Im Calling It,we Should See Our Voices Heard,will You Vote For Factional Freedom?

[Morec0]

the tenno were allowed to be divided against each other in supporting iether grineer or corpus in the gradivus dillema

 

same with invasions,

 

so its a moot point to claim there is no reason to doubt the lotus when there is so muc evidence to doubt her with

 

the existence of teshin and what he says about the lotus proves the doubt-ability of the lotus in a way that you morec0,cannot argue with,ever (though you might try)

 

the idea of the lotus being untouchable,always right,always holy is an absolute,and an absolute as a prerequisite of it`s existence requires no opposing truths,ever

 

so thus logically...the lotus`s undoubtable virtue is a lie

 

Well, I gave my answers to the Gradivus and Invasions earlier:

 

 

... Did we divide ourselves in Gradivus or when fighting in invasions? No, we never laid hands against another Tenno, and ultimately we went back to preserve the balance by killing each of those who orchestrated that conflict - Alad and Sargas - together...

 

One side HAD to be the victor in that conflict, but by supporting both the Grineer and Corpus in the fight, by ensuring it went on longer, we weakened both of them considerably. Even though the Grineer were victorious, don't think that the victories the Corpus had didn't do damage to them. That was resources and manpower they loss - both of which cost further resources to replace. Heck, Alad lost that Board's backing BECAUSE the war was consuming so many resources.

 

And doubtability is not the same as being evil, and Teshin is no Tenno. He is the same as the Stalker - a Low Guardian, loyal to the Orokin, who remained awake to wander the system after the fall of the Orokin - only he blames the Lotus herself, not the Tenno, for the Orokin's deaths, hence he is still willing to work with us and train us.

 

Lotus has secrets, Simaris confirms this in The New Strange (which, HORRIBLE name for a quest, all I could think of when reading the name was that one South Park episode and it was weird), but Teshin's also unwilling to reveal the truth to us as well. Truths he knows as well, truths he could use against the Lotus if we were ever to be divided. There's something the universe seems to be protecting the Tenno from - their pasts.

 

The Lotus is not evil, the Lotus is not a villain. Is she a flawless hero? No, but she is the one who guides us through the system, cares for our well-being, and strives to help us protect ourselves as much as she can.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Morec0

[Altey]

i'd join stalker

to kill you all

[GunDownGrace]

Well, I gave my answers to the Gradivus and Invasions earlier:

 

 

 

One side HAD to be the victor in that conflict, but by supporting both the Grineer and Corpus in the fight, by ensuring it went on longer, we weakened both of them considerably. Even though the Grineer were victorious, don't think that the victories the Corpus had didn't do damage to them. That was resources and manpower they loss - both of which cost further resources to replace. Heck, Alad lost that Board's backing BECAUSE the war was consuming so many resources.

 

And doubtability is not the same as being evil, and Teshin is no Tenno. He is the same as the Stalker - a Low Guardian, loyal to the Orokin, who remained awake to wander the system after the fall of the Orokin - only he blames the Lotus herself, not the Tenno, for the Orokin's deaths, hence he is still willing to work with us and train us.

 

Lotus has secrets, Simaris confirms this in The New Strange (which, HORRIBLE name for a quest, all I could think of when reading the name was that one South Park episode and it was weird), but Teshin's also unwilling to reveal the truth to us as well. Truths he knows as well, truths he could use against the Lotus if we were ever to be divided. There's something the universe seems to be protecting the Tenno from - their pasts.

 

The Lotus is not evil, the Lotus is not a villain. Is she a flawless hero? No, but she is the one who guides us through the system, cares for our well-being, and strives to help us protect ourselves as much as she can.

still though...whatever your case it will not be allowed to impinge upon my right,and the right of the other anti lotus tenno to choose who we follow

 

(also,implying a condesending tone towards lower guardians isnt a terribly smart idea considering what your working on behind the scenes morec0)

[Chaosyn]

What people forget is that yes,we're mercenaries...to the Grineer and Corpus.

