Stealth Related Issues, Or "stealth Gameplay Begins And Ends With Loki"

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

I have been playing warframe for a month or so, and stealth style gameplay as always been a favourite of mine. That said, it seems weird that the Tenno, who are supposed to be mystical space ninjas have never quite mastered the art of stealth to the degree of those they are styled after. Sure, they can kick butt in a major way, but is that all they are? To that end, I have a few suggestions on how stealth can be improved and observations I've come across concerning issues holding back stealth gameplay.

 

1) "Are you looking at me?": Enemy Sense / Enemy Radar is great, but it can be improved on. It would be nice to see the plain diamonds replaced by something more intuitive and informative, like a pointed egg, something that would show not only the enemy's position, but which direction they are facing.

 

2) "The Hive Mind": From what I have observed, if you alert an enemy, all the other enemies in the area become alerted to your presence, even if you are able to kill them before they can get a shot off, or even call for help (if they did such a thing, I've never heard them do as much, myself, though), it's as if they have some form of bizarre hive mind with shared perception.

 

3) "Invisibility, It's not just a good idea": Also, would it really be that hard to give another frame besides Loki, an invisibility mechanic, or put in a piece gear of that would allow for invisibility, or make the invisibility granted by the huras kubrow / shade sentinel somehow *USEFUL*?

 

4) "Enemy ESP": I have noticed that once spotted, even if you break line of sight with the enemy, they seem to be acutely aware of where you are at all times, at least until a certain distance has been put between you than them.

 

It's also a pretty well established fact that most people don't bother with stealth, preferring instead to just YOLO it and go killing everything. while this isn't necessarily a stealth suggestion 'fix' it wouldn't be a bad idea to include some kind of set of unique rewards for getting through a mission without having an alarm triggered.

 

On a personal note, I want to bring up how frustrated I am with Loki being the only true stealth frame. I hate bringing gender into online discussions, especially at the current time in gaming (for obvious reasons), however, i feel I have to.

 

I have never been comfortable playing male characters in games, and I know a lot of other women in gaming feel the same way. I am completely frustrated at slamming my head against a wall trying to get banshee to be even remotely as competent at stealth gameplay as Loki. It's stupid. It would be nice to either have a female Loki or a female frame specifically designed as a primary stealth frame instead of a stealth support frame.

 

My biggest complaint with banshee and stealth gameplay is that her abilities do not necessarily work as advertised. Her ability 'silence' is described as an aura of silence. It doesn't quite function as such. I thought by the description that it would muffle gunshots of those around her, not just her own, but it doesn't, and the issue with the 'hivemind' mentioned above leaves this ability of little use beyond an AoE stun, which she already has with sonic boom. Also, while sonar is a great ability for stealth-style gameplay, it's mitigated by the fact that there are 2 mods that basically help fill in the role this ability fills in stealth situations.

[RadioLarity]

-snip- Completely edited:
The problem with stealth in this game is, that there are not many rooms which are big and have places to hide from enemies sights. But reworking every room in the game at this point of development is... Well, it's not going to work. The best thing would be to give us an equipment that can make enemies not aware of our presence. I was thinking about grenades that sould break enemies line of sight/ stun them and make them unable to see. Well, if DE implemented grenade mechanic into the game (Basically something like an ability but instead of using mana it would recharge for quite a while like in mass effect/other recent RPGs), which have different utilities to them and one of them should be tear gas/smoke bomb. They would stun enemies in a 10-15 m radius (WF meters are really small, believe me) and make them unable to detect enemies. The effect should be, obviously, shorter than the recharge time. After the effect wearing off, enemies that you didn't kill and were affected, should become aware of your presence, but not attack you, instead they should start looking for you. Second of all, enemies shouldn't have telepatic abilities, that make everyone attack you in whole tileset, even before the enemy who notices you starts to shoot. I don't know if I missed anything. That's all I guess.

Edited March 18, 2015 by RadioLarity

[Cod3_zZz]

 Well, quite a good topic, but nontheless - useless one.

