Rifle Balance Disparity

[Zhonatta]

Just curious what the current plans are for balancing the current weapon?

 

Its kinda odd when your Pistols do more DPS then your assault rifles and your assault rifles do more DPS then your Heavy machine guns?

[MetalGerbil]

they are all balanced for situational usefulness, not DPS.

 

if you have been looking at some of the DPS charts people have made (man i hate that) yeah you are going to get the wrong impression.

 

there are way too many factors to any of the weps in the game and if ANYBODY tells you that one is best or better without giving you the situation they excel at and the situations where they dont, they have no idea what they are talking about.

[Zhonatta]

they are all balanced for situational usefulness, not DPS.

 

if you have been looking at some of the DPS charts people have made (man i hate that) yeah you are going to get the wrong impression.

 

there are way too many factors to any of the weps in the game and if ANYBODY tells you that one is best or better without giving you the situation they excel at and the situations where they dont, they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

Pre-tale what situation where each of these weapons pulls ahead of either of the other 2.

 

Gorgon

 

Boltor

 

Akbolto

[SirMelf]

i am with the OP here, some weapons are very good in many different situations, some are exceptional under certain circumstances (eg snipetron vs grineer) but  some are neither imho.

[Zhonatta]

Just saying I don't see any significant circumstance where for example the Gorgon will out shine 2 weapons with complete armor ignore. They basically have an additional 0-75% damage mod on them depending on the target over the Gorgon.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Zhonatta

[Namacyst]

Weapons are fine.. you just use them wrong

 

/sarcasm off

[MoonicusMaximus]

Pre-tale what situation where each of these weapons pulls ahead of either of the other 2.

 

Gorgon

 

Boltor

 

Akbolto

 

Gorgon: Extremely tanky enemies like bosses and heavy units. Gorgon short-term DPS is bad because of wind-up, however its long-term sustained DPS is the highest in the game due to its magazine size and inherently high damage per shot. The Boltor cannot sustain such high DPS over time due to a smaller magazine size and smaller damage despite inherent AP. Same as Akbolto.

 

Boltor: Better against units with armor. A Gorgon with its shaky accuracy at longer ranges means most of the damage done is potentially negated by armor, which bolt weapons accelerate at performing against. The Akbolto works in a similar fashion but has a smaller magazine and is not automatic, and also has a smaller ammo pool.

 

Akbolto: I'm going to assume you mean the dual pistols, despite the fact that your title leads to a comparison of rifles, not rifles and pistols. It's the same benefits of innate armor pierce as the Boltor but with smaller magazine, higher accuracy, slightly larger damage, no automatic fire and smaller ammo pool. It outperforms the Gorgon against heavily armored enemies at medium range in terms of short-term DPS, which is better for weaker enemies like Lancers or Chargers.

Edited May 14, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Vanhline]

Gorgon: Extremely tanky enemies like bosses and heavy units. Gorgon short-term DPS is bad because of wind-up, however its long-term sustained DPS is the highest in the game due to its magazine size and inherently high damage per shot. The Boltor cannot sustain such high DPS over time due to a smaller magazine size and smaller damage despite inherent AP. Same as Akbolto.

 

Boltor: Better against units with armor. A Gorgon with its shaky accuracy at longer ranges means most of the damage done is potentially negated by armor, which bolt weapons accelerate at performing against. The Akbolto works in a similar fashion but has a smaller magazine and is not automatic, and also has a smaller ammo pool.

 

Akbolto: I'm going to assume you mean the dual pistols, despite the fact that your title leads to a comparison of rifles, not rifles and pistols. It's the same benefits of innate armor pierce as the Boltor but with smaller magazine, higher accuracy, slightly larger damage, no automatic fire and smaller ammo pool. It outperforms the Gorgon against heavily armored enemies at medium range in terms of short-term DPS, which is better for weaker enemies like Lancers or Chargers.

 

so this is all obviously based on your handle of things and how you feel they preform and not any actual math.

 

so let me clarify it for you and any other readers who come along.

