PvP?

[Kurtino]

This issue is beyond any PvP vs PvE debate. The development team does not have the time or resources to focus on PvP and the large amount of balance and gameplay considerations that come with it. It's a headache and it's better to focus on polishing what they actually want to work on and are doing well.

I agree that Waframe PvP could be a lot of fun and very similar to the legendary MAIET Entertainment's GunZ. (But GunZ did gain popularity due to glitches that made the game very fast paced). That said Warframe PvP would be extremely difficult to balance as the entire game's statistics and class mechanics were not created for adversarial competition.

The only possibility I could see would be adding some sort of PvP that involved everyone having the same health, shields, and weapons statistics. No power abilities would be available and the game modes would have to be simple free for alls or team deathmatches. No matchmaking for skill levels or skill tracking so you could face players who were "really good" every time.

PvP isn't a simple concept to deploy effectively.

~*BASEBALLANALOGIES*~

It's better to cover one base very well and get one runner out than try to cover two bases and have both runners be safe.

Yes, I agree that the time constraints are a problem and probably the smartest argument against PVP but I would have imagened that this game will be one of those constantly updating f2p's and that sometime in the future, they could put aside some resources or team members that specialise around PVP to come up with something. The balancing doesn't have to be spot on but there's a lot of different ways PVP can be implemented, there is no true way and it doesn't have to be completely balanced because there's always something people complain about in any sort of game, something is generally better but people enjoy the overall experience.

I hope that no one is saying that they drop what they're doing is develop PVP ASAP as a main focus, I just hope that they implement some sort of feature in the future. Many F2P games did this sort of approach, such as Global Agenda and Combat Arms, something for everyone.

[Ced23Ric]

The reason these hreads get locked is simple.

DE said, they will focus on PvE, PvP may com in the form of Borderlands duels, which is agreed-upon friendly fire. Yet, people ask for PvP, although the Devs have said that that's not the game they aim to create. The goal is a kickass, cooperative PvE TPS. That does not stop PvP advocats, despite clearly being told that their feedback is heard, but not the way this game will go, to keep posting these threads. The usual reasons are the usual fallacies: "Without PvP, the game will die."; "Without PvP, there is nothing to do." etc. On top of that, there is the ambiguous "PvP would be so cool!" argument.

Now, the counterarguments are, beyond that the devs already decided against fully fledged PvP for the forseeable runtime of the project, that PvP will inadvertedly take ressource (time, money, manpower, creativity) out of the PvE development. It has to. People working on PvP don't exist in a vacuum without pay and 24h shifts. So DE would have to divert ressources to PvP, which would then be missing in PvE and general game development. As a result, the game would eiter slow down, considerably, or would become mediocre.

Dev quote: "We rather build one awesome game than two mediocre ones."

Now, the next thing is balancing. The very nature of PvP requires constant supervision, adaption and correction to keep the customers happy. Team Fortress 2 can do that because PvP is their main thing. Their game is, in it's core, done, just balancing changes, a few maps are added, and hats. Lots of hats. The PvE mode is pretty much the same, but shooting bots. That transition is easy. But from PvE to PvP, everything changes. Warframe is not even conceptually prepared to be PvP - the abilities are horrendously overpowered, with many long stuns, instakills, shield busters with low health rates, etc. To balance these abilities would pretty much require an entire conceptual rewrite.

And the final thing is the community itself. Instead of running and gunning together, the very nature of a PvP game caters to rather ungentlemanly behaviour. You will hardly find a score of 12 year olds cussing your mother out in a Torchlight session, but they are very much at home at the Free 2 Play shooters of the world. I am not even saying Call of Duy here, because it's too easy. I am talking about ArcticWarfare, Warrock and the likes.

Dev quote (continued from above): "... with a cooperative, kickass community!"

All these things leave no room for PvP beyond "friendly fire". The fact alone that there would have to be conceptual rewrites of core aspects of the game already shows that it would require a different game, which in turn makes it quite apparent that Warframe is not the platform for PvP. It is not meant to, not conecpted as and doesn't need PvP.

As for successfull games ... Borderlands. Torchlight. Diablo Series. Left 4 Dead Series. Alien Swarm. Mass Effect 3 Horde Mode. Would you call those unsuccessfull? It is a fallacy to believe so. Cooperative games may cater to a different crowd, but that does not mean that that crowd doesn't have the numbers to make a project successfull. There are multiple clear examples of the opposite, with undeniable sales numbers.

