No Un-Banning After Second Incident?

[Inquisitioner]

lmao... the laughs you can get at forums sometimes.... +1 good sir and thank you for the brief fun :3

 

Always happy to provide, whenever I get a chuckle from a post I feel a need to return the favor!

[bitlard]

It's probably difficult for those who have never used cheat engine to imagine how possible it is for someone to make the innocent mistake of leaving the program running, and it's really easy to just call people who claim to have been wrongfully banned liars and cheaters, but if you just set that aside for a moment, and think about this from the point of view of a game developer, you should consider a few things.

 

1. Your aim should be to catch the real cheaters, and as far as possible, not implicate innocent gamers. Failing to do so makes you look callous and inept at programming.

 

2. Using a blunt instrument that bans people automatically for running a particular program is a really blunt instrument, that brings about the consequences stated above, and should only be used as a last resort. Sure, it is fully within your rights as stated within the EULA to ban anyone for even running what remotely smells like a cheating program, but then again it's also within your rights to just take away everyone's mods and weapons, but you won't do that because that'll really piss a lot of people off. In this case, it's within your EULA rights to ban anyone, but you won't do that because that'll just be really bad for business. Sure, the people who have cheat engine installed are a small minority, but no business gets good karma points for alienating even the smallest minority for no good reason.

 

3. Cheat engine, if not used to inject into warframe, isn't doing anything even remotely related to the warframe process. This comes close to an invasion of privacy. Even though the devs have stated that they don't scan anyone's computers, they ARE actually scanning for running processors, and banning users who are running cheat engine. If cheat engine isn't injected into warframe, there would be no way to detect whether it is running UNLESS warframe is scanning for other running processes on a person's computer. I daresay that's an invasion of privacy. It's really none of your business what I choose to run on my computer as long as it doesn't do anything to your program. Your program is your property, but my computer is mine. I should be allowed to do whatever I want on my computer. (and it's not cool for you to say otherwise in your EULA - there are restrictions to what you can put in your EULA you know)

[Eisvogel]

It's probably difficult for those who have never used cheat engine to imagine how possible it is for someone to make the innocent mistake of leaving the program running, and it's really easy to just call people who claim to have been wrongfully banned liars and cheaters, but if you just set that aside for a moment, and think about this from the point of view of a game developer, you should consider a few things.

 

1. Your aim should be to catch the real cheaters, and as far as possible, not implicate innocent gamers. Failing to do so makes you look callous and inept at programming.

 

2. Using a blunt instrument that bans people automatically for running a particular program is a really blunt instrument, that brings about the consequences stated above, and should only be used as a last resort. Sure, it is fully within your rights as stated within the EULA to ban anyone for even running what remotely smells like a cheating program, but then again it's also within your rights to just take away everyone's mods and weapons, but you won't do that because that'll really &!$$ a lot of people off. In this case, it's within your EULA rights to ban anyone, but you won't do that because that'll just be really bad for business. Sure, the people who have cheat engine installed are a small minority, but no business gets good karma points for alienating even the smallest minority for no good reason.

 

3. Cheat engine, if not used to inject into warframe, isn't doing anything even remotely related to the warframe process. This comes close to an invasion of privacy. Even though the devs have stated that they don't scan anyone's computers, they ARE actually scanning for running processors, and banning users who are running cheat engine. If cheat engine isn't injected into warframe, there would be no way to detect whether it is running UNLESS warframe is scanning for other running processes on a person's computer. I daresay that's an invasion of privacy. It's really none of your business what I choose to run on my computer as long as it doesn't do anything to your program. Your program is your property, but my computer is mine. I should be allowed to do whatever I want on my computer. (and it's not cool for you to say otherwise in your EULA - there are restrictions to what you can put in your EULA you know)

 

I mean no disrespect, but i can't take your post seriously.... really i just can't. You are saying that someone could make the "innocent mistake" of leaving a hacking program running while playing an online game? Even more... a program that is called CHEAT engine? please....