 

first of all, rate of fire, damage per shot, and reload times are the only factors in an equation for the damage "output" on a weapon. it being semi-auto or full auto doesn't have anything at all to do with DPS, the only thing that will effect is "click and hold" or " CLICK'CLICK'CLICK'CLICK'CLICK" 

 

next, ammo in your mag is also not a factor in of itself. when your are talking about ammo in your mag effecting dps it is a ammo VS rate of fire VS reload speed equation, if your gun does 10,000 damage per shot. a one round magazine, and a ten second reload its still putting out a 1000 DPS.

 

accuracy is a factor but not when comparing "like" weapons. in a situation where you are using one of these weapons listed above, your other main/offhand weapon should be more focused on accuracy rather then raw damage output.

 

now, when we stop and look at the stats of the gorgon vs the boltor it should be obvious that the gorgon is better but after we go in and do the math based on use rather then "stats" it tells a vary different story. 

 

in our testing of the gorgon, not having any natural armor pen could do as low as 6 dmg per shot (all these tests are done on naked weapons.) and about 8 seconds to empty its entire payload of 90 rounds. so 6x90 for total damage of the magazine and you divide by 8 seconds for the damage done on a per second basis witch comes to 67.5 DPS. but can do up to 225 dps on low armor targets.

 

now the boltor, 18x60/6.8=158.8 VS all targets regardless of armor.

 

so what we see above is that in some situations against some mobs the gorgon might be better, but wait! there's more!

 

the gorgons rate of fire starts off slow getting faster as you hold the trigger now, starting in at a whopping 7 rounds per second. meaning against an armored target with its low dmg output it only did 42 DMG in the first second, getting progressively stronger. so in missions fighting in a group where an enemy dies in 3 seconds because of multiple lanes of fire, congratz, you did 50 DPS.

 

now lets factor reload speed into the equation.

 

boltor   2.5 (38%)

gorgon 4.2 (52.5%)

 

so we're going to do an equation for firing efficiency based on time spent firing VS time spent reloading. so as seen above the boltor spends 38% of its time reloading where as the gorgon spends 52% of its time reloading. so if we account this time spent doing no dmg into their DPS it will drop correspondingly.

 

final DPS

 

boltor: 98.45

gorgon: 32.06-106.8 

 

so if you are fighting NOTHING but low armor targets all day and all at close range so you dont loose any bullets in the wind up then, wish be granted the gorgon is better. however, there are only a few low armor targets that that high end range DPS will apply to and most of the time your DPS will actually reflect the 32-60 range. where as the boltor will be at 98 on everything.

 

now the sad part, the akbolto is a more powerful weapon then both of them

 

base dmg of 25 with full armor ignore.

higher rate of fire, 10(you may need to click 10 times per second to pull it off but it is faster)

lower mag 30, with same reload of 2.5.

 

so 25*30/2.5=300DPS and after you factor reload into its dps it becomes 150, higher then both the boltor or the gorgon. another thing worth mentioning that cant be quantified because it happens at random is both the akbolto and the boltor can do dmg through their target on occasion witch will cause DPS to raise. also both the akbolto and the boltor have polarity slots allowing for more efficient damage per point spent ratio that would come into effect on non-naked testing. 

 

 

final tally.

 

 

boltor: 98.45

gorgon: 32.06-106.8 

akbolto: 150, also the split chamber here is 120 not 90, and the straight damage is 220 not 165. would also come into play in non-naked testing.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Vanhline

[Zhonatta]

Technical Mumbo Jumbo.

 

It's dead Jim.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Zhonatta

[Dasmir]

Just curious what the current plans are for balancing the current weapon?

 

Its kinda odd when your Pistols do more DPS then your assault rifles and your assault rifles do more DPS then your Heavy machine guns?

 

Hahaha before the rifle buff update the only weapons was you sidearm or a shotgun and the only viable combo was lex/Hek (somepeople still thinking this)

 

give times to the devs becouse i dont wanna see more nerfs to make another weapons "balanced",,

[gaurdianaq]

so this is all obviously based on your handle of things and how you feel they preform and not any actual math.

 

so let me clarify it for you and any other readers who come along.