We are the Systems best defense against Infested and possibly Sentients.

Without supporting the balance that our place CREATES everything dies...

The Grineer clone themselves out of existence...and kill everything else along the way.

The Corpus mine and sell everything in the system...leaving it's corpse behind.

The Infested turn everything into a hivemind and the Sentients likely reduce us to pure data or something..

 

We don't really get to have the choice to leave that behind because that's the End...just The End.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Chaosyn

[GunDownGrace]

-snip-

 

. There is no debating it, there is no denying it, and anything that would pull away away from the Lotus and that union the Tenno have simply wont happen

caught you foiling yourself,that is an absolute...you claim that nothing ever will muddy up the union between the lotus and the tenno,but its already happened with teshin

 

you've caused yourself to lose

[GunDownGrace]

What people forget is that yes,we're mercenaries...to the Grineer and Corpus.

We are the Systems best defense against Infested and possibly Sentients.

Without supporting the balance that our place CREATES everything dies...

The Grineer clone themselves out of existence...and kill everything else along the way.

The Corpus mine and sell everything in the system...leaving it's corpse behind.

The Infested turn everything into a hivemind and the Sentients likely reduce us to pure data or something..

 

We don't really get to have the choice to leave that behind because that's the End...just The End.

agreed...thats why im saying we need more choice in faction that we can play,no more,no less (full faction,not a side gig like the syndicates)

[Morec0]

still though...whatever your case it will not be allowed to impinge upon my right,and the right of the other anti lotus tenno to choose who we follow

 

(also,implying a condesending tone towards lower guardians isnt a terribly smart idea considering what your working on behind the scenes morec0)

 

 

No, but the story can. A faction that provides a secondary view MIGHT be interesting, but it should not, never, EVER, be an Alliace/Horde system. But, given how much of a NIGHTMARE it would be for quests and future events to have to record two whole batches of lines JUST for those one things (not to mention redoing and updating any older lines) it's logistically probably not going to happen - same reason we likely wont ever get a different Cephalon than Ordis.

 

 Didn't mean to imply a condescending tone, was just attempting to state something that seems to line up. Lotus, Teshin, Stalker, I think all of them were the Low Guardians that Stalker talked about in his Codex, the original order to follow the Conclave, the ones who taught us the Old Ways of blade and gun to use against the Sentients.

 

Though, what AM I working on behind the scenes in regards to this? I may not be making the same link that you are. Prizak?

 

caught you foiling yourself,that is an absolute...you claim that nothing ever will muddy up the union between the lotus and the tenno,but its already happened with teshin

 

you've caused yourself to lose

 

Except we still go back to the Lotus, even after dealing with Teshin. He doesn't replace her, he's the same as the Syndicate leaders - a secondary figure to the centerpoint.

 

He provides a different view, but the Tenno seem to have yet to be swayed away from her by it - heck, I almost think that Teshin more concerned with getting the Tenno combat-ready for the Sentients than trying to pry them away from her.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

There is no balance without light,there is no balance without evil,both must be as one in equal amounts within the same person,and outside the person as well

 

this is the "yin and yang"..it is logical (albeit in a metaphysical context)

 

yet us,as tenno,as players,as human beings,are not allowed the most basic of freedoms,the freedom of will,the freedom to control our own fates,and choose whether we follow darkness,or light,or somewhere inbetween

 

we should no longer be denied this universal human right here in warframe

 

Simaris and teshin were a step in the right direction...but in the end its not enough,because at the end of the day you are forced,no matter your feeling or thoughts,to follow the lotus...you free to do as she tells you,free to live as she wants

 

i say no longer,and with that said,i offer a poll to cast your vote,this is the time tenno,let our voices be heard

 

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll277212x45954B53-10

 

and to further re-iterate..this would in no way harm those who choose of there own free will to follow the lotus still,this offers a choice

 

Nope. Good and evil are subjective and forcing boring old tropes about how we should view moral values is not necessary. When you distill the game down it already has enough romantic adventure cliches in it. But, that distant inscrutable and alien allure is the one thing that keeps Warframe apart from so many other games and media in general. DE has said we can trust the Lotus, she represents the base neutral organization that is the Tenno. Teshin, despite his antagonism doesn't really change this. 