 

 Its hard to rework an AI that has already been implemented thats a first, second on the line - it's actually a point of view - don't like to play as a male character? And want to stealth? Do it right and do not go gunblazing with boltor even under a silence, pick some kind of bow or a silenced weapon, and Banshee will be as good as Loki.

 

 And afterall - why would DE bother to create one more character that has invisibility - while Ash and Loki can do so.

 

 And if ur fond of stealth - group with ash that has a syndicate mod and prolonged invisibility.

[rechot]

ash has invicability not just loki, banshee is amazing for stealth silence works well for me.

Edited March 18, 2015 by rechot

[RafaelFuchs]

ash has invicability not just loki, banshee is amazing for stealth silence works well for me.

silence also lasts longer and isn't dependant on your weapon being silent. 

[(PSN)Zeylon]

 

3) "Invisibility, It's not just a good idea": Also, would it really be that hard to give another frame besides Loki, an invisibility mechanic, or put in a piece gear of that would allow for invisibility, or make the invisibility granted by the huras kubrow / shade sentinel somehow *USEFUL*?

 

On a personal note, I want to bring up how frustrated I am with Loki being the only true stealth frame. I hate bringing gender into online discussions, especially at the current time in gaming (for obvious reasons), however, i feel I have to.

 

I have never been comfortable playing male characters in games, and I know a lot of other women in gaming feel the same way. I am completely frustrated at slamming my head against a wall trying to get banshee to be even remotely as competent at stealth gameplay as Loki. It's stupid. It would be nice to either have a female Loki or a female frame specifically designed as a primary stealth frame instead of a stealth support frame.

 

Ash also has invisibility, it's just not called that.  He also has an augment that allows him to do a "group invis", which makes stealth via invisibility a bit more viable if a group is properly organized.  His first attack power is also "silent" as I recall, and his teleport lets you close the distance for a stealth kill (Loki's switch isn't the stealthiest maneuver).  He's a decent stealth frame, and not as squishy as Loki.

 

Banshee has Silence, which is also a stealth-oriented sort of ability.  It would supposedly allow you to do things like kill people with an "unsilenced" weapon, and not have anyone hear.  I think it's also supposed to allow you to kill an "alerted" enemy, and keep them "alerting" other enemies - as long as they aren't looking directly at you when you do it?  In practice this isn't as useful as invisibility.  Banshee is female.

 

All that said, I definitely wouldn't mind a "female stealth frame", and I agree with your points. 

 

I would also add however that how the game handles enemy "spawning" is fundamentally anti-stealth as well.  You can feel out a level all you want, but enemies will still walk out of rooms with no doors seconds after you left them.  I've personally seen enemies spawn into life literally in front of me - they do this before they appear on enemy sense too.  If enemies can literally appear out of thin air (or close to it as 'enemies from closets' seems to be), then you have little chance of succeeding with stealth unless you're already invisible.

 

Note, I said "already".  Because you could walk from a large empty room to another large empty room, and start a hack/etc. right?  Then another enemy enters your room walking slowly in.  It could be literally impossible for any enemy walking at that pace to have crossed the former room to your room in that time period, but it happens anyway.  If you're not CONSTANTLY invisible, you will get screwed.  

 

There are fundamental systems in the game that would need to change for stealth to really work, because the sort of basic logic and strategy behind stealth wouldn't work when enemies defy reality.  This is true if they defy it existentially as I'm describing, or in the psychic and other sort of ways detailed in the OP.  I'd define the problem as "Stealth begins and ends with Invisibility".  Even Loki has to be nearly constantly invis to go stealth in practice, it's not just a stop-gap measure.

[Me.Greedy]

i think a consumable item that allows invisibility would be epic... give it a good 20-30 seconds, would solve this problem alot.

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

(PS4)Zeylon: I had noticed some of the spawning issues that you were talking about, but I haven't seen them as bad to that degree. i will have to keep my eyes out for that. I have noticed butchers (and consequently corrupted butchers) have an ability where they can teleport right into your face.