 

first of all, rate of fire, damage per shot, and reload times are the only factors in an equation for the damage "output" on a weapon. it being semi-auto or full auto doesn't have anything at all to do with DPS, the only thing that will effect is "click and hold" or " CLICK'CLICK'CLICK'CLICK'CLICK" 

 

next, ammo in your mag is also not a factor in of itself. when your are talking about ammo in your mag effecting dps it is a ammo VS rate of fire VS reload speed equation, if your gun does 10,000 damage per shot. a one round magazine, and a ten second reload its still putting out a 1000 DPS.

 

accuracy is a factor but not when comparing "like" weapons. in a situation where you are using one of these weapons listed above, your other main/offhand weapon should be more focused on accuracy rather then raw damage output.

 

now, when we stop and look at the stats of the gorgon vs the boltor it should be obvious that the gorgon is better but after we go in and do the math based on use rather then "stats" it tells a vary different story. 

 

in our testing of the gorgon, not having any natural armor pen could do as low as 6 dmg per shot (all these tests are done on naked weapons.) and about 8 seconds to empty its entire payload of 90 rounds. so 6x90 for total damage of the magazine and you divide by 8 seconds for the damage done on a per second basis witch comes to 67.5 DPS. but can do up to 225 dps on low armor targets.

 

now the boltor, 18x60/6.8=158.8 VS all targets regardless of armor.

 

so what we see above is that in some situations against some mobs the gorgon might be better, but wait! there's more!

 

the gorgons rate of fire starts off slow getting faster as you hold the trigger now, starting in at a whopping 7 rounds per second. meaning against an armored target with its low dmg output it only did 42 DMG in the first second, getting progressively stronger. so in missions fighting in a group where an enemy dies in 3 seconds because of multiple lanes of fire, congratz, you did 50 DPS.

 

now lets factor reload speed into the equation.

 

boltor   2.5 (38%)

gorgon 4.2 (52.5%)

 

so we're going to do an equation for firing efficiency based on time spent firing VS time spent reloading. so as seen above the boltor spends 38% of its time reloading where as the gorgon spends 52% of its time reloading. so if we account this time spent doing no dmg into their DPS it will drop correspondingly.

 

final DPS

 

boltor: 98.45

gorgon: 32.06-106.8 

 

so if you are fighting NOTHING but low armor targets all day and all at close range so you dont loose any bullets in the wind up then, wish be granted the gorgon is better. however, there are only a few low armor targets that that high end range DPS will apply to and most of the time your DPS will actually reflect the 32-60 range. where as the boltor will be at 98 on everything.

 

now the sad part, the akbolto is a more powerful weapon then both of them

 

base dmg of 25 with full armor ignore.

higher rate of fire, 10(you may need to click 10 times per second to pull it off but it is faster)

lower mag 30, with same reload of 2.5.

 

so 25*30/2.5=300DPS and after you factor reload into its dps it becomes 150, higher then both the boltor or the gorgon. another thing worth mentioning that cant be quantified because it happens at random is both the akbolto and the boltor can do dmg through their target on occasion witch will cause DPS to raise. also both the akbolto and the boltor have polarity slots allowing for more efficient damage per point spent ratio that would come into effect on non-naked testing. 

 

 

final tally.

 

 

boltor: 98.45

gorgon: 32.06-106.8 

akbolto: 150, also the split chamber here is 120 not 90, and the straight damage is 220 not 165. would also come into play in non-naked testing.

I'd imagine though that the gorgon would probably be better in a situation where the boss can regenerate his entire shield in the time it takes to reload, therefor having the larger clip would allow to get in some damage before reloading was necessary (I'm referencing solo play that is)

[Skoll85]

snip

There's a bit of problem with the akboltos calculation. You stated that the firerate is ten times per second, which corresponds to 10 clicks per second. Without using macros or rebinding fire to your scroll wheel (which the guns simply aren't going to be balanced around), it is more or less impossible for the average player to fire 10 times in a second. Using on online tool (something you can easily find through Google) my clicks per second were around 7. This would gradually decline to about 6.5 or so after a few seconds. Assuming my clicks per second is similar to the average Warframe player this would significantly lower the peak and sustainable dps of the weapon. 