 

Also, don't call up "invasion of privacy" or that kind of BS.... if you want to cheat, do it happily, but not while playing a game online where you agreed not to cheat (in the game itself or OUTSIDE AS WELL). I'm more than happy with the insta bans honestly, that's my opinion

[Inquisitioner]

I mean no disrespect, but i can't take your post seriously.... really i just can't. You are saying that someone could make the "innocent mistake" of leaving a hacking program running while playing an online game? Even more... a program that is called CHEAT engine? please....

 

Also, don't call up "invasion of privacy" or that kind of BS.... if you want to cheat, do it happily, but not while playing a game online where you agreed not to cheat (in the game itself or OUTSIDE AS WELL). I'm more than happy with the insta bans honestly, that's my opinion

 

Cheat engine is great for when playing single-player games. Editing some stats or cash to make the game more enjoyable for yourself. I don't see what's wrong with it if you do not interact with warframe while using it. That's like putting someone in jail for shooting a gun just because they happen to own one. Bad analogy, but you get the point.

[Eisvogel]

Cheat engine is great for when playing single-player games. Editing some stats or cash to make the game more enjoyable for yourself. I don't see what's wrong with it if you do not interact with warframe while using it. That's like putting someone in jail for shooting a gun just because they happen to own one. Bad analogy, but you get the point.

 

Well look at it like this, maybe its a better analogy..... You rob a store and get away with it, BUT a store right next to it identifies you and sends you to jail even though you never robbed that one. It may be a rather harsh example but it serves the point.

 

It's all a matter of taking a stance against such actions. You still wanna do it for this and that? Okay, do it in your single players or other online games (its not okay but oh well...) just don't do it with warframe running. Is it really that hard? It's not like there are loading screens or it takes more than seconds to close and open xD

 

 

Edit: fun fact to your example for the lulz..... remember that without permits in many countries you'd go to jail for having a weapon in a public place/street.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Eisvogel

[bitlard]

Apart from just saying "please..." could you provide a logical reason why such a mistake is not an innocent and unintended one? Isn't it enitrely possible that the player was cheating in another unrelated, single player game? Do players now have the responsibility of checking all their running processes before they startup a game?

It looks like you're totally missing the point. The person IS cheating, but in another game, not in warframe. So your whole rant about how people shouldnt cheat in an online game is irrelevant. And the privacy thing isnt bs. The devs themselves raised it when they said they dont scan processes. I dont think you'll be calling it bs if a gaming company keeps records on what you run on your computer (porn for instance)

[Inquisitioner]

Well look at it like this, maybe its a better analogy..... You rob a store and get away with it, BUT a store right next to it identifies you and sends you to jail even though you never robbed that one. It may be a rather harsh example but it serves the point.

 

It's all a matter of taking a stance against such actions. You still wanna do it for this and that? Okay, do it in your single players or other online games (its not okay but oh well...) just don't do it with warframe running. Is it really that hard? It's not like there are loading screens or it takes more than seconds to close and open xD

 

 

Edit: fun fact to your example for the lulz..... remember that without permits in many countries you'd go to jail for having a weapon in a public place/street.

 

As I mentioned, bad analogy, just threw the first thing that came into my mind. I do agree that it is a real FAIL to have cheat engine running in the background if you're playing online games. Its easier to just close it down whenever you're not using it and save yourself all the trouble. Yours is just as bad. I don't see an offense in editing values in a single-player game, since it doesn't affect any other player. Online gaming is another question. I mean, its like comparing private property to public spaces.

 

However, I have read examples of brothers. Let's say you got a little brother sometimes gaming on your computer and he likes strategy games, but due to his young age lacks the skills to play them yet fully legit. So he uses cheat engine and boosts his money every now and then or something. Turns off the game but forgets about cheat engine, then you get there and just start-up Warframe to play, Oblivious to the cheat engine background process.

 

Is it fair for you to be banned then? I honestly believe more in banning people whom try to interact with the game using these kind of software rather than those just having or running it in background, in depended from Warframe itself.

 

The best solution to this would to have some kind of "Hack shield" software that doesn't allow you to launch Warframe if it detects those kind of software, rather than banning you for it.

[Eisvogel]

Apart from just saying "please..." could you provide a logical reason why such a mistake is not an innocent and unintended one? Isn't it enitrely possible that the player was cheating in another unrelated, single player game? Do players now have the responsibility of checking all their running processes before they startup a game?

