Defense 1-80 ~ Difficulty And Reward Scaling Proven To Be Completely Off

[Aerensiniac]

The stream can be found at: http://www.twitch.tv/bsbwarframe/c/2264123

 

So first of all: Not only did they get an uncommon hellfire mod for completing a 4 hour marathon at wave 80, the drops remain constantly useless through out the entire match.

 

Quoting wiki (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mods)

 

 

- Dispatching enemies. It has now been confirmed that the higher level the enemy, the rarer the mod that they can drop. Though, higher level enemies do not have a higher drop rate. Mods are always dropped as level 0 mods. The type of mod will appear in the right center of the screen when a mod is picked up. sometimes, they will be cores (see fusion energy, below).

 

- Ever since the 7.7 Update, Common Mods will now drop at a high percentile, Uncommon mods with drop at a lower percentile and Rare Mods will drop at an extremely low percentile. However, the chances of obtaining Rare Mods are increased in higher levels.

 

- Every 5 waves of defense missions will offer you a reward if you decide to exit. The rewards are random each time but tend to offer rarer mods the higher the wave you get to. With the new 7.7 Update, Defense mission rewards have become the main source of Rare Mods.

 

I would consider most of these entries fallacious at best.

Even IF there is any form of reward scaling with difficulty, it clearly needs a lot more thought and tuning cause just like it has been expressed a hundred thousand times with the last patch that made mod and resource acquisition impossible upon failing the mission: There is no point in going to higher waves other than bragging rights.

You are by definition still a hundred times better off with going till wave 5 or 10 and then just redoing the entire mission again.

 

There needs to be a true, tangible reason to actually aim for higher waves.

Whether its resources, mod drops or special rewards once hitting a specific level, it does not matter, but as it stands, it seems to that nothing has been done to resolve the scaling issue.

It is completely and utterly irrational to get a common staggering force mod after sitting for 5 hours in a defense match and reaching level 100.

 

Personally i recommend the creation of special blueprints and/or cosmetic items which can be only gotten from (i.e.) each 25 or 50 waves, so even in the case that nothing has been done for scaling, it would still offer some sort of compensation, (and whats more important) point to go higher defense waves.

Also: i find it unlikely that the devs would ever want to touch mod drop rates (giving better rates would make mod packs obsolete) as a conclusion i recommend the amplification of (at least) resources through out waves (U8 and base building is coming anyway).

 

And Steve: You really do owe these guys one of those pink shorts.

 

EDIT (on Gravefire's behalf, the creator of the footage):

1. The person who made the comment of us having DE_Steve and DE_Rebecca and that was our gift. We invited everyone to the stream they just happened to show up(and twitted the event) and wanted to see how far we could get. We have had some of the community mangers come in and chill and talk with us.

2. We did this for fun and as a challenge for us as a guild.

3. Aerensiniac isn't part of BsB. But his concern of why go higher in Waves/Mobs attempts if the rewarded is not greater has a point. ( But again we did it for fun)

4. We had a few rare MODs(2 streamlines and 2 focus and maybe a continuity)  plus 2 Banish Blueprints drop during the event.

5. Remember this is a game and currently there is no End Game so we just made our own for the clan or clans ( If someone can get higher would love to see it)

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Ninjaman999]

I still find it stupid that Defense is the main source of rare mods because some folks like me aren't fans of standing around to clean hoards. They should make the rates more common for every other mode :(

And every reward past the first 15 waves should rare because many of us have no patience for it past level 10

[Gregio]

It's a CHANCE for greater rarity, not a guarantee.

I posted this in a different thread:

There are multiple lists of items to be given to the player. Common, Uncommon, Rare.

At Wave 5, it's probably something like this.
Common: 90%
Uncommon: 7.5%
Rare: 2.5%

At Wave 10.
Common 85%
Uncommon 10%
Rare 5%

At Wave 45
Common 70%
Uncommon 20%
Rare 10%

Or something like that.

Uncommon might be around 50% or so after Wave 20, so something like
Common 50%
Uncommon 40%
Rare 10%

That's how RNG works. You can always get S#&$ty rewards, at the highest of difficulties.
And you might just be lucky and get good rewards on wave 5.

[dEEkAy2k9]

It's a CHANCE for greater rarity, not a guarantee.

I posted this in a different thread:

There are multiple lists of items to be given to the player. Common, Uncommon, Rare.

