PvP?

[Nocturo]

Think of what it would be like if we got more than 4 players on a map. ....

Those are rather flaws in game design (not enough bandwidth for WF servers etc.), there are tons of games out there with hundreds of players online at the same time, so as the goal of WF is to provide an online team-combat model it is imperative to ensure smooth and lag-free gameplay with as many participants as possible.

Abuse of any ability comes also from unbalanced game design. It's ok, we're in a BETA.

[PhaZoNxxx]

No thanks, pvp is the essence of bad to me, look at PVP based games, most turn into 1 of 3 things.

1. Rinse repeat tactics (LOL, DOTA 2)

2. Gear smash (whoever has the better gear wins "WoW,Tera, any MMO with PVP really)

3. The Trollfest Shooter ( pick an FPS all the same run around click click your dead)

PVP in most games is the end-game, or the main stay, but they just end up being a boring excuse to continue playing the game, "Look at my amazing KDR, I sho 1337, time to pwn more noobs lolzor"

I think a game without PVP in this era would be a freaking legendardy movement.

I would rather have AI vs Player Conquest, give us a space map, and let us keep the baddies at bay constantly fighting over pieces of the map, give us larger scale combat like defend a city, or a space-port, battle on a giant battlecruiser.

Make this feel like a war...I mean isn't that the base-line of the story?

The third point mainly pertained to the populace I have found around PVP games, they tend to me very young, very annoying, and very interested in being a giant troll.

And it is true, many of that pertains to PvE aswell, but atleast PvE doesnt encourage you to troll, and use any and all ways to be better than the rest. PvP encourages hacking, PvE that isn't grindy doesnt encourage hacking or botting.

No, you clearly don't.

I'll cut myself short, as this is the umpteenth time this has been explained. PvP sucks out resources from other development, hurting PvE, hurting overarching game progression and requires a lot tighter observation. This either splits the game into two mediocre ones or slows it down to a crawl. Another reason: Saturation. There are tons of PvP games, competing isn't necessarily a good idea. Another reason: Warframe in its current state is completely design around a few players fightung hundreds of enemies. None of the abilities are even close to be balanceable, most are instant kills without counters, with locked animations. Another one: PvP is not the the vision for Warframe. It is a cooperative dungeon crawler TPS.

If you don't understand these reasons, that is okay. But you are essentially asking for a BMW at the Ford dealership. Wrong game for PvP.

Wow, look at all of this hate for a feature that you dont have to play (lol?). And all of your arguments are terrible, it's more or less falacious reason xfor no pvp but the real reason is you probably don't want to get butthurt by getting destroyed in pvp; it's the ONLY REASON YOU WOULD SAY NO to a feature that you WOULDN'T have to use. People should either want PvP or not care if it is added.

First of all, mechanics in this game would be AMAZING for pvp, movement alone at least (alebit movement is a bit sticky). They WOULD have to rebalance stuff though, that is a given, and have to make a decision if pvp would be gear based and if it was, how much pve progression gives you a pvp advantage. There can also be separate gear for PvP and PvE. There's SO many ways they can go about making pvp work in the game economically and warframe/weapon wise balanced.I could go on and on about what they could do to make pvp practically perfect since the gameplay itself is absolutely GOLDEN for small arena based pvp. The movement allows for a considerably high skill cap shooter and, considering the current fps market, it's a shame that there is no pvp function. I'd even go as far as to say given the right gametypes/maps this game could be a competitive TPS considering such.

The gameplay IS THERE.

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[Ced23Ric]

You are wrong.

[PhaZoNxxx]

You are wrong.

Whoever you're referring to, you sure have some good points.

[astrobird]

Skana exclusive duels would be downright hilarious though.

Just imagine two people sprinting at each other and mincing each other instantly, with their Gibbs flying all over the place

[Ced23Ric]

Whoever you're referring to, you sure have some good points.

I made the points multiple times already. I was refering to you. Your conception is internally skewed because you assume that one has to either like PvP or may not have an opinion on it. But that is a shortsighted fallacy. unless you can magically summon programmers, servers, software, development time, money, and so on, PvP will impact PvE and the entire game progression.

