Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

In the last "only heavy melee event" in wich you had to play an interception mission lvl 100-150, Unless you had a loki prime Full OP radial disarm , a full slow down enemies nova , a full nyx and a full ulti ash with you, the only you got for reward for that mision was a kick in your balls.

 

To be fair, I did it in a group of 2 Hydroids a Valkyr and a Loki.

[Zackas]

To be fair, I did it in a group of 2 Hydroids a Valkyr and a Loki.

Well im sure that can be more than one combination of warframes to get done that mision but in my case i did it with loki nyx nova and ash and we won but only for 2% 

 

message decoded

my team: 100%

grinniers: 98%

 

But even in my case or in yours you may agree with me when i say that this mission couldn't have being done with a Nerf loki

[ThePresident777]

Walls of text notwithstanding, Warframe is a successful product precisely because of all the OP stuff. 

 

1)  The fact is that anyone can self nerf and doing so provides a very lonely game experience.  If nerfs were popular, playing OP would be a very lonely game experience, but it's not.  OP is where all the action is at. 

 

2)  The fact is that nerf is where everyone starts the game for free.  Nerf is entirely free.  No one can buy nerf.   So all the money spent on the game is for power, not nerf.  Given the choice, most people will choose OP and even spend money on it.  OP is where all the money is at.

 

3)  The fact is that game developers, and DE is no exception here, advertise OP, not balance or nerf, because they know that is what sells and that balance and nerf does not sell.

 

4)  Fact, the core of Warframe is supposed to be OP:

 

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

 

5)  The fact is that Warframe is a product, a successful one, and people expect their purchases to be respected or they will take their business some where else to a reputable and reliable business, not a scam artist which is what nerf, balance, and re-write threads advise DE to become, a scam artist destroying the reason why people spent money and made DE successful.

[ZayTM]

In theory, it makes sense for RD to have a duration. It's the only permanent CC in the game right now, and Loki normally builds for duration anyway. However, I do propose that RD have a set range (or at least a minimum range) that's fairly generous in size, maybe 35m, so that Loki could use Narrow Minded without getting really hosed. It would also make modding loki less reliant on corrupted mods. It would need to be implemented very carefully, as Loki isn't so horribly OP that he's ruining the game. He's definitely on the strong side, but he has enough weaknesses that it mostly balances out.

Molecular Prime is another whole hornet's nest. It defininitely does too much, but I don't know what you would do with it without making it lose its use or identity. Maybe limit or remove the slow, but I don't play with Nova or enough Novas to really make a judgment on that. So for the most part I will leave the state of Novas balance or lack thereof to people who actually know her well.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Why should be all warframes equals? I think that the main point that makes a game interesting is the variety of Characters (warframes in this case) and the variety of abilities and powers.

 

About people who is crying !!!NERF NERF NERF¡¡¡ only becouse they can only play 5 rounds at a T3 defense in void and they see how other players have much better gear than they becouse they have more experience and have being playing since the open beta started, there's nothing much to say.

 

In T4 defense as an example since the nerf of frost unless you have Full powered  globe you won't be able to run more than 30 rounds unless you have 3 players with more OP gear.

 

Talking to Kelgov, the creator of this topic/post. I don't know how long have you being playing but, for give you an example, in the last "only heavy melee event" in wich you had to play an interception mission lvl 100-150, Unless you had a loki prime Full OP radial disarm , a full slow down enemies nova , a full nyx and a full ulti ash with you, the only you got for reward for that mision was a kick in your balls.

 

I recognise that there's some little points that if they were nerfed it could give to the game a bit of excitement but NOT ALL!!

 

So Don't F*** me please, one of the points that makes Warframe amused is the gladness you get from improving your gear and becoming a GOD assasin of grinniers, if DE obey each time that some new and jealous noob cry for a new nerf, they will break the thing that makes warframe such a good game, they ere trying yo give us the best gaming experience and ,personaly, i think that what makes a game interesting is becoming stronger and stronger, and this is reflected in your misions when you see that you can hold more rounds in defense than before, IT's not necesary nerf warframes becouse when you started the round number 95 you have a really @(*()$ awsome game with your friends.