PS: I did not intend to insult anyone with Call of Duty. If that was received as such, my apologies. Furthermore, because it seems as if that is the case, I am not pandering to PvE so much because I am a fluffy carebear. I played Counterstrike since Beta 3.5, spent most of my time in WoW in the battlegrounds, ran a 20 man squad for The Art of Warfare in Section 8, wrote guides on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 2 BC2, played Warrock, Day of Defeat, CS:Source, CoD and many other PvP games quite intensively. My total game hours in the Battlefield series alone are past the 1,500 hour mark, Global Agenda around 600 hours.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[ParadigmFallen]

No.

That was the last response to a PvP thread about 30 minutes ago. It got locked.

No PvP needed for Warframe, and as DESteve said, Digital Extremes rather develops one good game than two mediocre ones.

For once, we're in agreement. PvP would go the way of Monday Night Combat.... I'd prefer we stick to PvE, as that also lets the devs be a great deal more creative and do all sorts of crazy powers that otherwise would need to be hampered for balance in PvP (Loki would be effectively castrated of his powerset if made for PvP, or have incredibly long cool down times, or almost no health).

I'm not sure if I'd even want 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 battles over loot and such. Better to just allow a trading system. If people want to compete, then compete over how effective you are at wiping out your enemies (like Bulletstorm or Syndicate 2012).

Edited January 10, 2013 by ParadigmFallen

[MegatechBody]

Question: If I cast overload in a PVP arena would it instantly kill all the other players just like it instantly kills all the monsters?

If so I think we should definitely petition for the developers focus to go entirely toward PvP.

Edited January 10, 2013 by MegatechBody

[Raiker]

I don't think that my idea, the objective, PvE mission-based Clan War system would be that intrusive or detrimental to PvE players.

Sure, when we talk about resources, that would hinder PvE development, but I think the clan war would quell the PvP players while still making sure the game is PvE focused.

[MegatechBody]

I don't think that my idea, the objective, PvE mission-based Clan War system would be that intrusive or detrimental to PvE players.

Sure, when we talk about resources, that would hinder PvE development, but I think the clan war would quell the PvP players while still making sure the game is PvE focused.

I think you're on to something in the idea of making PvE more competitive. Instead of players fighting to kill each other having player teams compete against each other for the best mission times or scores, etc.

What about obstacle courses and mini-games? Sponsored weekly competitions where the best players from around the world meet but only will go home with the global guts gold.

Edited January 10, 2013 by MegatechBody

[Kurtino]

The reason these hreads get locked is simple.

As for successfull games ... Borderlands. Torchlight. Diablo Series. Left 4 Dead Series. Alien Swarm. Mass Effect 3 Horde Mode. Would you call those unsuccessfull? It is a fallacy to believe so. Cooperative games may cater to a different crowd, but that does not mean that that crowd doesn't have the numbers to make a project successfull. There are multiple clear examples of the opposite, with undeniable sales numbers.

Yes, because it's requested too much.

And I didn't say that PVE games are unsuccessful, just that PVE + PVP games are very successful as well.

Borderlands has dueling. Plus the PVP Arena.

Diablo was very heavily requested for PVP so they said that 3 would have it added in a future patch.

Torchlight 2 the same, they're making mods on PVP.

Left 4 Dead is PVP, it is Versus Infected vs Survivor PVP so yes, people did want PVP and they delivered.

Alien Swarm is a free to play mod that valve made to promote their engine, it's neither successful nor list worthy tbh.

The only game you really listed that I can't comment on is Mass Effect 3 because I didn't buy it but is the horde mode really that big or successful? I don't hear about it and the game isn't built around it, more like a extra mode. This game is purely built around being a PVE cooperative, whereas Mass effect 3 isn't but the rest of those games you listed are, so I don't think its worth mentioning, even though all of the games you listed have some form of PVP or heavily want it (Diablo 3 PVP patch out yet? I stopped playing.).

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kurtino

[Raiker]

I think you're on to something in the idea of making PvE more competitive. Instead of players fighting to kill each other having player teams compete against each other for the best mission times or scores, etc.

Exactly.

Just throw a leaderboard down, maybe hold events for teams to clear such and such mission or planet the best/shortest.

On the note of the clan war, you'd have players working together to secure objectives from other clans and maybe even an AI element, such as CvCvE, where there is a persistant AI securing objectives for their faction/clan/group.