The tenno follow the Tenno's agenda under the leadership of the Lotus. The Tenno are free to explore those goals under through the various factions, but this doesn't preclude them from their overriding goal as Tenno. For those who wan't to side with the Corpus or Grineer. This alliances are mercenary and temporary. Because the in-game universe is big and diverse and complicated/gray and allows for these kinds of relationships. Because things aren't black and white or good and evil.

[GunDownGrace]

No, but the story can. A faction that provides a secondary view MIGHT be interesting, but it should not, never, EVER, be an Alliace/Horde system. But, given how much of a NIGHTMARE it would be for quests and future events to have to record two whole batches of lines JUST for those one things (not to mention redoing and updating any older lines) it's logistically probably not going to happen - same reason we likely wont ever get a different Cephalon than Ordis.

 

 Didn't mean to imply a condescending tone, was just attempting to state something that seems to line up. Lotus, Teshin, Stalker, I think all of them were the Low Guardians that Stalker talked about in his Codex, the original order to follow the Conclave, the ones who taught us the Old Ways of blade and gun to use against the Sentients.

 

Though, what AM I working on behind the scenes in regards to this? I may not be making the same link that you are. Prizak?

 

 

Except we still go back to the Lotus, even after dealing with Teshin. He doesn't replace her, he's the same as the Syndicate leaders - a secondary figure to the centerpoint.

 

He provides a different view, but the Tenno seem to have yet to be swayed away from her by it - heck, I almost think that Teshin more concerned with getting the Tenno combat-ready for the Sentients than trying to pry them away from her.

you dont seem to get it do you

 

an absolute as a prerequisite of its existence requires no opposing truths of any form

 

what teshin says is canon,regardless of what you think,at all

 

the fact of the matter remains the teshin hasnt been in existence very long,but his message is clear "the lotus lied" "the lotus seduced the tenno"

 

that implys malice rather directly

 

and because the direct implication of what those words mean in english is stronger than a flimsy attempt to parse meaning to preserve your infatuation with the lotus,i have the leading edge in the theories market,whereas you dont

 

and what teshin ends up doing in the future when he is fleshed out in about as unpredictable as the future is

 

so,ill pose you a question your likely unprepared to deal with

 

im willing to roll the dice,are you?

 

if i lose the dice roll...then nothing changes,literally ill be doing the same stuff,with the same difficultys

 

however,if you lose the dice roll,your position is permanently damaged,and i gain territory

 

you may play this dice roll if you wish,,but knowing that you cant harm my position in the argument and the only thing that can happen is either nothing or you lose,and lose badly,id advise you to halt

[GunDownGrace]

Nope. Good and evil are subjective and forcing boring old tropes about how we should view moral values is not necessary. When you distill the game down it already has enough romantic adventure cliches in it. But, that distant inscrutable and alien allure is the one thing that keeps Warframe apart from so many other games and media in general. DE has said we can trust the Lotus, she represents the base neutral organization that is the Tenno. Teshin, despite his antagonism doesn't really change this. 

The tenno follow the Tenno's agenda under the leadership of the Lotus. The Tenno are free to explore those goals under through the various factions, but this doesn't preclude them from their overriding goal as Tenno. For those who wan't to side with the Corpus or Grineer. This alliances are mercenary and temporary. Because the in-game universe is big and diverse and complicated/gray and allows for these kinds of relationships. Because things aren't black and white or good and evil.

indeed...but the being a lotus loyalist is in itself a trope ironically enough

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine

[GunDownGrace]

this quote i beleive is relevant to why we need another choice besides the lotus,and why lotus zealot followers are dangerous

 

Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.