 

So instead of crying for a nerf only becouse of some "new players" aren't good enought, play and become stronger and i can assure you that you will have a really enjoyable game with your beloved Captain Vor braking you theet with janus key strike

 

Maybe i'm wrong with some points but it's my opinion, and i'm sure that i'm not the only one that thinks the same.

 

Big edit: You are basically right. The only thing is that this variety is rather narrow, leading to a few frames that can deal with everything and few other fill into a niche.

 

What I try to say is: some frames are sticking out so much that the choice ofvusing them is always right or even mandatory.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[ThePresident777]

Saying that a minority of content, OP content, makes not-OP content obsolete is an admission that "balance" or nerfs, are not popular not profitable.  If "balance" or nerfs were popular, people would be playing that content and spending money on it and DE would be advertising more of it.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[SIDESTRE4M]

Take that escalation event for an example. And now raid is a big thing.

 

The challenge is based on a few things that makes many frames just the wrong choice. Warframe becomes more gear dependant andil if that gear always includes the same few frames for the best result, then something is wrong about it.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

You write all this, even mentioning that that event was most likely impossible without certain frames, basically say that you even think frames shouldn't be equal...

 

It is beyond my comprehension.

 

You totally misunderstood progression. Progression is NOT that you advance from a weaker frame to a stronger frame except prime variant.

 

At least it SHOULD not be like this. Well if you think it's cool to have a few frames making others obsolete, there is nothing I can do.

 

None of the frames are better for every situation. Loki is a trickster class, CC is his bread and butter. He already has minuscule energy, toss him having to throw RD around WITH his stealth, WHILE he's so weak. That doesn't seem balanced. Maybe increase his energy 2x then? That might be viable.

Nova is a glass cannon. Massive potential for huge damage dealing, breaks very easily. I'd say the main problem with Nova in this, is she is generally only played one way. Perhaps work on that DE, instead of nerfing. Which is silly anyway. To max MP, you need a Reactor, atleast 1 forma, corrupted mods, etc. Not necessarily too high an expectation to have an amazing ability at the end of it.

 

 

Take that escalation event for an example. And now raid is a big thing.

 

The challenge is based on a few things that makes many frames just the wrong choice. Warframe becomes more gear dependant andil if that gear always includes the same few frames for the best result, then something is wrong about it.

 

Some frames have overlapping roles. It generally relies on player preference. With only 4 slots, you need to be fastidious about which you pick. I don't think it's unbalanced that the (T. Alert Escalation or Raid as example) frames built for CC, damage, defense are used for their purpose. It generally comes down to player preference, and a lot don't seem to try new things unfortunately, so they stick to what they've seen works.

 

[ThePresident777]

1)  Some content is for people who want OP and some content is for people who do not want OP, just like some content is for AW and some is not for AW.  In fact, Extra Credits, who is often quoted in support of nerfs, and "balance", promotes such disparities for a purpose: 

 

 

2)  And, there is PvP, showing that the same content can have different configurations for different purposes.

 

So, the crusade against OP has no foundation.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Zackas]

In theory, it makes sense for RD to have a duration. It's the only permanent CC in the game right now, and Loki normally builds for duration anyway. However, I do propose that RD have a set range (or at least a minimum range) that's fairly generous in size, maybe 35m, so that Loki could use Narrow Minded without getting really hosed. It would also make modding loki less reliant on corrupted mods. It would need to be implemented very carefully, as Loki isn't so horribly OP that he's ruining the game. He's definitely on the strong side, but he has enough weaknesses that it mostly balances out.

 

Maybe you're right about the range of RD but, Your argument for adding duration to radial disrupt is that RD is the only ability with no duration in the game?

 

SINCERLY, REALLY?

 

In one quote i saied before, the definition of radial disrupt of loki is "disrupt enemy weapons" if you disrupt a weapon you technically destroy the weapon so if you add a duration to radial disrupt this means that an enemy can repair their weapon and start shooting you again. 