At Wave 5, it's probably something like this.

Common: 90%

Uncommon: 7.5%

Rare: 2.5%

At Wave 10.

Common 85%

Uncommon 10%

Rare 5%

At Wave 45

Common 70%

Uncommon 20%

Rare 10%

Or something like that.

Uncommon might be around 50% or so after Wave 20, so something like

Common 50%

Uncommon 40%

Rare 10%

That's how RNG works. You can always get S#&$ty rewards, at the highest of difficulties.

And you might just be lucky and get good rewards on wave 5.

 

is this just guesswork or can you prove that?

 

reaching wave 80 should damn well award you with a rare mod 100% of the time since it REALLY takes lots of time to get to wave 80 and a good team.

[LoRDxDeMoN]

Hellfire is the bee's knees, I don't know why you hatin'.

[LongDraw]

I still find it stupid that Defense is the main source of rare mods because some folks like me aren't fans of standing around to clean hoards. They should make the rates more common for every other mode :(

And every reward past the first 15 waves should rare because many of us have no patience for it past level 10

Although I agree with the OPs post, I have to disagree with you Ninjaman999.  My view is that once you get to around wave 20-25 is when the defense mission begins to have a higher difficulty than say the Ceres or Sedna non-defense missions.  So I would say if anything, after having the option for a rare mod reward at the end of wave 25, that we should begin seeing for instance a 15-25% boost to resource quantity drops (instead of 20 alloy, you would see maybe 25 alloy).  Then when you pass wave 50, you might see yet another boost of 25-35% again, followed by possibly 35-45% against after wave 75.

 

This would seem to be more balanced, yet still provide incentive.  Of course, every time you complete sets of 25 waves, there should always be a rare mod offered, maybe even a ranked up mod??  Would be an incredible incentive if you could get yourself a redirection mod that is ranked half way to max by really pushing your limits!

[Gregio]

is this just guesswork or can you prove that?

 

reaching wave 80 should damn well award you with a rare mod 100% of the time since it REALLY takes lots of time to get to wave 80 and a good team.

The numbers are guess work, but the game runs on RNG and that IS how RNG works.

[Aerensiniac]

At Wave 5, it's probably something like this.

Common: 90%

Uncommon: 7.5%

Rare: 2.5%

At Wave 10.

Common 85%

Uncommon 10%

Rare 5%

At Wave 45

Common 70%

Uncommon 20%

Rare 10%

At wave 5 More like:

Common: 95%

Uncommon: 4.999%

Rare: 0.001%

 

Hell it would be nice to have Rare 10% At Wave 45 but looking at the numbers, its still more in the 0.1-1% area which points back at my original point: There completely and utterly no reason to aim for the highest possible wave.

There are no guaranteed rewards and the scaling (IF there is any scaling at all, cause at this point i rather doubt it) it still wont make it profitable in any form or way to go wave 90->100.

Why? Cause i get to wave 10 in lets say 15 minutes with a low rare loot drop chance.

I get to wave 100 in 5 hours and still end up with like what? A few percentages of increased chance? For the same amount of time, i could have ran wave 10 about 20 times.

 

So, i do not think that going higher in the hope of better mod drops has any logical reason (unless a developer wishes to join the conversation and tell us the exact numbers of drop chance scaling).

I also do not really care about it either, because as it has been said, its nothing sure or tangible.

 

I stick to what i have said: To give the players a reason for aiming higher, either fixed cosmetic, mod (or whatever) drops are needed at set amounts of waves, and/or an increase in resource drop chance and amount with each passing wave.

You can disagree with my suggestions, but you cant really disagree with the fact that at present there is no point to aim for like wave 100 simply cause there is no reason for doing so.

[dEEkAy2k9]

why not do it like this.

 

wave 5, 1 reward

wave 10, 2 rewards to choose one from

wave 15, 3 rewards to choose one from

wave...

 

you get it.

 

talking about RNG.

 

who told you that the RNG increases the chances of getting a rare mod the higher you get on your waves? that's still guesswork. give me some prove or don't talk about the RNG like this.

[Gregio]

I wouldn't know, I never went past wave 25, simply because I often get uncommon/rare mods at wave 10/15.
Playing mostly on Eligor with my girlfriend and one/two more friends.

@dEEkAy2k9
It's in the OP's quoted post.