PvE doesn't have to be cut and dry mission after mission. I get that they want it to be a grindy shooter, but I don't think anyone would mind if this was added.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Raiker

[Kurtino]

Exactly.

Just throw a leaderboard down, maybe hold events for teams to clear such and such mission or planet the best/shortest.

On the note of the clan war, you'd have players working together to secure objectives from other clans and maybe even an AI element, such as CvCvE, where there is a persistant AI securing objectives for their faction/clan/group.

PvE doesn't have to be cut and dry mission after mission. I get that they want it to be a grindy shooter, but I don't think anyone would mind if this was added.

Yeah, PVP can be implemented in many ways guys its not always as complicated as "We need to implement all of our weapons and characters fully balanced and working for PVP perfectly and this will take months of work", people can be creative with PVP you know.

[Raiker]

There could be prizes such as credits and maybe a little plat for being the "season champ", loosely phrased, with maybe a warframe skin showing that you did something that showed you were part of a team effort. 2nd and 3rd place would get less credits, maybe an item like a couple team heals or something for each player who competed, and then the unplaced players would get credits. It would create friendly rivalry and bring together clans for a specific purpose.

[Sendrik]

Dont know if i understood your idea with the clan war right...if you mean your clan and a enemy one are fighting over a territory by seeing who can slaughter more enemies in a specific time,i have to correct what i wrote and say im not up for that.

If you mean that you do all of the things mentioned above AND you can attack other players while doing it(to slow ther mob slaughtering down),i thinks its a awesome idea.

Otherwise it would not be pvp for me because youre actually never fighting against other players,just comparing scores.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[FanaticGamer]

I'm just gonna make a driveby post here to chime in:

PvP is not really needed now, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't look forward to it down the line.

When the rest of the game have been build more solidly, with first of all more content and envirnoment variation, I'd be pretty happy if they'd look into making PvP possible somehow.

I can already imagine how badass it would be, to zip around fighting other space ninjas!

[Raiker]

Dont know if i understood your idea wiith the clan war right...if you mean your clan and a enemy one are fighting over a territory by seeing who can slaughter more enemies in a specific time,i have to correct what i wrote and say im not up for that.

If you mean that you do all of the things mentioned above AND you can attack other players while doing it(to slow ther mob slaughtering down),i thinks its a awesome idea.

Otherwise it would not be pvp for me because youre actually never fighting against other players,just comparing scores.

That's the beauty of it. You aren't having to worry about different aspects of balancing, you're not changing basically anything inside the game. This saves money and manpower. What it does give you is a competitive environment to play in, with the basis being cooperative play. If you had fully fledged PvP lobbies, people would just run full Mag and Trinity teams to troll, and everyone would just not play. What you are asking for would change the game completely, while what I'm suggesting would only add to the feeling of teamwork in the game.

[Sendrik]

Well,its a nice idea to improve pve raiker,but by all means,you cant seriously call that pvp.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[Raiker]

By all means it is PvP. It's players working against each other.

Sure, you're not actively shooting someone in the head, but I will reiterate: the PvP you are looking for CANNOT work in Warframe.

Won't happen.

Go play Global Agenda.

[Sendrik]

It is definatly not pvp.

Its just comparing scores.

Yes,its competitive but that doesnt make it pvp.

If im playing gothic3 and i post how long it took me to kill a mob and compare it with the results of other people,this would not be pvp.

It would be the same for warframe.

The pvp im looking for CAN work in warframe.

Its not easy but it can work.

Again...seriously dude...i already wrote that you guys should stop telling me,what games you think i should play.

You know where you can put your global agenda?

Im really trying to have a nice discussion but its really starting to &!$$ me off that people tell me what games i should play if i havent asked for it.

Even as i said you people should cut it,you,raiker,did it.

So...you where not reading what i wrote,or you just dont care about what i wrote and you post it with the goal to go on my nerves.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[Raiker]

We're offering suggestions as to different games you can play to get the same feel.

Tell me, with the abilities, because we all know that warframe would be very generic without them, tell me how to encorporate PvP without causing harm to PvE by balancing or taking resources away from it?

Let me make this simple.

You cannot.

[Sendrik]

If you really will feel the need of telling other people what games they should play,please do it if they actually want you to do it.

Pvp would surely do fine without abillites.

Not that im up for this solution instead of having abbilities but if it happens,im not too sad about it.

After all,its a pve focused game,right?