 

Someone who can repair a weapon in the middle of a fight? in this case, Talkin about an NPC that can repair a weapon while you're shooting it?

 

Well for me, if we talk about how it could be radial disrupt ir a real figth i think that adding duration to this ability has no sense.

 

At least is my opion, not pretending being ofensive. 

[Eldnacpeek]

Is this a joke?

[SIDESTRE4M]

None of the frames are better for every situation. Loki is a trickster class, CC is his bread and butter. He already has minuscule energy, toss him having to throw RD around WITH his stealth, WHILE he's so weak. That doesn't seem balanced. Maybe increase his energy 2x then? That might be viable.

Nova is a glass cannon. Massive potential for huge damage dealing, breaks very easily. I'd say the main problem with Nova in this, is she is generally only played one way. Perhaps work on that DE, instead of nerfing. Which is silly anyway. To max MP, you need a Reactor, atleast 1 forma, corrupted mods, etc. Not necessarily too high an expectation to have an amazing ability at the end of it.

 

 

 

Some frames have overlapping roles. It generally relies on player preference. With only 4 slots, you need to be fastidious about which you pick. I don't think it's unbalanced that the (T. Alert Escalation or Raid as example) frames built for CC, damage, defense are used for their purpose. It generally comes down to player preference, and a lot don't seem to try new things unfortunately, so they stick to what they've seen works.

 

Don't get me wrong. Of course we have CC frames and damage frames. They should be used for their purpose. Otherwise the game makes no sense.

 

But at level 80+ nearly every frame is a glass canon. You get hit, you are probably done for.

 

Then the only way to survive is, snaring the enemy hard. That means of course more frames come into mind than just Loki or Nova. However these two frames are just the top of the top. Loki renders enemies useless forever and Nova practically does the same. Yoi just can't deny that those two are just so incredibly strong on their own and that it's not balanced because they have useless shields and health at that level.

 

The escalation event and the raids really showed us the gap. Before we could shrug it off because enemies that high were only present in long term infinite missions which were outside of the balance area. That has changed.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[ThePresident777]

High level enemies and raids are optional.  Not everything has to be universally applicable to all playing tastes or styles.

[vaugahn]

1)  Some content is for people who want OP and some content is for people who do not want OP, just like some content is for AW and some is not for AW.  In fact, Extra Credits, who is often quoted in support of nerfs, and "balance", promotes such disparities for a purpose: n.

 

Except unlike AW, that content all exists within the same sphere and has to be reconciled.

[TheBrsrkr]

Troll harder OP. I almost bought it. Almost.

~GR8 B8 M8~

[ThePresident777]

Like AW, OP and not-OP should not exist in the same sphere, like motor oil and drinking water.  People who want OP and people who want not-OP should not have to tolerate each other in the same missions any more than people who want to dance to club music and people who want to dance to country music shouldn't have to tolerate each other at the same dance, unless they like to mix those things.

 

If someone went to a country music dance and started ranting about country music and demanding that the proprietor stop playing country music and instead play opera, that person would be bounced out the door.  Or, if the owner has a seperate opera facility, maybe politely directed to it.  The proprietor would have enough sense to not give into the demands, and possibly look into starting a seperate opera hall for such an audience.

 

But, people seem to lose a sense of reality when confronted with the flexible nature of software, thereby forgetting that it's meant for human consumption and so common expectations and decency still apply.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[LordRaine]

Loki's disarm with Nova's MP is too OP and make defense missions dull and boring. Please nerf them to make the game more challenging.

Loki is probably the most balanced frame in the entire game because all of his skills scale indefinately and equally to the enemies you are facing. And you think he needs to be nerfed?