"- Every 5 waves of defense missions will offer you a reward if you decide to exit. The rewards are random each time but tend to offer rarer mods the higher the wave you get to. With the new 7.7 Update, Defense mission rewards have become the main source of Rare Mods."

  Edited May 10, 2013 by Gregio

[Aerensiniac]

why not do it like this.

 

wave 5, 1 reward

wave 10, 2 rewards to choose one from

wave 15, 3 rewards to choose one from

wave...

 

you get it.

 

talking about RNG.

 

who told you that the RNG increases the chances of getting a rare mod the higher you get on your waves? that's still guesswork. give me some prove or don't talk about the RNG like this.

Not necessarily increasing every 5 waves, but the idea is not that bad.

[Mietz]

At wave 5 More like:

Common: 95%

Uncommon: 4.999%

Rare: 0.001%

 

is this just guesswork or can you prove that?

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by Mietz

[Aerensiniac]

Dear Mietz

Either read the entire post, or do not reply on them.

Would you have read what i wrote, you wouldnt have missed the following part:

 

(unless a developer wishes to join the conversation and tell us the exact numbers of drop chance scaling).

I also do not really care about it either, because as it has been said, its nothing sure or tangible.

 

I stick to what i have said: To give the players a reason for aiming higher, either fixed cosmetic, mod (or whatever) drops are needed at set amounts of waves, and/or an increase in resource drop chance and amount with each passing wave.

You can disagree with my suggestions, but you cant really disagree with the fact that at present there is no point to aim for like wave 100 simply cause there is no reason for doing so.

 

As a conclusion:

1. Yes. I too wish for a dev to confirm the actual numbers, which is unlikely to happen

2. No. This has just about nothing to do with the entire thread cause we know for sure (as in not guess work) that in no later waves is the drop chance of rare mods increased to 100% or anywhere near it, thus giving the entire "lets reach wave 100" notion no meaning other than bragging rights.

3. If you wish to reply from here on, then please focus on possible solutions, recommendations, feedback and/or suggestions, cause you are doing nothing productive right now.

 

Thank you sincerely.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[dEEkAy2k9]

 

I wouldn't know, I never went past wave 25, simply because I often get uncommon/rare mods at wave 10/15.

Playing mostly on Eligor with my girlfriend and one/two more friends.

@dEEkAy2k9

It's in the OP's quoted post.

"- Every 5 waves of defense missions will offer you a reward if you decide to exit. The rewards are random each time but tend to offer rarer mods the higher the wave you get to. With the new 7.7 Update, Defense mission rewards have become the main source of Rare Mods."

 

 

 

We can't be 100% sure that the information on the wiki is right. wiki is talking about something that was invented as of patch 7.7.0.

 

Still if i visit this site her

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mission:_Endless_Defense

there's no information about rewards scaling depending on the waves played. so i still think it is not proven that higher mission waves "tend to give" rarer mods.

 

i did not watch their stream but i'd like to know what all those rewards have been from wave 5 till 75 onwards. maybe it was just bad luck at wave 80 and wave 75 had a super nice mod as a reward.

Edited May 10, 2013 by dEEkAy2k9

[Mietz]

3. If you wish to reply from here on, then please focus on possible solutions, recommendations, feedback and/or suggestions, cause you are doing nothing productive right now.

 

Neither are you.

 

You are speculating.

 

If you are not, bring actual numbers (statistics, representative, 100+ runs till wave 85) and we will discuss it.

[Mietz]

Yeah, i have linked a 4 hour long video of speculation. Anything else you wish to add before i put you on my ignore list?

 

Statistics require more than one anecdotal example.

 

I found a rare mod once on Wave 1, now what?

[liavalenth]

Neither are you.

 

You are speculating.

 

If you are not, bring actual numbers (statistics, representative, 100+ runs till wave 85) and we will discuss it.

It is interesting to argue that this is speculation. You are correct, but that does not mean that it is baseless. This hypothosis is very simple,

 

1) There seems to be no noticable difference in reward between completing wave 5, 25, 50, or 80.

2) With no noticable difference there is no noticable incentive to complete more than wave 5.

3) With no noticable incentive it is smarter to only play to wave 5.

 

This is logical, and what I have taken away from this post is not that things need changed, merely that I should always quite at wave 5 until proved otherwise.

 

 

 

Statistics require more than one anecdotal example.

 

I found a rare mod once on Wave 1, now what?

