Alert System Upcoming Problems In The Future

[Thypari2013]

Right now, it is relatively "okay" to get something you really want.

Everyone wanted the Glaive and there were 4(?) alerts since the release with it.

 

 

Now we have 11 helmets, 11 artifacts, 9weapon bps, 2 orokin bps, 4 weapon skin bps. Total of 37.

Let's say there are 10 alerts per 24h. You are sleeping or are working 12hours (Which is a very small consideration).

So you miss half of them and only see 5.

 

Now the chance to get one special alert reward you really want to have would be:  13.5%

This seems pretty good.

 

But what happens if there are more and more alert rewards coming as the game progresses?

With double the amount of alert rewards (74) the chance will be reduced to: 6.7%

With tripple the amount (111): 4.5%

 

Considering they now also add warframe bps to the alerts and people are occupied more than 50% of the day the chances go to under 1%.

 

This means:

As time progresses players will get more frustrating about not being able to get the rewards they want from alerts. This means DE will have to change the system anyhow. The question is: Will they wait until lots of people are frustrated?

 

[Honeybad6er]

I'm still waiting for my dark sword/dagger blue print alert mission.

[Bowac]

Honey ur going to have to wait a long time those two are the rarest weapons to get.

[Koladin]

To be honest the fact you need to hope you get lucky is a good thing. It shouldn't be that simple easy or a 'within one week I has everything' deal. The one thing I don't like about the alert system is that everyone who runs it gets the same thing. I would love for the drops to be randomized for everyone. Run it with a squad of four and have one person get something awesome, two something average and one person gets a wooden spoon. I don't personally like the fact that as it stands everyone gets the same thing from it, makes it all a bit too grindy. Would be more interesting for someone who is lacking that last weapon blueprint to have a chance at what they want every time than having to hope they are on at the right time. At the same time I  haven't read up on the system being used to do the alerts so maybe that is just not viable. My two cents though. ^_^

[rksk16it]

To be honest the fact you need to hope you get lucky is a good thing. It shouldn't be that simple easy or a 'within one week I has everything' deal. The one thing I don't like about the alert system is that everyone who runs it gets the same thing. I would love for the drops to be randomized for everyone. Run it with a squad of four and have one person get something awesome, two something average and one person gets a wooden spoon. I don't personally like the fact that as it stands everyone gets the same thing from it, makes it all a bit too grindy. Would be more interesting for someone who is lacking that last weapon blueprint to have a chance at what they want every time than having to hope they are on at the right time. At the same time I  haven't read up on the system being used to do the alerts so maybe that is just not viable. My two cents though. ^_^

 

Not everyone likes the grind. I would like to get "everything" the instant I enter the game so I can enjoy the end game content. Before someone jumps and say it never happens in any game, go look at some MOBAs, like Smite.

[Wattari]

Blind luck isn't a "good thing" no matter how hard you try to spin it.

 

It is always an infinitely-better option to reward skill more so than luck in a game.  That's not to say that some luck-based things are bad (mod drops, for instance, are most easily and sensibly distributed through random drops), but these really big rewards, like reactors/catalysts or alert-specific weapon blueprints being random rewards available for 30 to 60 minutes at a time for little tangible effort are inherently bad design; they necessarily exclude them from being obtained by a large portion of the playerbase, for no reason other than blind luck saying it'll be available at a time when they can't play.

 

Realistically, all this accomplishes is making players resentful of the alert system.  In more extreme cases, it'll cause them to simply stop playing because it's designed to be unfair to players.  Therefore, making the "big" rewards in alerts being available for 12 to 24 hours, but instead require more intense tests of skill (note:  This doesn't mean "a bunch of high-level enemies" or "a really long mission," but rather, a special mission type that has a high player skill requirement to complete by design), would make the system much more fair, as players are no longer essentially playing the lottery to see if they can get something they want, and are instead earning it - by having spent time in-game honing their skills to the point where they can accomplish legitimately-challenging missions.