 

Cod3_zZz: I actually use a heavily forma'd latron prime, and when I am going on stealth missions, I usually swap out my 3rd elemental damage mod for a max level "hush", which does allow me to pick off enemies, without being alerted. I have a particular distaste for fully automatic weapons in most games, preferring things that feel more like actual infantry rifles. Also, I don't think a complete overhaul of the AI needs to be done, but just a slight retweaking, I think most of the issues with the AI is because one AI controls all the mobs at once, and individual points of view of each mob isn't taken into consideration.

 

Me.Greedy: That would be a good simple hotfix, but I think a better fix would be to have certain abilities that you could activate/deactivate that are tied to your sentinel and have your sentinel have it's own energy store. Having a shade sentinel that would essentially have a "cloaking field" that draws on it's own energy pool that you could activate/deactive yourself would be good, this would also pave the way for giving sentinels much more utility and give them an edge at being on par with the kubrow as you could give other sentinels other abilities that have similar 'manual' activation functions.

[nms.]

i think a consumable item that allows invisibility would be epic... give it a good 20-30 seconds, would solve this problem alot.

20-30 seconds? wat? it wouldn't solve anything, it would just render ash and loki worthless as it stands since now everyone can just go invisible from a "consumable" and have great cc and aoe damage for thirty holy seconds. Either make the materials for this "consumable" stupid rare and expensive, or make it so that if you attack you come out of stealth, and shorter duration.

 

I want snow globe in a consumable too, also, just ago ahead and include an iron skin, chaos and molecular prime alternative in a capsule.

Edited March 19, 2015 by nms64

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

20-30 seconds? wat? it wouldn't solve anything, it would just render ash and loki worthless as it stands since now everyone can just go invisible from a "consumable" and have great cc and aoe damage for thirty holy seconds. Either make the materials for this "consumable" stupid rare, or make it so that if you attack you come out of stealth and shorter duration, like the shade's or kubrow variants.

 

I want snow globe in a consumable too, also, just ago ahead and include an iron skin, chaos and molecular prime alternative in a capsule.

I lol'd

 

But really, I think how the shade/kubrow's invisibility field works is the best template for implementing a system of invisibility that would be available to more than just Loki/Ash.

[Brimir]

But there shouldn't be "a system of invidibility" for any other Warframes than Loki and Ash.

It is their thing.

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

But there shouldn't be "a system of invidibility" for any other Warframes than Loki and Ash.

It is their thing.

yes, but there already is a system of invisibility... shade / kubrow have it... it's a really S#&$ty system, but it's there.

[nms.]

yes, but there already is a system of invisibility... shade / kubrow have it... it's a really S#&$ty system, but it's there.

Well, I suppose that one is enough, you are not supposed to have invisibility, you have something else in exchange. Each warframe has its own skill, and that is the point of warframes, you use them as a tool for a specific job, they are a suit you wear over. You don't use a pajama to go to a business meeting. There is no one do it all, sure they overlap here and there, but not one is the same, some have drawbacks, others quite good advantages. You want to run through spy or deception missions without being seen? use loki or ash. Now grab these two and put them in the same gameplay as rhino, mesa or valkyr and see what happens. You are supposed to get other warframes apart the one you start with for this reason, specialize. Not ask to have one to be the best at everything... otherwise turn all abilities into mods and give me one single frame and I will pick and choose.

 

What would only need to be fixed is the way the enemy reacts to you while you are in the map, points 1 2 and 4. Not give loki's or ash invisibility to everyone. You already have two frames with invisibility and one even does group. When built for duration they start to lack in their other abilities, something for something. Want a female loki counterpart? you won't have the room clearing abilities of a fully damage oriented frame, that's for sure.