 

Not going to say anything on the Gorgon/Boltor comparison, I think it is the consensus of most players that the Gorgon is worse than the Boltor in most situations.

[Vanhline]

I'd imagine though that the gorgon would probably be better in a situation where the boss can regenerate his entire shield in the time it takes to reload, therefor having the larger clip would allow to get in some damage before reloading was necessary (I'm referencing solo play that is)

it is possible that it might be better in a situation like that, however keep in mind that in a boss fight they are likely going to be well armored in and put you at the lower end of that 32 dps and now, even with your big clip your not doing much dmg and have an even longer reload time.

[TennoSkoom]

Pre-tale what situation where each of these weapons pulls ahead of either of the other 2.

 

Gorgon

 

Boltor

 

Akbolto

 

Gorgon is acceptable for regular usage, when max'd and properly modded it only takes 2-3 shots to take down a target on most non-defense run difficulties. Slow bursting will increase your accuracy over range and allow you to be more ammo efficient. Contrary to popular belief this weapon is effective at range (so long as you know how to aim) as well as close up. The gorgon really shines over the rest when taking on heavily armored or high-health bosses like the jackal, hyena, ambulas, kril, etc.

 

Boltor is your typical bread-and-butter assault rifle. It's good for all factions but really shines against the granieer and infested ancients, especially when you mod it accordingly, While it's not as effective as the gorgon against heavy bosses like hyena, jackal, etc. it is better than the gorgon at crowd control and is generally better for non-boss-run missions than the gorgon. It's not far off from the akboltos in terms of effectiveness in dealing with large groups. As a note It is possible to stunlock some bosses with this weapon whereas it's difficult if not impossible to do so with the akboltos and gorgon.

 

Akbolto outshines the boltor in terms of damage output but can get tiring to use vs hefty bosses or massive groups, Make no mistake, it's still more damaging than the boltor on a per shot basis- and like the boltor is excellent for all enemy types and is good for most situations where high accuracy isn't needed. Taking out a camera at range may take a couple shots due to the projectiles trajectory variance- where the gorgon and boltor are a little better but suffer the same problem when larger range is introduced. Again, the gorgon outperforms these on heavy bosses while these outperform the gorgon for crowd control and outperform the boltor in sheer damage output.

 

All three of the above are best balanced with a highly accurate weapon, i like running a lex with the gorgon or boltor, and a latron with the akboltos. Ideally I like one weapon for high point damage and accuracy, and the other for crowd control while reserving my melee for anything that gets too close.(or infested in general) Of course, while you're leveling weapons you'll probably wind up emphasizing the one you want to level and adapting your playstyle accordingly. Some people like to hang back and pick things off safely as they progress. My style varies according to situation- but generally i like to play very aggressively, with that in mind your playstyle will also likely affect your choice in weaponry.

 

Running akboltos with a boltor or gorgon is fine, but you may find cameras and longshots to be a bit troublesome without a more accurate weapon to balance out these high output crowd control weapons.

 

Again, your playstyle and thus the weapons you find most effective my vary.

 

Hope this helps. =)

Edited May 15, 2013 by AnalogAnomaly

[Vanhline]

There's a bit of problem with the akboltos calculation. You stated that the firerate is ten times per second, which corresponds to 10 clicks per second. Without using macros or rebinding fire to your scroll wheel (which the guns simply aren't going to be balanced around), it is more or less impossible for the average player to fire 10 times in a second. Using on online tool (something you can easily find through Google) my clicks per second were around 7. This would gradually decline to about 6.5 or so after a few seconds. Assuming my clicks per second is similar to the average Warframe player this would significantly lower the peak and sustainable dps of the weapon. 