It's not that all those opposing PvP in Warframe hate PvP in general. I for one played multiple games on various scales on competitive levels, including GA's AvA, the Battlefield Series, Clan War level Section 8, all the way back to Counterstrike, etc. pp. - That alone is a fallacy to assume.

It is just that some of us can see the detrimental effects PvP development would have on the game. You can't. You are basing your pro-arguments on ignoring key factors, and while that makes you right within the bubble of your perception, it makes you wrong overall. Hence: You are wrong.

[PaleMinerva]

Whoever you're referring to, you sure have some good points.

Never mind that you completely railroaded over his points without actually responding to them.

[PhaZoNxxx]

I made the points multiple times already. I was refering to you. Your conception is internally skewed because you assume that one has to either like PvP or may not have an opinion on it. But that is a shortsighted fallacy. unless you can magically summon programmers, servers, software, development time, money, and so on, PvP will impact PvE and the entire game progression.

It's not that all those opposing PvP in Warframe hate PvP in general. I for one played multiple games on various scales on competitive levels, including GA's AvA, the Battlefield Series, Clan War level Section 8, all the way back to Counterstrike, etc. pp. - That alone is a fallacy to assume.

It is just that some of us can see the detrimental effects PvP development would have on the game. You can't. You are basing your pro-arguments on ignoring key factors, and while that makes you right within the bubble of your perception, it makes you wrong overall. Hence: You are wrong.

huh

so again you pretty much gave no reason as to why it wouldnt work.

How is my concept coneptually skewed? There are SO many routes they can go in terms of the mix of PvE and PvP. You can make pve gear give a pvp equivalent stats, make pvp give totally different gear, etc etc.

The only thing that would need extreme rebalancing would be the warframes. And that isn't that hard. Consider energy drops to be a "power weapon" of sorts if it were to be an arena based fps and give each warframe only one ability for pvp and rebalance that one ability accordingly.

No, you clearly don't.

I'll cut myself short, as this is the umpteenth time this has been explained. PvP sucks out resources from other development, hurting PvE, hurting overarching game progression and requires a lot tighter observation. This either splits the game into two mediocre ones or slows it down to a crawl. Another reason: Saturation. There are tons of PvP games, competing isn't necessarily a good idea. Another reason: Warframe in its current state is completely design around a few players fightung hundreds of enemies. None of the abilities are even close to be balanceable, most are instant kills without counters, with locked animations. Another one: PvP is not the the vision for Warframe. It is a cooperative dungeon crawler TPS.

If you don't understand these reasons, that is okay. But you are essentially asking for a BMW at the Ford dealership. Wrong game for PvP.

oh this?

- PvP can come after the core PvE game is done. It also shouldn't take that long to develop. Some slight alterations to the netcode may be needed (ue3 tends to go well serverside with shooters), a server system opposed to working off of hosts are the two main things that would be "time consuming" if any.

-Tons of pvp games? So? There are no pvp games with mechanics shown in this game. It's pretty damn unique. It's not like this is another "run the mill" shooter. It would obtain a core community that wouldn't leave simply off of its uniqueness. See games like APB or Darkfall. They will always live because they are unique.

-As i said, it would not be hard to rebalance warframes.

I reallllllly don't get what the @(*()$ problem is. And i know personally that i'm not going to drop any money on this game until i see pvp, because as a competitve player seeing these mechanics for a shooter go unused for pvp is like a knife in the heart; seeing a game with skillbased movement again with no arena based pvp just hurts on the inside for someone like me.

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[PaleMinerva]

Where are the resources for PvP? Where's the time, the money, the developers? As far as we know, they don't exist, because it's all going into PvE content. That's the vision of the developers. If you want PvP content, a good chunk of those resources get sucked away from PvE development instead. It might not even be a simple as splitting the team in half and having them work on two separate things. If it's intensive enough (and I damn near guarantee it is), it could take the entire development team sitting down and reworking everything from the ground up. Meanwhile, where's my PvE content? Where are my new map tiles, new enemies, new solar bodies and missions, weapons, mods, artifacts, blueprints?