 

If you want an example of a similar system, rewarding highly-skilled play rather than dumb luck, look at the Challenge Mode missions in Phantasy Star Online:  You're temporarily reduced to a specific level, given specific equipment and a very specific area that you and your team have to clear without anyone dying.  If so much as one player dies without one of the very-limited revive items in their inventory, they lose.  When players complete all of the Challenge Mode missions, they're rewarded with a weapon that can otherwise not be obtained by players.  It's a very good system, and is something that could be used as inspiration for a similar type of challenge mission here - at the same time, it also doesn't bar players from playing it due to not having grinded up to a specific rank or not having thrown enough money at the game to be equipped properly to participate.  It's fair to all players, and rewards skill instead of being lucky enough to be able to log in at the right time of day to complete a trivial-at-worst mission.

[Timmuk]

It still shouldnt be easy to get all the rare items in the game

 

I would like to see an escalation type alert system....if one is completed, there is a chance that another, and harder, alert is spawned only for your group....this can chain 2 or 3 times and have increased rewards

 

Also so DE could make some $$$ of it, there could be a booster that increases your chain chance for 3d or 7days, much like the boosters for credits or afinity

[Wattari]

It still shouldnt be easy to get all the rare items in the game

 

I would like to see an escalation type alert system....if one is completed, there is a chance that another, and harder, alert is spawned only for your group....this can chain 2 or 3 times and have increased rewards

 

Also so DE could make some $$$ of it, there could be a booster that increases your chain chance for 3d or 7days, much like the boosters for credits or afinity

Nobody is saying it should be easy (and I suspect that the majority of opponents to change are doing so because they think people want it "easy," which is probably the basis of their entire argument).  In fact, I'd love it to be challenging.  Blind luck is the opposite of that on a conceptual level, however.

 

A system for chaining missions that are accelerating in difficulty, but also in rewards, is actually a pretty good idea for this sort of thing as well.  Some RPGs do this for loot rates or EXP gains, and it actually adds a rather nice risk-versus-reward system into the game, that allows players to use their skills (as players, not simply the numbers on their characters) to affect their rate of advancement.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Wattari

[rksk16it]

It still shouldnt be easy to get all the rare items in the game.

 

It shouldnt be easy, but difficulty should not be present ONLY in terms of luck.

 

Low chance of a drop, doesnt make it difficult, it just makes it time consuming. If you want to say "getting rare stuff should take a long time" then state it clearly, rather than bringing easy/difficult into the equation, as we all know this game is super easy besides higher waves of defense.

 

What is difficult then ? Go play a moba and try to win 10 matches in a row against equal skilled players. Now THAT is difficult. Thats not time consuming at all, each match can last from 15 minutes to 1 hour only.

[liavalenth]

The Alert system needs work, and I do hope they make it a top priority after U8 comes out. They already know the Alert system is not good, and will do something about it. Unfortunently when they will do something is unknown.

[MusicGamer]

Right now, it is relatively "okay" to get something you really want.

Everyone wanted the Glaive and there were 4(?) alerts since the release with it.

 

 

Now we have 11 helmets, 11 artifacts, 9weapon bps, 2 orokin bps, 4 weapon skin bps. Total of 37.

Let's say there are 10 alerts per 24h. You are sleeping or are working 12hours (Which is a very small consideration).

So you miss half of them and only see 5.

 

Now the chance to get one special alert reward you really want to have would be:  13.5%

This seems pretty good.

 

But what happens if there are more and more alert rewards coming as the game progresses?

With double the amount of alert rewards (74) the chance will be reduced to: 6.7%

With tripple the amount (111): 4.5%

 

Considering they now also add warframe bps to the alerts and people are occupied more than 50% of the day the chances go to under 1%.

 

This means:

As time progresses players will get more frustrating about not being able to get the rewards they want from alerts. This means DE will have to change the system anyhow. The question is: Will they wait until lots of people are frustrated?

Here's what I think:  The Alerts system is too new and it's too early to be making assumptions on what the devs will do concerning it.  My proposed course of action is wait and see what they decide to do - maybe they change something about the system in Update 8, maybe they don't.  If the Alerts system starts heading down a path that we don't like (as opposed to now, when it seems more or less acceptable), then we start saying something about it.  And if the past is any indication, the devs will listen.

Edited May 16, 2013 by MusicGamer

[Venarge]

Other option would be to make all the different helmets and skins plat only like other games do.

In my opinion, people should be happy that they even have the chance to get alternative skins/helmets from alerts.