 

Not going to say anything on the Gorgon/Boltor comparison, I think it is the consensus of most players that the Gorgon is worse than the Boltor in most situations.

well that math is sound but as i said above it would require the person to be able to handle the 10 clicks per second. 

i personally was able to hit 10 without a problem but that may not be the case for everyone, as my room mate behind me was only able to hit 8 as well.

you for example were able to hit 7 per sec in bursts. this would put you at around a dps of 90-95 so about on par with the boltor but with more effort required to do so, this may make the boltor a better choice for you but the basis of what im talking about is the two of them VS th gorgon and it sounds like we are both on the same page there.

[Vanhline]

allot of good stuff

 

well said sir.

[Zhonatta]

Gorgon is acceptable for regular usage, when max'd and properly modded it only takes 2-3 shots to take down a target on most non-defense run difficulties. Slow bursting will increase your accuracy over range and allow you to be more ammo efficient. Contrary to popular belief this weapon is effective at range (so long as you know how to aim) as well as close up. The gorgon really shines over the rest when taking on heavily armored or high-health bosses like the jackal, hyena, ambulas, kril, etc.

 

The problem is the that Gorgon doesn't really shine when taking on Armored anything and most of time High Health/Heavily Armored coincide. Never mind the fact both the Boltors/Akboltos have polarity slots giving them more affective points to work with. Simply put if what you are shooting has any kind of armor resistance then you would be better off with the Boltor/Akboltos and the fact of the matter is mostly everything in the game does especially the bosses.

 

Complete armor ignore is a broken game mechanic as it stands.

 

I would like to see the Gorgon with some significant Puncture ability and I'm not talking .6 of a meter. If the gun could shoot through multiple targets in a zerg and did more equivalent damage then it would actually fulfill a function and be viable.

 

Side Note: I was only able to pull a 9.3 click per sec on adverage..

Edited May 15, 2013 by Zhonatta

[Emotitron]

Just curious what the current plans are for balancing the current weapon?

 

Its kinda odd when your Pistols do more DPS then your assault rifles and your assault rifles do more DPS then your Heavy machine guns?

 

Pistols in this games are not secondaries, they are alternates. They aren't meant to be weaker, or longer ranged. They cost the same to buy, and require the same quantity of mod fusing to boost. You can just as easily use your rifle slot for a close range shotgun and your pistol slot for a sniping weapon like the Lex. I don't know if they have specifically ever stated this, but it is obvious from the weapon design that rifles/pistol slots are designed to be equally as useful. Which makes sense. Why spend that much time building up a secondary weapon that only gets used in emergencies. The idea seems to always give players 3 weapon choices, each with its own function.

There are some guns that get used more than others, and I suspect they will get revisted in the future.

When looking at things like the Gorgon keep in mind it tears through ammo at a brutal rate and is terrible at range - making it mostly a good vs infested and bosses and mediocre vs everything else.

 

The various sniping options (snipetron/latron/lex) also have their own strengths/weaknesses beyond basic dps stats. In some runs the Snipetron and Paris are overkill, and will eat through harder to find sniper ammo. It also won't offer the crowd control funtion that the latron can. With Latron it may take a couple shots to kill, but that first shot will stun/freeze some mobs allowing you to tag a bunch of distant targets to get them to stop shooting and stand still. The Lex lets you still snipe with your pistol while using some other short range gun in like the gorgon or hex.

 

I would let the end game develop before attempting to aggressively try to 'balance' weapons. The only reason to balance something is if it is becoming too popular or too neglected.

 

ALL of the guns once modded up can take down all of the bosses, so there is no content in the game out of their reach. The only exception is endless waves, but they create a whole other set of unique problems (mainly ammo efficiency problems since mobs only drop one ammo when they die, but can require multiple ammo drops worth of rounds to kill).

Edited May 15, 2013 by Emotitron

[Argoms]

On a related note- DE does not disallow usage of macros, so it's reasonable to use the absolute maximum rate of fire of a semi-auto when calculating dps.

[Amistyrja]

RIP Burston.

[PlebbyMilliner]

Different guns for different situations. Gorgon is good for up close mowing down targets.

 

The Boltor has reasonable accuracy, but a long reload time and the bolts move slow so you need to lead targets, which negates some of the gains in accuracy. I usually go for medium range headshots to try to being the damage back in line.