Kind of the point of this entire thing. Personally, I have found 7-8 rare mods after wave 5.

 

Also, I doubt you found a rare mod as the non-existant reward at wave 1. As they do not give a reward for wave 1. You may have found it as a drop, but this topic is not about drops.

Edited May 10, 2013 by liavalenth

[Mietz]

It is interesting to argue that this is speculation. You are correct, but that does not mean that it is baseless. This hypothosis is very simple,

 

1) There seems to be no noticable difference in reward between completing wave 5, 25, 50, or 80.

2) With no noticable difference there is no noticable incentive to complete more than wave 5.

3) With no noticable incentive it is smarter to only play to wave 5.

 

This is logical, and what I have taken away from this post is not that things need changed, merely that I should always quite at wave 5 until proved otherwise.

 

I still don't understand what the bolded part is based on.

 

Because if its you and 10 guys that didn't seem to notice a difference, thats not statistically relevant.

 

Especially since this thread attracts people that "seem to not notice a difference" the whole argument is tainted by confirmation bias and therefore it is not usable in any shape or form to even formulate a hypothesis.

 

So.

 

What is your "feeling" "seeming" and "noticing" based on?

A video?

Your experience.

The experience of 20 guys?

100 guys?

1000 guys?

 

You can't form a hypothesis on the base of your own confirmation bias.

[Gekker]

I don't see what the problem is.

 

Because there are two contradicting goals in defense missions:

1) Getting rare rewards

2) Getting as far as possible

 

...alongside with getting Affinity, mob Mods and Ressources of cause. But you can get that anywhere else as well.

 

When trying to accomplish 1) you do not focus on 2).

And likewise if you try to accomblish 2) you probably skipped about 15 rewards anyway to get to wave 80. So you obviously don't care for the reward.

 

And you obviously are not trying to accomplish 2) with random people.

 

 

I see the irony in getting stupid rewards after 80 waves. But then again if we change the system we will never get rare rewards after wave 5 again. So I say. Leave it the way it is and no one will be mad.

 

EDIT: Oh, and that wave 80 reward we know of was accomplished on Venus. You do not get great rewards for defeating low mobs anyways.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Gekker

[Aerensiniac]

Statistics require more than one anecdotal example.

So do you have any form of evidence which indicates a steep increase or change in drop tendencies after waves 80?

Instead of us, it is you who is speculating that the drop chances are in fact higher than anybody in this topic implies.

Even if i do not count your self contradiction, what you are saying is still completely unrelated to the topic since the reward scaling is not good enough to justify aiming for higher waves.

 

Please quit derailing the tread and inciting a flame war with straw man arguments. Otherwise i will be forced to report you in.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[dEEkAy2k9]

i have been playing lots of defense missions with 2 friends together and most of the time we played to wave 10.

 

out of these runs, there was a huge number of rare mods right after wave 5 (most of them being streamline and such).

we played even to wave 20+ and still, those rewards all seem pretty random and the droprates seemed not to increase based on the number waves.

 

just like banshee blueprint rewards at wave 5. after i built my banshee i could have bult here already two more times although i am only playing to max 10 waves.

[Loswaith]

Ever consider its simply not designed for you to go higher than about 15 or 20 (while every block of 5 waves after that is the same chance), but can if you so desire? (it's nice to have a choice)

 

Prehaps DE decided to not end the defence missions so you can go higher than that for the braging rights.

[Tattutattikawa]

How would a rare mod help? if you don't have everything by now you hardly be able to proceed to even 40+ on Outer Terminus.

 

BUT I agree there should be some more to accomplishment after defeating waves of lvl 200+ mobs.

[dEEkAy2k9]

How would a rare mod help? if you don't have everything by now you hardly be able to proceed to even 40+ on Outer Terminus.

 

BUT I agree there should be some more to accomplishment after defeating waves of lvl 200+ mobs.

 

there are just 4 mods that im missing.

 

those 3 new ones they implemented the other day and pistol multishot. if there was a way to farm those specific mods like go to their faction, do defense, finish wave xyz and choose with a high chance, i'd do that but since there is no proof of increasing drops on increasing waves, i just try my luck on mobile defense.

[Mage187]

there should definitely be an increased chance in quality of the mod choice for each 5 waves completed. I would eventually like to see higher than rare quality too. It'd be fun to have to get maxed out on rares to obtain ultra rare or legendary mods