Edited March 27, 2015 by GunDownGrace

[Morec0]

you dont seem to get it do you

 

an absolute as a prerequisite of its existence requires no opposing truths of any form

 

what teshin says is canon,regardless of what you think,at all

 

the fact of the matter remains the teshin hasnt been in existence very long,but his message is clear "the lotus lied" "the lotus seduced the tenno"

 

that implys malice rather directly

 

and because the direct implication of what those words mean in english is stronger than a flimsy attempt to parse meaning to preserve your infatuation with the lotus,i have the leading edge in the theories market,whereas you dont

 

and what teshin ends up doing in the future when he is fleshed out in about as unpredictable as the future is

 

so,ill pose you a question your likely unprepared to deal with

 

im willing to roll the dice,are you?

 

if i lose the dice roll...then nothing changes,literally ill be doing the same stuff,with the same difficultys

 

however,if you lose the dice roll,your position is permanently damaged,and i gain territory

 

you may play this dice roll if you wish,,but knowing that you cant harm my position in the argument and the only thing that can happen is either nothing or you lose,and lose badly,id advise you to halt

 

That's his point of view on the matter, his perspective. To the Stalker the point of view is "we betrayed the Tenno, we killed them, I need to kill them all". Teshin is "the Lotus tricked the Tenno, tricked them into betraying the Orokin, I need to bring them back to the true way of the conclave".

 

His word is not abject fact either, the only abject fact we have thus far is we did what we did.

 

The idea that Lotus' "seduction" of the Tenno as being malicious, though, implies the Orokin were completely benevolent. While I'm sure they weren't 100% evil, the fact remains they were making creatures like Lephantis (heck, the whole of the Technocyte) and experimenting on children (the Zariman) who they'd later turn into weapons - these are typically not good things. This would make Lotus' "seduction" of the Tenno an act to free them from the evil tyrants controlling them and helping them overthrow said tyrants.

 

I am more than willing to say that things may change, something may be revealed. The ground may change, but at this juncture I don't see the ground changing how you see it changing. I don't see the Lotus being revealed to have been using the Tenno for her own selfish goals, I don't see our killing the Orokin to have been something that wasn't warranted.

 

I'll roll the dice, I'll wait and see what the future of Warframe's story brings, and I will GLADLY change my views on the Lotus if something that warrants such a change comes about - it's happened before, I used to believe the poly-Tenno theory, after all. Post-Limbo Theorem, though? Not so much.

[Yazyflame]

"Steve stole my hat again." owo

[GunDownGrace]

That's his point of view on the matter, his perspective. To the Stalker the point of view is "we betrayed the Tenno, we killed them, I need to kill them all". Teshin is "the Lotus tricked the Tenno, tricked them into betraying the Orokin, I need to bring them back to the true way of the conclave".

 

His word is not abject fact either, the only abject fact we have thus far is we did what we did.

 

The idea that Lotus' "seduction" of the Tenno as being malicious, though, implies the Orokin were completely benevolent. While I'm sure they weren't 100% evil, the fact remains they were making creatures like Lephantis (heck, the whole of the Technocyte) and experimenting on children (the Zariman) who they'd later turn into weapons - these are typically not good things. This would make Lotus' "seduction" of the Tenno an act to free them from the evil tyrants controlling them and helping them overthrow said tyrants.

 

I am more than willing to say that things may change, something may be revealed. The ground may change, but at this juncture I don't see the ground changing how you see it changing. I don't see the Lotus being revealed to have been using the Tenno for her own selfish goals, I don't see our killing the Orokin to have been something that wasn't warranted.

 

I'll roll the dice, I'll wait and see what the future of Warframe's story brings, and I will GLADLY change my views on the Lotus if something that warrants such a change comes about - it's happened before, I used to believe the poly-Tenno theory, after all. Post-Limbo Theorem, though? Not so much.

thats all i ask

 

if youll stay in your philosophical corner ill stay in mine

 

you should read my orokin tomb ship fanfic sometime...it paints the orokin in a severely bad light

 

and also,why did you stop beleiving the poly tenno theory after limbo?

