Game Difficulty: Keep It Real And *bring It* De

[11.11.11]

I was going to state exactly why I object to the idea of making the game universally more difficult, but this sums it up nicely.

Whenever I've asked for a nerf or a rebalance, it's because of this exact issue.  I love enemies that force me to adjust my tactics, such as Shock and Fusion Moas, but I hate enemies that arbitrarily punish the player for not being able to see through walls, like the Disrupter Ancient, or punish the player for not having an aimbot, like the Grineer Roller.  There's a difference between 'challenging' and 'cheap', and as it stands, a number of Warframe's enemies fall into the 'cheap' category.

I'm all for increasing the difficulty, as long as the difficulty increase stems from an increase in challenge, rather than an increase in cheapness.

 

Pretty much this. 

 

I don't think Warframe couldn't do with a bit more challenge, it's just that what passes for challenging currently - is mostly exploitative rather than intelligent, fresh or engaging. 

Edited May 6, 2013 by 11.11.11

[nerdrock]

Throw me into the pool for "Just give us something".

 

I'm well aware that rewarding and interesting challenges are difficult, expensive, and time consuming to produce, and "cheap outs" by just jacking up enemy damage / HP are not favorable. 

 

I'd like, at the least though, the cheap difficulty increase as an option.  Telling someone to just use lower level equipment, or not mod them out all the way is a cop out.  Think Diablo 3's more recent "Monster Power" mechanic.  Something that increases both difficulty and rewards in adjustable increments would help satiate some of our demands.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nerdrock

[Motox831]

I am definitely hoping to see a difficulty slider in the future patches. I am a new player so far having a lot of fun however I am already able to clear the maps that are considered to be hard with groups. 

 

This thread has a great read through and I hope some of these ideas get noticed. At least taken into consideration ya know?

 

I am excited to also see if they start some sort of PVE leaderboard to keep the longevity of PVE for the common gamers. 

[Dr_Wubby]

honestly the reason i stopped playing is because the game is much too easy.  i've spent money,but won't anymore bc its not fun to just rush through recklessly

[epochofentropy]

Jackal is cool and all but that's only one boss.

 

The Jackal WAS cool. Now if there's a high level player in the group he pretty much stands up then crouches down cyclically, and every once in awhile gets a shockwave off. This was mildly entertaining to watch the first time, but I was hoping it wasn't some player's first encounter of him.

 

Having Jackal based mini-bosses (or ultra elite?) would be a lot of fun though. (Lotus says: "The doors are locked. This enemy has the unlock code. Destroy the enemy and salvage it now.")

[epochofentropy]

One thought I wanted to add in consideration of having an immensely difficult zone is the fringe benefits DE will get from it.

 

Lets say they make a hypothetical zone with 10 maps to clear out. The zone is dialed in at a level that DE deems as "likely impossible" for a skilled player to pass, and each map getting slightly more difficult. The first map being "slightly unlikely" a skilled player can clear and the last map being "highly unlikely" a skilled player can clear with the maps in between somewhere in the middle of the difficulty curve. Now, I'm assuming that DE wouldn't be foolish and just make it scale from L200 to L1000, but instead they would pick levels and difficulty that they think nobody will "likely" clear through. (as it stands, it feels like that's probably L75-L90)

 

If we are given the understanding that this zone is "impassable to Tenno"... Players will get the picture.

 

 

DE's main fringe benefit here is that it gives them a litmus test for what the max difficulty of the game could look like to appease top-end players. If they set it up and don't think anyone will clear it, but then some clan walks through it in a week they'll need to reevaluate their sense of difficulty. Some players WILL continue to try their hand at it, and if DE looks at the stats of how well players do; for example how far they progressed before mission failure they can get a good idea of what the upper max limit of difficulty for the player base truly is.

 

Also, based on the stats of how people progressed and watching the "Play through" and strategy videos that are likely to ensue as players progress, DE can get a good understanding of how these players are getting through and more importantly how that is affecting gameplay for good or bad.

 

 

The downside of this is that players who do happen to clear through the zone when it's immensely difficult will feel slightly let down if the zone gets nerfed a bit, but to be honest... those type of players are used to reminiscing at the bar about how much content got easier from their past gaming experiences. So it's not the end of the world, especially as long as there's another challenge in the pipeline.

[GloriousYellowEmperor]

I really do like the idea of higher difficulty settings, but...

I don't really agree with the "super exclusive super pro only can beat this place" kind of thing.

Good teamwork and Coordination gets through the map? Sweet. But I think it shouldn't be 10% of the population only kind of thing. I feel like if half the player base got their head out their arse and decided to work together for once it should be manageable.

I like DmC2. I like Dante Must Die Difficulty Setting. It makes me feel like I've done something pretty cool.