[Loswaith]

A big part of the alert issue is perception.  No one likes twitter or the app taunting them with "you missed X item" simply becuse you were living your life.

 

Sure the drops will increase, but thats not realy the crux of the issue.

 

The crux and a simple fix to the problem I mentioned in another post (I'll hide a copy here for you):

Ultimatly it depends on the actual cause of the disapointment people feel.

Is it simply because they missed an alert or because they know they missed the orokin catalyst/reactor or glaive blueprint or whatever other blueprint?

 

Most people dont seem to have issue with grinding a boss, why?  It's not because they missed out on the X blueprint, its becuse they dont know for that specific run it will be the X blueprint and can try again for X blueprint on the next one (the latter part is the key difference).

 

They didnt have an expectation that it would be what they wanted, it could of been, but was more likely to be something else, and they have an option to try again within a reasonable time frame.

 

A simple factor is make Alerts completly random loot (a chance at anything in the alert loot table) to the group, like capture, raid, defence and other missions that give rewards to the group on completion.  I went with group rewards because thats how current missions work so no need to change that code to individual rewards.

 

Alerts become either "I dont need X blueprint so dont try" or "I missed out on X blueprint but cant try again because the next alert has Y", to "I missed the X blueprint on that alert but can try again for X blueprint on the next '?' alert".

 

There is also the factor if you have a clan member that needs X blueprint (or artifact), but you dont, you may be less inclined to help them (because you dont need it and wont realy get any reward, especially if you are farming for something else), however if there is a chance you will get the Y blueprint you needed, you likely will go.  Will you feel disapointed in the end, maybe but just as much as any boss run that doesnt drop the blueprint you were after.

 

It realy comes down to perception going into it.  Sure there could be better ways to do it than this, but this seems the simplest and least work for DE, so likely more of a chance for them implement it.  While serving to alliveiate twitter or the app taunting you that you missed X or Y blueprint, because you were living your life.

 

It also means you may have to do 5 or 10 alerts to "earn" the blueprint/artifact you want too.

 

 

I dont personally care for grinding, because a boss/ mission I know I can beat gets old after the 3rd or 4th time in a row.  I dont feel like I'm earning it because there is little challenge and I new going in I would win, so feel I'm simply having my time wasted.

 

So I do see merit in the current system though for those like me that have other things they could be doing during that alert that drops what I dont want.  That said I'd still prefer it to be random loot (which the '?' rather implies) from a table of decent loot (so you will get something that is good, even if I do happen to have it already, but maybe a clan/friend doesnt), so If I get a catalyst blueprint its an 'oh cool' moment, rather than an 'eh, i got the catalyst'.

 

Challenge is also subjective as player skill varies quite allot, as does the power of a warframe/weapon (though everyone can reach the warframe/weapon potentials).  What one player finds easy another may find quite difficuilt.  A professional sports team taking on an equivlent professional team is a challenge, to an amature team its simply impossible, the amature team may simply never have the skills to take on a professional one ever.

There in lies the big issue of reward for challenge. 

 

A fairer alternative but more difficuilt to implement is some kind of base reward currency/token, in that by completing X mission you get Y toknes.  Sure this amounts to grinding but its finite grinding.  So say you need to farm Jackal for Rhino blueprints, instead of a random drop you get say 10 tokens, each blueprint could cost 50 tokens so you know everyone needs to do jackal 5 times per piece so they can 'buy' the bits to make the Rhino.

 

Alerts could do a similar kind of tokens for the drops so you may need to do any say 5 alerts to get the alert tokens to 'buy' say a darksword blueprint,  Maybe the glaive is rarer so you need to effectivly do 10 alerts to get the tokens.

whatever the case you know you need to do X number of alerts for Y reward.

 

Either way having a set reward on individual alerts I think is the key problem for Alerts, not the alert mechanic in-of itself.

[rksk16it]

Challenge is also subjective as player skill varies quite allot, as does the power of a warframe/weapon (though everyone can reach the warframe/weapon potentials).  What one player finds easy another may find quite difficuilt.  A professional sports team taking on an equivlent professional team is a challenge, to an amature team its simply impossible, the amature team may simply never have the skills to take on a professional one ever.

There in lies the big issue of reward for challenge.