[Mikaeln]

I vote NO. The Lotus, has helped 99.9999999999999% of us without anything in return. She has protected us and guides us and gives gifts here and then. I am alive thanks to her. I will never betray her. 

 

Long Live The Lotus!!! <3 <3 <3

[WERElektro]

Yes ,

because of the following:

DARVOOOOOOOO!!!

On a more serious note:

Yes, I think we should be allowed to take sites. Grineer, Lotus or Corpus.

It would make the game and the lore far more interesting.

Edited March 27, 2015 by WEREsandrock

[GunDownGrace]

I vote NO. The Lotus, has helped 99.9999999999999% of us without anything in return. She has protected us and guides us and gives gifts here and then. I am alive thanks to her. I will never betray her. 

 

Long Live The Lotus!!! <3 <3 <3

well i dont agree with you but i respect your honesty and strictly free will based choice

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

indeed...but the being a lotus loyalist is in itself a trope ironically enough

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LotusEaterMachine

Fair enough, but tvtropes.com just goes to show that there is nothing new under the sun. What is newer is defying expectation and looking at things with a new perspective. Something DE has done in visual aesthetic, but has yet to reveal how far they are willing to go in story and narrative. I have mentioned many times before that I wish Warframe could continue to be as bold as its visual design suggest, but that it is risky to do so. Look at how much tip toeing DE has to do when it comes to what the Tenno are. I can't tell you how many times I have talked to people or read people saying they can't stand the idea of a character that changes sex to become different Warframes. Never mind that the Tenno are being altered by unfathomable energies and live in a time separated from us my millennia, and manifest as ideas of warrior perfection. Gender bending is just too taboo for millions of boring people. And so, DE will either never truly answer that question, they will go the safe and boring status quo route, and define them as separate and traditional gender roles.

 

It is issue like that I find more interesting than the desire to join up with faction that I read into something more identifiable and appealing. Let the story manifest when the devs are ready and we will see.

[Morec0]

and also,why did you stop beleiving the poly tenno theory after limbo?

 

Ordis' matter-of-fact line: "... Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution."

 

There's really no way to deny it anymore, we ARE a single Tenno that switches between frames. And this is still said AFTER the 15.5 update that "removed unnecessary wording from Limbo Theorem quest dialogue", which came AFTER the quote from Steve that was misconstrued to say "this was a fourth-wall break" but actually was saying the exact opposite: "this was NOT a fourth-wall break, we don't like to do fourth-wall breaks".

 

I still believe the Tenno have frames that they are more linked to than others, and thus are more likely to remain in THOSE frames, most of the time, and without doubt there were frames that had original hosts, but as far as in-game goes and as far as the story is concerned, we're a singular Tenno switching between multiple frames as we will.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

Ordis' matter-of-fact line: "... Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution."

 

There's really no way to deny it anymore, we ARE a single Tenno that switches between frames. And this is still said AFTER the 15.5 update that "removed unnecessary wording from Limbo Theorem quest dialogue", which came AFTER the quote from Steve that was misconstrued to say "this was a fourth-wall break" but actually was saying the exact opposite: "this was NOT a fourth-wall break, we don't like to do fourth-wall breaks".

 

I still believe the Tenno have frames that they are more linked to than others, and thus are more likely to remain in THOSE frames, most of the time, and without doubt there were frames that had original hosts, but as far as in-game goes and as far as the story is concerned, we're a singular Tenno switching between multiple frames as we will.

I want to agree with this. I do think more evidence points to this. I am just worried that DE feels the pressure from fans that can't handle it, so they will always keep it vague or reverse course.