 

If anything, more frames need to be like Loki. You can practically measure the meta by which frames do things that don't directly deal damage compared to ones that do. Oh look, Ember is garbage, Excal is now as well with the U16 nerf, Saryn is barely useable with both Power Strength Corrupted mods on, and Oberon is still trash against anything past Jupiter. Meanwhile, Loki is the most balanced frame in the game, Vauban and Frost are at their best when focusing on their support abilities to the exclusion of all else, Rhino is run for Stomp CC and Roar and nothing else, Trinity is still queen even though they nerfed her twice, and the best things Volt does are his shields and speed boost.

 

It's almost like all the things in the game that are actually balanced don't focus on dealing damage. Like all the armor and health scaling math is complete gibberish, and the best way to contribute to the team when facing a level 90 Corrupted Heavy Gunner with more armor than you have in health and shields is to buff your allies or change the rules of the playing field.

 

Like it would be better if they just completely restructured the frame powers and either made nukers deal damage based on the % of the enemy's health, or simply removed them entirely and gave them new abilities.

 

It's almost like Loki is a great and balanced frame because none of his abilities focus on dealing damage, and that more frames should be like that.

 

Do you know why Fastnova is useful for Defenses and Survivals? For that matter, do you even know what it IS?

 

What kind of scrub are you?

 

Scratch that, stupid question. You don't understand that it is not the speed debuff that makes MP powerful, since you're arguing that that's the part that should be nerfed. You're the scrubbiest kind of scrub.

 

We just had this argument with the Sudacore. We just had this argument, and now you're starting it up again? With the same absurd reasoning, even?

 

What IS it with you people and wanting to destroy the only entertaining things in this game? And what is it with people who understand nothing of the game's meta or mechanics thinking they know all the solutions to our problems?

Edited March 25, 2015 by LordRaine

[Cancer_Cowboy]

Loki is probably the most balanced frame in the entire game because all of his skills scale indefinately and equally to the enemies you are facing. And you think he needs to be nerfed?

If anything, more frames need to be like Loki. You can practically measure the meta by which frames do things that don't directly deal damage compared to ones that do. Oh look, Ember is garbage, Excal is now as well with the U16 nerf, Saryn is barely useable with both Power Strength Corrupted mods on, and Oberon is still trash against anything past Jupiter. Meanwhile, Loki is the most balanced frame in the game, Vauban and Frost are at their best when focusing on their support abilities to the exclusion of all else, Rhino is run for Stomp CC and Roar and nothing else, Trinity is still queen even though they nerfed her twice, and the best things Volt does are his shields and speed boost.

It's almost like all the things in the game that are actually balanced don't focus on dealing damage. Like all the armor and health scaling math is complete gibberish, and the best way to contribute to the team when facing a level 90 Corrupted Heavy Gunner with more armor than you have in health and shields is to buff your allies or change the rules of the playing field.

Like it would be better if they just completely restructured the frame powers and either made nukers deal damage based on the % of the enemy's health, or simply removed them entirely and gave them new abilities.

It's almost like Loki is a great and balanced frame because none of his abilities focus on dealing damage, and that more frames should be like that.

Do you know why Fastnova is useful for Defenses and Survivals? For that matter, do you even know what it IS?

What kind of scrub are you?

Scratch that, stupid question. You don't understand that it is not the speed debuff that makes MP powerful, since you're arguing that that's the part that should be nerfed. You're the scrubbiest kind of scrub.

We just had this argument with the Sudacore. We just had this argument, and now you're starting it up again? With the same absurd reasoning, even?

What IS it with you people and wanting to destroy the only entertaining things in this game? And what is it with people who understand nothing of the game's meta or mechanics thinking they know all the solutions to our problems?

Amen. The lord hath spoken!

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

What people mean when they say balanced is the amount of imbalance they find fun. Some people like more imbalance left in the game than others. For some it actually can offer them more choices in their game play since they can choose when to feel OP and when not to. It can be fun for the types of players who enjoy it. I like to go back and forth. 

 

Nova and Loki are strong. I do not agree that they are too strong. This is my opinion, and obviously some others feel differently, but anyone who is saying that their opinion is fact is only helping the thread turn into bashing. It's very likely that there will not be a constructive discussion when it's on a topic like this since the two sides simply do not have the same opinion - no one is right. 