[Ced23Ric]

One of the problems is, that you have no idea about game development, balancing, networking, server-client systems, engine issues, etc. pp. - As a result, your perception of these things is faulty. You think it's easy and shouldn't take that long to develop. It is not and it is.

As a result, you think we are being hateful. We are not.

[PhaZoNxxx]

One of the problems is, that you have no idea about game development, balancing, networking, server-client systems, engine issues, etc. pp. - As a result, your perception of these things is faulty. You think it's easy and shouldn't take that long to develop. It is not and it is.

As a result, you think we are being hateful. We are not.

I REALLY don't think you do because, as a hobby, you can consider me an indie game developer. It would NOT take that long since most of the work is ALREADY DONE.

If a team of, say, 15 coders that weren't slow as S#&$ and worked for 8 hours a day for two weeks, they can push out a relatively well working pvp system.

Slight alterations to the netcode may be needed and having dedicated servers run a dedi client would really be all that is truly needed to be done technically. Map development at this point for an arena shooter would be extremely easy as well considering the ammount of assets they have already modeled. Simple gametypes such as TDM/CTF would take only a few hours to code, if that.

im sorry but anyone with any form of game development experince should be inclined to agree with me

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[Ced23Ric]

It's UE3, eh?

http://www.digitalextremes.com/evolution

It's not.

[PhaZoNxxx]

It's UE3, eh?

http://www.digitalex...s.com/evolution

It's not.

Didn't know it was propritary, a lot of the movement quirks and rendering methods make it feel almost identical to ue3, and so i guessed.

I was misinformed.

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[Ced23Ric]

That is what I kept telling you, but you kept raging. You have no perception of the scope bringing PvP into this game would mean. And that is just the development side. You are asking the people who came here to play a coop party crawler to give up continously developed content for PvE so you and others can shoot each other. You are asking the Ford dealership to sell you a BMW, because you really want one, but you like the interieur design of the Ford dealership better than BMW's.

[PhaZoNxxx]

That is what I kept telling you, but you kept raging. You have no perception of the scope bringing PvP into this game would mean. And that is just the development side. You are asking the people who came here to play a coop party crawler to give up continously developed content for PvE so you and others can shoot each other. You are asking the Ford dealership to sell you a BMW, because you really want one, but you like the interieur design of the Ford dealership better than BMW's.

It wouldn't mean much. Actually after doing some research, this engine was built off of ue 2.5, obviously the same as ue3. It would also help explain the similarity i felt mecahnically just playing the game.

I really don't know what engine limitations would exist. I can't conceive of any. We're not asking for anything any more or less graphically demanding, which would really be the most obvious engine limitation if it existed, and there's really no foreseeable reason that this engine can't support 8,10, even 16 people connected to the same server.

And if it can't support 16 people on one server - i hate to say it, but for a next gen engine it's a piece of trash. But I doubt there are any limitations for small arena based pvp.

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[wastu_spartan]

in the extinction of tennou and they fight each other?

please dont.

[Ced23Ric]

You are willing to argue this into the details, I take it? In that case, we can break it off right here. Neither of us is a DE employee with insight to their systems. Final official word is: Concentrate on PvE, PvP may come as Borderlands-style duels between players. Rather make one good game than two mediocre ones.

And if you are not willing to see and admit that PvP development would staunch PvE development and overall game progression, among many other things mentioned, then this discussion is pointless. The game is peer-to-peer right now. Who is going to buy, install, maintain, spread, and watch those servers you are speaking of? Will DE have to open dependencies in other countries to run their servers, or will there be 2nd party server hosters in DE's contract? Who is paying these contracted hosters? How about the rent for the space, the power, etc?

[PhaZoNxxx]

You are willing to argue this into the details, I take it? In that case, we can break it off right here. Neither of us is a DE employee with insight to their systems. Final official word is: Concentrate on PvE, PvP may come as Borderlands-style duels between players. Rather make one good game than two mediocre ones.