[GunDownGrace]

Fair enough, but tvtropes.com just goes to show that there is nothing new under the sun. What is newer is defying expectation and looking at things with a new perspective. Something DE has done in visual aesthetic, but has yet to reveal how far they are willing to go in story and narrative. I have mentioned many times before that I wish Warframe could continue to be as bold as its visual design suggest, but that it is risky to do so. Look at how much tip toeing DE has to do when it comes to what the Tenno are. I can't tell you how many times I have talked to people or read people saying they can't stand the idea of a character that changes sex to become different Warframes. Never mind that the Tenno are being altered by unfathomable energies and live in a time separated from us my millennia, and manifest as ideas of warrior perfection. Gender bending is just too taboo for millions of boring people. And so, DE will either never truly answer that question, they will go the safe and boring status quo route, and define them as separate and traditional gender roles.

 

It is issue like that I find more interesting than the desire to join up with faction that I read into something more identifiable and appealing. Let the story manifest when the devs are ready and we will see.

home is where the heart is,but the stars are made of latinum

 

i like this

[Chaosyn]

Greedy ferengi....

[JayGideon1]

I think this is a cool debate, despite what you believe the Tenno should do, it is definitely a cool debate. and while i personally support the Lotus as our leader, i cant help but wonder, if we turned on our Orokin masters, will we always stay so loyal to the Lotus? though she does seem to be guiding us in more of a benevolent path and obviously cares for the Tenno 

[Morec0]

I want to agree with this. I do think more evidence points to this. I am just worried that DE feels the pressure from fans that can't handle it, so they will always keep it vague or reverse course.

 

I can understand that worry, I can see it everywhere myself. I don't see why it's a big deal.

 

It kinda seems childish to me. Heck, when I was a kid I remember REFUSING to play a female character in Kotor 2... THEN I got Jedi Knight Jedi Academy, saw some of the Twi'lek female skins and... well, I was 13. Turns out, voice acting changed (for some reason I think that surprised me), and I started to wonder if other things changed in other games when you played a female character...

 

Turns out, there were entire different dialogue options in Kotor 2 for doing so! Including one of my favorite Star Wars moments to date: https://youtu.be/hcP7MAuSOSQ?t=15s

 

After that, I did runs as both genders, JUST to see the differences.

 

And I came to this game directly from LoL as well, where some of my favorite characters are Jinx and Morganas as well as Viktor and Yorick, so the idea of being able to switch between characters of different genders as a singular character (before they removed the IoW, for god-knows-what reason) wasn't anything new... Admitidly that's a SOMEWHAT different principle, but it provides the groundwork for how I see the Tenno viewing their Warframe switching: not a big deal in any way.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Morec0

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I can understand that worry, I can see it everywhere myself. I don't see why it's a big deal.

 

It kinda seems childish to me. Heck, when I was a kid I remember REFUSING to play a female character in Kotor 2... THEN I got Jedi Knight Jedi Academy, saw some of the Twi'lek female skins and... well, I was 13. Turns out, voice acting changed (for some reason I think that surprised me), and I started to wonder if other things changed in other games when you played a female character...

 

Turns out, there were entire different dialogue options in Kotor 2 for doing so! Including one of my favorite Star Wars moments to date: https://youtu.be/hcP7MAuSOSQ?t=15s

 

After that, I did runs as both genders, JUST to see the differences.

 

And I came to this game directly from LoL as well, where some of my favorite characters are Jinx and Morganas as well as Viktor and Yorick, so the idea of being able to switch between characters of different genders as a singular character (before they removed the IoW, for god-knows-what reason) wasn't anything new... Admitidly that's a SOMEWHAT different principle, but it provides the groundwork for how I see the Tenno viewing their Warframe switching: not a big deal in any way.

 

 

Absolutely. Sadly, many people are wrapped up in social roles and and benefit from gender models. Mostly men have a weak sense of self without a strong macho personification and can't handle femininity, or anything construed as such. For some woman, understandably, it can be seen as a continued assault of marginalization of their gender. The list of issue that people have goes on and on. But it usually boils down to privilege and and power.