It looks like you're totally missing the point. The person IS cheating, but in another game, not in warframe. So your whole rant about how people shouldnt cheat in an online game is irrelevant. And the privacy thing isnt bs. The devs themselves raised it when they said they dont scan processes. I dont think you'll be calling it bs if a gaming company keeps records on what you run on your computer (porn for instance)

 

Then it's you missing the point mate, and don't want to get you all fired up or anything.... but it doesn't matter if you cheat in Warframe or elsewhere, you don't even need to use it at all.... running it is enough to be a violation of what you AGREED to. Also, please mind that i'm not ranting, you guys are... i'm perfectly happy with this system.

 

So the fact alone of running it is enough for it to be neither innocent, nor a mistake. If you don't like it, online gaming is not for you as you'd be banned in so many games for having such thing just running.....

[Inquisitioner]

Then it's you missing the point mate, and don't want to get you all fired up or anything.... but it doesn't matter if you cheat in Warframe or elsewhere, you don't even need to use it at all.... running it is enough to be a violation of what you AGREED to. Also, please mind that i'm not ranting, you guys are... i'm perfectly happy with this system.

 

So the fact alone of running it is enough for it to be neither innocent, nor a mistake. If you don't like it, online gaming is not for you as you'd be banned in so many games for having such thing just running.....

 

I'm not ranting nor disputing the system. The focal point of my criticism's the ridiculous decision to bring in a system where you ban an account when it's suspected that "cheating" has been detected, even if the user definite didn't. I think it should be in their best interest to bin this, yes? 'Cause isn't it a respected respected institution that we're considered innocent unless different is proven? Er, excuse me - how can you excuse exclusion when you've not pursued a definite conclusion?

 

Maybe that's why people are being unbanned after all, even though the launcher states 

 

"Tool enabled to ban all cheaters. NO EXCEPTIONS."

[Quetzhal]

2. Using a blunt instrument that bans people automatically for running a particular program is a really blunt instrument

Small correction: You get banned for running any program as long as it happens to share the same name as CheatEngine's executable (or variations thereof, I assume - I tested renaming Allods_US.exe to cheatengine.exe and it got the account banned, though I found out later CE's executable isn't quite named like that). There are also steps after that taken to ban someone who might change the name, of course.

[bitlard]

Then it's you missing the point mate, and don't want to get you all fired up or anything.... but it doesn't matter if you cheat in Warframe or elsewhere, you don't even need to use it at all.... running it is enough to be a violation of what you AGREED to. Also, please mind that i'm not ranting, you guys are... i'm perfectly happy with this system.

 

So the fact alone of running it is enough for it to be neither innocent, nor a mistake. If you don't like it, online gaming is not for you as you'd be banned in so many games for having such thing just running.....

 

Would be nice if you actually read my initial post. The EULA is extremely broad. Digital Extreme can basically suspend any user for ANY reason it deems fit, and it can change the EULA at ANY time without informing users. Legally, this is fully within the company's rights, but that's irrelevant. The question is not whether it is legally entitled to do so, but whether doing so is good for its relationship with the player base. The basis for the arguments here isn't that Digital Extreme is violating any legal obligation. The argument is that it's not something DE should do because it's unfair to innocent players and harms it's relationship with the player base (although clearly not with auto-ban fanboys like yourself).

 

There are many online games which don't ban players for the simple act of running cheat engine. They only ban if you use it to inject warframe and modify values on the process. "If you don't like it, online gaming is not for you" - one can say the same to anyone who suggests anything they don't like.

[crow-k]

Quote" There's no point in banning for cheat engine, before the cheat update, my friend which is a programmer tried to hack and the data is clearly in the database. That is for the credits and platinum."Quote

 

 

 

Yep. He cheated, told you and you tell everyone else, hope someone tells DE, so we can be sure to support him in his efforts to get unbanned after admitting doing exactly what he was caught doing. 

 

Your honor, I did not steal that item. I tried before and once I got it home decided to return it for a refund so why would i steal it again. 