So there doesnt need to be a super-cool-well-balanced-pvp-system.

As someone allready wrote,people that want pvp so bad in warframe will like it even if its not well implemented.

People could make ther own rules about what abbilities are allowed in ther rooms.

Or just lock them away and it would still be fine.

I would have no problem with locked abbilites in pvp and im sure most pve people will not have a problem with it too,because they arent doing pvp anyway.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[Raiker]

If you really will feel the need of telling other people what games they should play,please do it if they actually want you to do it.

Pvp would surely do fine without abillites.

Not that im up for this solution instead of having abbilities but if it happens,im not too sad about it.

After all,its a pve focused game,right?

So there doesnt need to be a super-cool-well-balanced-pvp-system.

As someone allready wrote,people that want pvp so bad in warframe will like it even if its not well implemented.

People could make ther own rules about what abbilities are allowed in ther rooms.

Or just lock them away and it would still be fine.

I would have no problem with locked abbilites in pvp and im sure most pve people will not have a problem with it too,because they arent doing pvp anyway.

Warframe without abilities makes for a very generic shoot 'n' slash.

[Sendrik]

If it would just have pvp in it,then yes,it would.

But this kind of pvp is just meant for a small break from pve,not for the main theme of the game.

And thats what you want or not?

Keeping pve the main focus of the game?

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[Raiker]

Clan wars is a form of PvP. It's just not the mindless 12 year old friendly PvP that you want.

Nobody will play PvP if the abilities are locked.

[Sendrik]

Clan wars are a form of pvp.

But the idea you posted has nothing to do with pvp.

Mindless 12 year old friendly pvp?

Dude,please watch what you say,ok?

Youre starting to get unashamedly again.

And btw,im an adult.

Nobody will play it if the abbilites are locked?

Strange,because i and(if i saw it correctly)2 other people on the forum,if not more,are up for the idea to lock abbilitys for pvp.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Sendrik

[Kurtino]

Warframe without abilities makes for a very generic shoot 'n' slash.

The abilities are no way the strong point of this game and at the moment it is a generic shoot n slash, what else do you see in it?

You have a few damaging abilities and protective ones, they're not very unique or useful and run out incredibly fast thanks to the energy system, which there are a lot of friends suggesting ways to improve the abilities.

At the moment I just use E and shooting to get through levels rarely thinking about abilities. As rhino my first ability is the same as my fists but weaker and adds a stun, nothing brilliant. I get a invulnerable on my second ability but honestly, it's not interesting or anything and the other is a ground slam, similar to how I punch anyway and I can't remember the last ability because it's not unique enough.

Excalibur is the same. My 1 is OK but it's just a stronger E that I can use limitedly. Super jump is useless and it costs energy and by the time I realised 2 of the abilities were bad I stopped working on excalibur and bought another warframe.

Loki I have a decoy...nice, not unique though, not interesting and second ability is a broken invisibility...you are completely undetected even while killing enemies and the AI does not react to being killed while invisible so they just stand there. These are not solid abilities and they certainly do not make Warframe stand out from any other game.

I know some warframes get more interesting abilities but many of them are unworked on, not very useful or broken in some way which is exactly why abilities at their current state wouldn't be useful for PVP but they WOULDN'T be added into PVP because I suspect the abilities will be very worked on anyway.

It's not that the abilities are PVE exclusive, it's that they're not even finished yet...but to answer to your claims no, the abilities could be removed and the game would still be solid and PVP can be added, although you say that they cannot, they can...so you can keep posting that PVP couldn't be in this game but it could be, sorry but there's just no reason it couldn't be this is a game we're not limited by such constraints.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kurtino

[PhaZoNxxx]

I tried searching for this and I couldn't, it wouldn't let me...

...is PvP planned for the future? Would be fun in this game (or so it seems).

Sorry for asking a probably super common question.

[Humor]

Apparently from what I've gathered around the forums, DE has no plans to bring PvP into Warframe, however, I'm sure that'll change when the decrease of players starts to hit.

In my personal opinion Warframe can not strive, and live on PvE alone, there has to be some kind of competitive part to pretty much any shooter out there. And a leaderboard just doesn't cut it, especially not a leaderboard showing only the amount of kills, depecting the amount of time someone has initially farmed the first level with 1 hit kills over, and over. Or, fighting infested, and one shotted all of the enemies with your melee weapon.

That is of course my opinion, and I'm sure after some time, they'll be forced into adding PvP when the time comes.