Edited March 19, 2015 by nms64

[Mudkiz]

-snip- Completely edited:

The problem with stealth in this game is, that there are not many rooms which are big and have places to hide from enemies sights. But reworking every room in the game at this point of development is... Well, it's not going to work. The best thing would be to give us an equipment that can make enemies not aware of our presence. I was thinking about grenades that sould break enemies line of sight/ stun them and make them unable to see. Well, if DE implemented grenade mechanic into the game (Basically something like an ability but instead of using mana it would recharge for quite a while like in mass effect/other recent RPGs), which have different utilities to them and one of them should be tear gas/smoke bomb. They would stun enemies in a 10-15 m radius (WF meters are really small, believe me) and make them unable to detect enemies. The effect should be, obviously, shorter than the recharge time. After the effect wearing off, enemies that you didn't kill and were affected, should become aware of your presence, but not attack you, instead they should start looking for you. Second of all, enemies shouldn't have telepatic abilities, that make everyone attack you in whole tileset, even before the enemy who notices you starts to shoot. I don't know if I missed anything. That's all I guess.

well there are grenades but they're not for us sadly. (those corrupted crewmen always ruining my long defenses)

[nms.]

well there are grenades but they're not for us sadly. (those corrupted crewmen always ruining my long defenses)

I suppose the concept of flashbangs and smoke grenades could be a thing. Granted, I'm taking this straight out of cs go, but, you could have 2 flashbangs and 1 smoke grenade issued per mission per person, and in survival be refillable every 10 minutes at a max of 1 and 2, unlockable after crafting the blueprint of a "pouch". Flashbang being a very short duration and short range stun, they will notice someone is there, but be blind and deaf for a few seconds. The smoke could be a cloud roughly the length of volt's electric shield that would help cover doorways or halls and the enemy will not rush through it. It would require an AI rework obviously, as the current AI is kind of stupid, i.e stealth killing a guy right in front of another with no alert being raised.

Edited March 19, 2015 by nms64

[Brimir]

yes, but there already is a system of invisibility... shade / kubrow have it... it's a really S#&$ty system, but it's there.

 

Yes and that's as far as the access to invisibility should go for non-stealth Warframes. No freakin' consumable, please.

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

Yes and that's as far as the access to invisibility should go for non-stealth Warframes. No freakin' consumable, please.

So the whole concept of space ninjas shouldn't go beyond Loki and Ash then? Invisibility that fades after the player attacks would not diminish the usefulness of Loki's or Ash's invisibility, as they can take out multiple opponents over the duration of their invisibility. Also, I am sorry, but having no *legitimate* female frame with true stealth capabilities in this game is a *HUGE* turnoff for myself, and many other female gamers.

[Brimir]

Why? You sexist or something? Got something against male Tenno? Also, FYI, the whole space ninja thing does not hinge on whether or not you're invisible.

[(PSN)Aerdrie]

Why? You sexist or something? Got something against male Tenno? Also, FYI, the whole space ninja thing does not hinge on whether or not you're invisible.

as I said in my original post: I have nothing against male tenno, but I have never felt comfortable playing male characters in video games, especially if I have a choice not to. Also, stealth is and always will be a big part of ninja lore, and the initial post was about how stealth is impossible in this game (as it is) without some form of invisibility.

[Brimir]

But not space ninja lore.

 

Space.

[(PSN)Zeylon]

But not space ninja lore.

 

Space.

 

No reason you can't have Space Kunoichi.

[UnderFiend]

OP, you made some valid points but you are able to stealth effectively with every frame, it just may take more effort if you're not using Ash or Loki's powers.

 

I was recently in a Spy Alert where pretty much everyone set off an alarm. The only frame that got through it unscathed was Nova. Considering she can jump all around the map, that's a pretty useful tool in not being seen. Valkyr like Nova can get out of line of sight and take the high or low road easier to the objective. Companions also help.

 

Your millage may vary but I don't think it's totally factual to say stealth begins and ends with Loki. I've mained Loki for a while and I've only started pressing 2 more often with him now with Spy missions when doing recon. My partner almost always plays Valkyr and we've done a number of successful Spy missions. It just comes down to approach and playstyle, really.