 

Since it's all opinion anyway, here's mine: if someone wants to play them as if they have been nerfed, they can easily adjust their mods to get the job done, just like some players refuse to use Rhino with a boltor. If other Loki/Nova players are the issue, they could play solo, avoid groups with those characters, or simply use the recruiting chat to make a group without what they do not like. It is my opinion that this could fix the issue without having to impact the fun of other players. I think if it means enough to a player to ask developers to limit the choices of the entire player base, they should have at least taken those steps first.

 

I do not believe that a nerf to those frames would result in a direct re-balance of any other enemies/etc. I think that if the two frames were nerfed, there would just be a large portion of the player base that would have a lot of options taken away from them. 

 

That being said, if there was a larger pass looking at some of the cheap tactics of the enemies, I would likely be more open to a discussion of *possible* changes to warframes, but changes to these warframes alone makes no sense to me because to me they are not outliers when viewed in the context of the game. (Part of this may be the fact that I have seen just about every warframe played by the right player with the right mods "trivialize" much of the game play). 

 

Overall, the part that solidifies how I feel is that nerfing/balancing does prevent some of the fun of those who find Loki and Nova to be fine. Leaving them as is, however, does nothing to prevent those who want a nerf/balance from playing those characters without certain mods to limit their power. I like having options. 

 

I do respect that others feel differently, but I do think that OP's title should have been "IMO Loki and Nova are OP and I Want Them to be Nerfed", "want them to be " not "they must be". 

[vaugahn]

Like it would be better if they just completely restructured the frame powers and either made nukers deal damage based on the % of the enemy's health, or simply removed them entirely and gave them new abilities.

 

Obvious solution: remove infinite scaling of enemy stats. Cap them within a certain level range and scale difficulty through enemy composition/type.

 

It's hard to tell what's balanced when the upper target for balance is infinity (or 8035, or whatever the cap is now). If there was a hard range for enemy stats, it would be very easy to tell what things are balanced or otherwise.

[AsahiOka]

Why not just play with other frames? You know, you can play without loki/nova in your defense mission if you want a challenge. But don't RUIN the FUN for the rest of people who like to play with these frames.

[Grom-84]

Loki's disarm with Nova's MP is too OP and make defense missions dull and boring. Please nerf them to make the game more challenging. I suggest some minimum tweaks:

Loki disarm seems to be the only permanent cc in the game and is too OP. please add a duration to this ability.

Nova's MP already has superior damage bonus. speed debuff affected by power strength is overdone. please cap the maximum speed debuff to 30% or less.

NO! Add a cooldown for 30seconds for disarm and 1 minute for invis!!!! And you'll see how numbers of loki's will shortly decrease dramatically!

Edited March 25, 2015 by Grom-84

[ThePresident777]

Capping enemies to a small number reduces variety and choice for players.  The higher the enemy level, the more glassy players can be, the more reaction speed the players needs, the less room for error the player has, the less face tanking they can get away with, the faster the players die.  Capping enemy level produces less choice in how fast the game play is.

 

The same goes for capping enemy spawns.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ThePresident777

[7Lions]

Relax and ask yourself if the system still works without those abilities.

 

Show me a raid without Lokis and Novas.

 

Those two abilities are OP. The lack of balancing is real.

 

I run 4 thru 8 man raids with zero lokis or novas in squad, and my squad holds top position in the leaderboards.

 

http://content.warframe.com/dynamic/raidStatsArchive.php

 

Those two frames are not OP, its just the meta of the game and the synergy that they have that complements each other. 

[NEONOVUS]

I want my super fun and OP frame abilities until I get a decent parkour system that has equal parts Matrix bullet time, Shonen anime craters everywhere, and Fist of the North Star effects. Until then I want the powers to be even more powerful! I want volt to cast Bolt and have the whole time be screaming Unlimited Powah! Hydroid to laugh a hearty laugh as he makes it rain. Oberon to summon monsters of not just unusual size, but of elements.