[bitlard]

Quote" There's no point in banning for cheat engine, before the cheat update, my friend which is a programmer tried to hack and the data is clearly in the database. That is for the credits and platinum."Quote

 

 

 

Yep. He cheated, told you and you tell everyone else, hope someone tells DE, so we can be sure to support him in his efforts to get unbanned after admitting doing exactly what he was caught doing. 

 

Your honor, I did not steal that item. I tried before and once I got it home decided to return it for a refund so why would i steal it again. 

You're right. It doesn't matter whether you cheated before Update 7.8 or after, cheating is cheating, and if you cheated you should be banned. But this isn't just about this player in particular. It's about DE's policy with regard to scanning processes, and it's autoban system.

[crow-k]

Would be nice if you actually read my initial post. The EULA is extremely broad. Digital Extreme can basically suspend any user for ANY reason it deems fit, and it can change the EULA at ANY time without informing users. Legally, this is fully within the company's rights, but that's irrelevant. The question is not whether it is legally entitled to do so, but whether doing so is good for its relationship with the player base. The basis for the arguments here isn't that Digital Extreme is violating any legal obligation. The argument is that it's not something DE should do because it's unfair to innocent players and harms it's relationship with the player base (although clearly not with auto-ban fanboys like yourself).

 

There are many online games which don't ban players for the simple act of running cheat engine. They only ban if you use it to inject warframe and modify values on the process. "If you don't like it, online gaming is not for you" - one can say the same to anyone who suggests anything they don't like.

yes, the company can ban the users for any reason/no reason, but they do not. The fact that other games do not ban hacks/cheats is their decision  DE and most players who do not use cheats will not spend much time feeling sympathy for those who do and get caught. You can redefine what you think is cheating and not cheating and that is your decision. If you had a game that could be your definition. DE has a system that works and works well, the only problem is people saying it works too well. If only that were a more common problem. Usually these things do not work at all and you D2 all over again.

 

Also, I have read plenty of praise for them reviewing bans and overturning many of them. many people with the OPs "friends" issue have returned to gaming and learned their lesson. 

Edited May 10, 2013 by crow-k

[smithf]

amidst the heated arguments, I would like to point out just one fact:

 

The banning is to protect the game experience of the majority of the players who do not cheat.

(Unless some staff derive secret satisfactions from distressing cheat program users?)

 

And frankly speaking, it isn't like the staff do not want to catch only the real cheaters. The amount of social and technical difficulties involved will be tremendous. Do we really want the staff to take a lot of their staff off actual game development to do anti-cheat stuff?

 

I totally agree that the current solution isn't perfect.  But at least there are no obvious dead ends. appeals via support tickets CAN be made the first time (not sure about repeated violations for the same cheat-app however)

But I think it is acceptable (for lack of better alternatives) until a more feasible solution becomes available (if it ever comes).

[bitlard]

amidst the heated arguments, I would like to point out just one fact:

 

The banning is to protect the game experience of the majority of the players who do not cheat.

(Unless some staff derive secret satisfactions from distressing cheat program users?)

 

And frankly speaking, it isn't like the staff do not want to catch only the real cheaters. The amount of social and technical difficulties involved will be tremendous. Do we really want the staff to take a lot of their staff off actual game development to do anti-cheat stuff?

 

I totally agree that the current solution isn't perfect.  But at least there are no obvious dead ends. appeals via support tickets CAN be made the first time (not sure about repeated violations for the same cheat-app however)

But I think it is acceptable (for lack of better alternatives) until a more feasible solution becomes available (if it ever comes).

No argument there. This seems like a preferable alternative to increasing the gaming costs by having to pay for punkbuster's services, but I'm sure that with all of the dev's genius, someone within that team should be able to figure out a way to distinguish between someone who merely has cheat engine running, and someone who uses cheat engine to inject warframe.

[Eisvogel]

No argument there. This seems like a preferable alternative to increasing the gaming costs by having to pay for punkbuster's services, but I'm sure that with all of the dev's genius, someone within that team should be able to figure out a way to distinguish between someone who merely has cheat engine running, and someone who uses cheat engine to inject warframe.

 

thank the lord for not having punkbuster..... maybe you haven't played a game with it... but i have, lots... and let me tell you, get PB and you'll start seeing some real false positives, they'll pile up like garbage. It's the worst crap i've known... am i glad we dont have that..... That crap sometimes even boots you for no apparent reason, it's garbage.

