemies don't even have enough time to turn around and aim at you. But from my experience in most missions, aren't they already looking at you? I hardly run into mission where they all just got their backs turned to you. Just saying bro.