Unfortunately, some of my friends aren't dodge spammers and can't do it. A lot of them quit playing the highest difficulty level or simply ragequit the game, because they knew they couldn't beat it.

I feel like end game should be something most people can look forward to, not just some "chosen elite". Gives everyone something to do, right?

Also I used to complain about AIs. Then I worked with a friend on a really really stupid tiny game. Now I don't complain about AI's. God they are complicated.

EDIT: Do agree with the "difficulty slider" thing, but definitely not the "super hard area" thing. If you want more of a Challenge, go for it. But don't make it something so you can yell "better than you" at all the other players. No one really wants a aesthetic change to show their dedication, its usually just to try to one up everyone else in e-peen land...

Edited May 7, 2013 by GloriousYellowEmperor

[Loswaith]

At some point the challenge you get from the game does come down to your own choice.  You have the choice to use lower powered mods to increase your own difficulity.  Saying its a 'cop out' because you want to use your fully powered mods but its too easy?  That realy is your own fault, you have the choice to use them or dont use them (and yes I do use non-maxed mods allot, when I play, as do my friends and clan mates).

 

Keep in mind it is a beta (yes we hear that allot I know, but it's no less true), as a beta it means it is unfinished, not a chance for you to play a complete game eairly.  DE have listened to the people that want a tougher game, and are planning to implement something to cater too it.  Until then it's on your own head to alter the way you play, most specifically mod your frames and weapons, to make the game more challenging.

If thats not going to work for you, prehaps take a break until the game is complete.

 

Repeatedly dying is not a good way to get people to learn how to play, it's just frustrating (there is good reason why games moved away from that kind of thing). 

Sure if they do stupid stuff that leads to their death thats ok (if it is obvious to the player it was a stupid mistake).  A player needs to know why they died (or could of died) to learn or better yet brought to the brink of death with room to retreat so they can recover, reformulate a plan, and ponder on what they did wrong (having lost some of the resources they used to escape with), and then implement and test a new plan (ie. learn).

[nerdrock]

At some point the challenge you get from the game does come down to your own choice.  You have the choice to use lower powered mods to increase your own difficulity.  Saying its a 'cop out' because you want to use your fully powered mods but its too easy?  That realy is your own fault, you have the choice to use them or dont use them (and yes I do use non-maxed mods allot, when I play, as do my friends and clan mates).

 

Keep in mind it is a beta (yes we hear that allot I know, but it's no less true), as a beta it means it is unfinished, not a chance for you to play a complete game eairly.  DE have listened to the people that want a tougher game, and are planning to implement something to cater too it.  Until then it's on your own head to alter the way you play, most specifically mod your frames and weapons, to make the game more challenging.

If thats not going to work for you, prehaps take a break until the game is complete.

 

Apparently you're missing the entire point of posting on these forums, which is to foster constructive discussion about directions for the game to take as it makes its way towards a final release.  I didn't see any posts demanding IMMEDIATE DECISIVE ACTION OR I'M TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME.   Just let people brainstorm about paths to address an issue.

[Zinn]

No. Just... no. Can we stop this? If the game is too easy, then the game needs to be harder so some of us can have a challenge, the game needs to change, not us. When someone makes a game, they set out rules, within these rules you have to beat the game, not gimp myself. Let the game be a challenge for those of us that want it.

I've heard that reading the entire post is a pretty good idea before spouting dumb things.

[Phoenix86]

For sure the game will need more different boss fights mechanics, for example Bosses that at certain hp% change their way to fight, mutate becoming faster or using different a skillset... or timed Bosses, when they fall below 25% hp they start and auto destruction tool who will erase the whole room and we have to kill and deactivate it before the countdown ends...

 

I dont know, for sure boss fight are the most important and the faster to fix/improve (since they involve only 1 enemy).

 

Beside that a wider enemy variety can help too, the Grineers are a good step forward compared to Corpus and Infested... they have short-mid-long range infantry, meele infantry and 3-4 different "elite soldiers" althought not so elite as they should be (1 aoe meele range KD is not enough imho) and they spawn too seldom to be a real threat.

 

Those new MOA fusion are a good add but defenetly not enough to fill the gap, they could add some stealth based enemy (something like stalker);

infested could have some sort of fast flying units and maybe slow'n'bigger charging units...

 

I hope they'll see all our ideas and implement what they find the best ones... this game is a very entertaining one!

 

edit: on a side note i'll say that a small flat increase in enemy hp/damage is not a 'so bad thing' ... with all our mods we are simply too OP compared to them, we need a better difficulty scaling system (a lvl 1 frame with lvl 30 weapon will own 99% of the monsters he will face... i would suggest that a frame can use only weapons equal or lower his own level and if he uses a lvl 30 weapon while he is lvl 15 that weapon automatically "scales" its attributes as it would be of that same lvl, 15)

Think about Guild Wars 2 balacing system, it works well, even a lvl 80 player in a lvl 10 zone can find a challenge since he's resized to the lvl zone +1 (11) !