[crow-k]

thank the lord for not having punkbuster..... maybe you haven't played a game with it... but i have, lots... and let me tell you, get PB and you'll start seeing some real false positives, they'll pile up like garbage. It's the worst crap i've known... am i glad we dont have that..... That crap sometimes even boots you for no apparent reason, it's garbage.

Just one more thing to thank DE for.

[SymphNo9]

Since we are still in beta and DE is working on full power with limited staff, I think they just took a bold decision and blacklisted all potential threats to Warframe. Whether that was a right or wrong decision is debatable. Aside from the obvious cases, Warframe doesn't have much security right now and if someone was serious about finding loopholes, they would be able to do so without any consequences beside of getting their dummy account banned.

 

I think they should keep the focus on the in-game content and polish the game, when that is at a satisfactory level, then we can start to worry about a robust security system. Also, as I mentioned before in an earlier thread...delay the bans like VAC, to make debugging a hell for the hackers.

 

Also to OP, your friend should be more careful. He got a second chance and still didn't learn anything from it.

[Bakim0n0]

 

There's no point in banning for cheat engine, before the cheat update, my friend which is a programmer tried to hack and the data is clearly in the database. That is for the credits and platinum.

Love this.

Before the auto detector he tried to hack the game, but now he hasn't and got banned twice.

Hmm.

Instead of telling us about it, talk to support. To me it sounds like he's pretty suspect... either way I can only take your story at face value, and at face value you're essentially mad that your friend who is an admitted cheater and hacker got banned for fooling around with things he knows he gets banned for.

[GottFaust]

So he/she tried to hack the game and got banned. He/She then contacted support and got unbanned with a no-more-leniency-warning. He/She then proceeded to run the same program that got him/her banned the first time the very next day and got banned again...

I don't see the problem. There are huge warnings plastered all over the site, launcher, and game... He/She had plenty of warning and even direct warning from support after experiencing the consequences personally. There is no excuse for what he/she did at this point and they deserve their ban.

Edited May 10, 2013 by GottFaust

[Mr.Monday]

.This is an excellent reason for not investing $250 into a single game that is still working out its bugs, thank you gryphticon

So you are saying all the founders, especially grand masters, who practically pay for this game to keep going so everyone can play it, should have just remained f2pers?

They are paying to support the game, not to invest in it, they dont own part of the company but they DO help keep it running.

GOD I miss the downvote button.

[Kishward]

The rule is simple: If you have a blacklisted "hack/cheat" program running at the same time as Warframe, you get banned.

 

That's it. There is no sub-text, no hidden message about the integrity of cheaters or convoluted lessons on morality.

 

It's simple black and white.

 

It's the most effective way to stave off cheating and I hope DE sticks with it.

[bitlard]

The rule is simple: If you have a blacklisted "hack/cheat" program running at the same time as Warframe, you get banned.

 

That's it. There is no sub-text, no hidden message about the integrity of cheaters or convoluted lessons on morality.

 

It's simple black and white.

 

It's the most effective way to stave off cheating and I hope DE sticks with it.

Problem is, you ain't supposed to be scanning my computer for what other processors I am running. You have no right to do so because what I choose to do with all the other RAM/processing power that my computer has is none of your business. It only becomes your business if I use a program to touch your program. (i.e. injecting a process)

 

Sure it's a simple way to get rid of the dumbest cheaters, but it isn't the most effective (for the really good cheaters), nor the fairest. I'm not saying that DE must change it NAO, but that it's something worth looking into.

Edited May 10, 2013 by bitlard

[GottFaust]

Problem is, you ain't supposed to be scanning my computer for what other processors I am running. You have no right to do so because what I choose to do with all the other RAM/processing power that my computer has is none of your business. It only becomes your business if I use a program to touch your program. (i.e. injecting a process)

 

Sure it's a simple way to get rid of the dumbest cheaters, but it isn't the most effective (for the really good cheaters), nor the fairest. I'm not saying that DE must change it NAO, but that it's something worth looking into.

You are completely ignorant about the subject you are attempting to talk about. Best to stop now before you make yourself look worse.