And if you are not willing to see and admit that PvP development would staunch PvE development and overall game progression, among many other things mentioned, then this discussion is pointless. The game is peer-to-peer right now. Who is going to buy, install, maintain, spread, and watch those servers you are speaking of? Will DE have to open dependencies in other countries to run their servers, or will there be 2nd party server hosters in DE's contract? Who is paying these contracted hosters? How about the rent for the space, the power, etc?

I know it's peer to peer, and altering the netcode to work serverside isn't really a daunting task as I have stated (for any decent coder) insofar that it would halt development for pve as you say. If DE can't manage servers, they can always release a dedi client.

I hate internet arguments with people, so i'm done. But development of pvp honestly should not take long at all and shouldn't kill pve development. Most of the work IS done.

Edited January 11, 2013 by PhaZoN

[Ced23Ric]

So your counterargument is ... nothing. Okay then. ;)

[Nocturo]

The gameplay IS THERE.

You are wrong.

Strong arguments Ced, as usual. I really see no use to argue with you about it, because - The gameplay IS THERE, period. +1 there PhaZoN.

It is clear that PvE comes first, but when it's almost finished, heck, even after launch and some months of regular PvE gameplay the dev's could come up with a PvP update and the community around Warframe WILL find it hilarius. It's almost a fail-safe thing to do with Warframe, needs only good ideas and the right input. This route (adding PvP) can at any time be taken by WF-devs and it will be 99% successful, given that they choose the right way to implement it.

[Ced23Ric]

Strong arguments Ced, as usual. I really see no use to argue with you about it, because - The gameplay IS THERE, period. +1 there PhaZoN.

"as usual" - I usually explain my position thoroughly. I did here before, but PhaZon ignored it, ran right above it. If detailed argumentation fails, simple sentences are all that's left. The gameplay isn't there in the slightest. Maybe the movement is there, but that is so basic, it is not unique to Warframe. The entire game would need to be reconcepted to make PvP fit in, starting with the lore in the very beginning, going over the abilities, weapons, mods, gear, frames etc. - and that means, essentially taking the Evolution engine and the Warframe "universe" again, but building a second game. And not phasing it into this game. I understand that some people would really like to see PvP in here, but ...

Ugh, whatever. I give up. This is so pointless.

[Nocturo]

This is so pointless.

Exactly as I feel and think.

[mrfluffydeath]

I REALLY don't think you do because, as a hobby, you can consider me an indie game developer. It would NOT take that long since most of the work is ALREADY DONE.

If a team of, say, 15 coders that weren't slow as S#&$ and worked for 8 hours a day for two weeks, they can push out a relatively well working pvp system.

Slight alterations to the netcode may be needed and having dedicated servers run a dedi client would really be all that is truly needed to be done technically. Map development at this point for an arena shooter would be extremely easy as well considering the ammount of assets they have already modeled. Simple gametypes such as TDM/CTF would take only a few hours to code, if that.

im sorry but anyone with any form of game development experince should be inclined to agree with me

I have several Forms of Game Development experience. I am extremely disinclined to agree with you. In fact, you wrong on more counts than you are correct. Hobby Development is now where near equivalent to studio development. Even Indie Studio development.

[Bennyworld]

I tried searching for this and I couldn't, it wouldn't let me...

...is PvP planned for the future? Would be fun in this game (or so it seems).

Sorry for asking a probably super common question.

I really dont think that this is a good idea, im sorry. This game is built for co-op - it is mission based, and, for me, co-op is one of the least generic things in Warframe. Basically - ITS A CO-OP GAME!!!!!!!!!! If you dont like co-op, this game 'aint for you. Sorry mate, but its true.

Bennyworld

[Rotless]

I really do like the idea of spawning as an enemy in other people's missions.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls made a very addictive addition with those mechanics in them.

Imagine if you could ambush with entire squads for 4 on 4 action etc.

Just a thought.