 

Different guns have different mod polarity. The Boltor has one that so faar I've only found Cryo rounds for ("delta" type polarity). So it suffers in other areas.

[MJ12]

Pistols in this games are not secondaries, they are alternates. They aren't meant to be weaker, or longer ranged. They cost the same to buy, and require the same quantity of mod fusing to boost. You can just as easily use your rifle slot for a close range shotgun and your pistol slot for a sniping weapon like the Lex. I don't know if they have specifically ever stated this, but it is obvious from the weapon design that rifles/pistol slots are designed to be equally as useful. Which makes sense. Why spend that much time building up a secondary weapon that only gets used in emergencies. The idea seems to always give players 3 weapon choices, each with its own function.

 

Okay, so why do we have a dedicated pistol slot instead of being able to wield two long-guns then? And why does carrying the Datamass disable the use of your long-gun?

 

It seems to me that pistols should be weaker and the fact that they aren't is actually a balance problem. The especially funny thing is that the rifle mods are generally the weakest ones to boot above and beyond the fact that pistols are just as strong as rifles.

[Captator]

Pre-tale

I assume you mean 'pray tell'.

 

Pistols should be inferior to long guns, if not I want to carry dual long guns, so I can back up my gorgon with a gorgon :P

 

(also, have yadda yadda'd at length about this, but they need to introduce movespeed modifiers for weapons and other tradeoffs, so an LMG can actually be an LMG instead of what it is currently.)

Edited May 15, 2013 by Captator

[TennoSkoom]

The problem is the that Gorgon doesn't really shine when taking on Armored anything and most of time High Health/Heavily Armored coincide. Never mind the fact both the Boltors/Akboltos have polarity slots giving them more affective points to work with. Simply put if what you are shooting has any kind of armor resistance then you would be better off with the Boltor/Akboltos and the fact of the matter is mostly everything in the game does especially the bosses.

 

Complete armor ignore is a broken game mechanic as it stands.

 

I would like to see the Gorgon with some significant Puncture ability and I'm not talking .6 of a meter. If the gun could shoot through multiple targets in a zerg and did more equivalent damage then it would actually fulfill a function and be viable.

 

Side Note: I was only able to pull a 9.3 click per sec on adverage..

 

I think you'll find armor piercing mods alleviate this. Gorgon shines over boltor in terms of hyena and jackal at the very least and i'd be willing to make a video comparison of the two weapons if requested, just as I made a video to prove the gorgons accuracy was fine for ranged targets back in 7.9 and no further changes were needed. For the sake of ease and proving that the gorgon works well against granieer i'll drop that video here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMsDSP9q3wc

as a note this gorgon was not minmax'd for granieer at the time, your milage may vary based on your modding. Video was recorded on sedna - marrow in 7.9.0

 

Mind you, i don't actually use the gorgon or boltor that much these days unless taking on bosses to help friends with blueprints, as i'm often leveling weapons trying to get from mastery rank 8 to 9 and bring my hek for backup most of the time.

[Zhonatta]

I think you'll find armor piercing mods alleviate this. Gorgon shines over boltor in terms of hyena and jackal at the very least and i'd be willing to make a video comparison of the two weapons if requested, just as I made a video to prove the gorgons accuracy was fine for ranged targets back in 7.9 and no further changes were needed. For the sake of ease and proving that the gorgon works well against granieer i'll drop that video here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMsDSP9q3wc

as a note this gorgon was not minmax'd for granieer at the time, your milage may vary based on your modding. Video was recorded on sedna - marrow in 7.9.0

 

Mind you, i don't actually use the gorgon or boltor that much these days unless taking on bosses to help friends with blueprints, as i'm often leveling weapons trying to get from mastery rank 8 to 9 and bring my hek for backup most of the time.

 

Every mod you put on the Gorgon can and most likely will be on the Boltor and 1 of which should be a higher rank due to the polarity slot. I fail to see how the Gorgon can do more damage on an armored target using less points and the same mods.

 

Also I am not saying the Gorgon is broken. I am just saying that it is vastly out damaged in most cases by the 2 other guns.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Zhonatta