Edited May 8, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Pichumon]

I want us to strive for a balanced approach that won't strain the limited resources of developers and meets gamer's needs without compromising the quality of the game (i.e. minimal bugs, and well received by public). Here are a few ideas I had in mind + entertaining elements.

 

[slayer - for gamers who like to play the role of the hero]

Three-headed hydra boss. Must destroy heads before attacking the Orokin core (insert pseudo mythology back story here). If it's not done by a specified time the heads grow back and players can get a penalty like an acid cloud covering the field or something.

 

[Oooh, shiny! Collectors edition]

Could also include a badge system or something as a reward for vanquishing a boss or completing a planet. Who knows, maybe there are gamers who like collecting things and having a record of it. [short work - the fast and efficient master Tenno] Defeating a boss in a specified time limit for a Tenno badge. Either that, or bonus XP.

 

[Tenno Secrets - taking over the world! Or Tenno politics I suppose...]

I know some gamers like secret levels/dungeons. Secret levels would require a set of planets or moons to be completed before it is visible to them. Maybe a cover-up or something, appealing to the 'hired as an agent of change' player.

 

[Top to bottom, why not side to side?]

Rotating or moving platforms so the player's perspective changes while fighting bosses. Having the boss on a higher platform to reinforce the David vs Goliath concept should result in a more positive outlook for players upon vanquishing the boss.

 

[Dramatic climax - Oh no, I'm trapped in with this beast!]

Perhaps a final fantasy-esque style of approach for bosses. Like a dungeon with mini-bosses and unlocking doors before meeting the all terrifying boss. Camera showing entrances being locked down due to a power surge from the boss in Corpus missions, or blocks of corrosive bile for Infested to block the way out will appeal to those "forced to fight for their lives" player.

 

Hmm, since this is a beta, maybe it would be useful to incorporate a simple feedback system for tangible metrics. Something like a pop-up at the end of the mission with a prompt "How would you rate your level of satisfaction for this mission?" with some stars or numbers 1-5. It'll be easier to see what levels should be scrapped or altered, and which are keepers to analyse why it's such a success.

 

Well, that's about 10 minutes worth of brainstorming, and since these are just sketches, it'll be easier to criticise. Have at them! Also, please make any suggestions of your own that you would like to see.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Pichumon

[Norro]

I like most ideas listed in this thread, would definitely want to see a hard mode or some end game content.

 

Once you get maxed gear the game gets easy almost everywhere. Sometimes you can just run through the damn place with all the enemies shooting at you like goddamn Leroy Jenkins and still not die. 

 

Seriously, I want to get punished and see people get punished whenever they go full Leroy. I want to be afraid of getting our of cover unprotected.

[dukarriope]

This thread has plenty of valid points. I agree with both ends, the game is sort of fine as it is now, but having no 'easy mode' will turn off some people. I enjoy playing the one-shot fest that Mercury is now, but at the same time having a challenging, intelligent, coordinated AI that doesn't get stuck in a corner sounds like the perfect 'hard mode'.

 

What would be best would be all. A high-level, high-resistance/damage mob who is dumb, a normal mob who is smart and will exhibit advanced tactics, and then for the really daring players, one that has both.

Then there need to be the mindlessly blastable mobs for the casuals (i.e. what Mercury is now to level 30 players). Of course, this means more work for DE, but it doesn't need to be done all at once.

 

Overall I'm satisfied with the difficulty of the game as it is now but I'm far from the endgame, so I'm probably not the best judge.

[epochofentropy]

Saw this earlier today and thought it might be interesting to bring up:

 

http://i.imgur.com/xHGKu57.jpg - Metro 2033 Max Difficulty Setting

[epochofentropy]

...

 

DE I IMPLORE YOU: Please put the nerf bat in the closet start buffing the enemies, at least in one ONE zone. I challenge you guys to bring it and make a Nightmare zone that tests players' mettle. Make it seem impossible and we'll find out who can tough it. I have high hopes that Update 8 will do so, but I'm concerned that some vocal players will gut the challenge.

 

...

 

High level reward suggestions:

-- Reduction of stagger mod (possibly to your sentinel?)

-- Rarer Fusion Cores

-- High power mods with tradeoffs (ex: 200% more power strength but 75% less shield recharge)

 

 

DE. Look I just wanted to say...

 

<3

 

Edit: But take Pluto and add another 20% more pain and 10% more rare core drops. ;)

Edited July 13, 2013 by epochofentropy