 

Very true, and this is why lots of players prefer rewards based on grinding rather than skill, and they are quite justified. But then it cannot be said that getting the item/mod/whatever is "hard", its just "time consuming".

[Loswaith]

Other option would be to make all the different helmets and skins plat only like other games do.

...

Here in lies another problem, for me cosmetic stuff is something I wont pay for unless it of a trivial cost (I'm sure there are others that this applies to as well).

 

I prefer to get stuff that effects gameplay and the like for my cash, so the things like slots, warframes, sentinals and the like appeal to me provided they are cost effective as well.

 

Having some cosmetic stuff as drops/loot is a good idea for those that dont want to pay for it like myself, because even though it's typically meaningless to gameplay it is something we will work towards getting through play, and adds to the good will.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Loswaith

[Thypari2013]

I think the system of random rewards is a good solution.

DE could also address the problem of too easy to obtain.

 

A suggestion would be:

- Make all rewards random for every player.

- Tune the alerts to be like the tutorial, but with multiple people. Everyone gets a finished frame with specific rank and equipment and then the team has to do a mission. If they fail (1member dies), they can't do it again.

- Give every player the same 6 alerts per day, specified on rank and weapon rank. 4 Alerts with only credits and 2 with additional random reward. Which can be done 24h until new ones replace the old ones.

 

Example:

1. Alert: Rescue

Random warframe rank 8, all 4 abilities

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 7

Random melee rank 5

Corpus enemy Level: 7-12

Reward: 2300 credits + ?

 

2. Alert: Extinction

Random warframe rank 26, only ability 1

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 5

Random melee rank 27

Invested enemy Level: 26-29

Reward: 2900 credits + ?

 

3. Alert: Sabotage

Random warframe rank 16, only ability 2 & 3

Random primary rank 6 and secondary weapon rank 17

Grinneer enemy Level: 15-17

Reward: 4800 credits

 

4.....

 

Pro:

- Disappointment shifted from "couldn't attend" to own / team failure during an alert.

- Disappointment reduced because you have a chance to solve them every day.

- Independent from own progress, because you use predefined warframes. This also is a good testing scenario because you can play weapons / frames you haven't used before.

- Reward through challenging missions and skill instead of purely time to attend.

- Big fun factor because of the randomly predefined warframes and the challenges, which come with them.

 

Con:

- Implementation time

- Could be frustrating if you fail a mission because of player x (although it is always a team effort).

Edited May 16, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Argoms]

I think the system of random rewards is a good solution.

DE could also address the problem of too easy to obtain.

 

A suggestion would be:

- Make all rewards random for every player.

- Tune the alerts to be like the tutorial, but with multiple people. Everyone gets a finished frame with specific level and equipment and then the team has to do a mission. If they fail (1member dies), they can't do it again.

- Give them 6 alerts per day. 4 with only credits and 2 with additional rewards. Which can be done 24h until new ones replace the old ones.

 

Pro:

- Disappointment shifted from "couldn't attend" to own / team failure during an alert.

- Disappointment reduced because you have a chance to solve them every day.

- Independent from own progress, because you use predefined warframes. This also is a good testing scenario because you can play weapons / frames you haven't used before.

- Reward through challenging missions and skill instead of purely time to attend.

- Big fun factor because of the randomly predefined warframes and the challenges, which come with them.

 

Con:

- Implementation time

- Could be frustrating if you fail a mission because of player x (although it is always a team effort).

How does a team's alert count work? Does joining another player's alert take away from your own, or do you get to keep yours (effectively giving a team of four 24 alerts per day)?

 

Randomized weapons could also be a problem, unless everyone is level 1 or something. Other than that, seems like it could be fun.

[Thypari2013]

How does a team's alert count work? Does joining another player's alert take away from your own, or do you get to keep yours (effectively giving a team of four 24 alerts per day)?

 

Randomized weapons could also be a problem, unless everyone is level 1 or something. Other than that, seems like it could be fun.

 

Every player has 6 specific alerts per day. Specified in the reward credits, warframes + ranks, weapons + ranks, enemy levels and mission type.

If you attend an alert you haven't done yet it will be gone from your selection screen.

If you've already done it and join a friend, you only get the things you will find while running the mission but no rewards at the end.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Ryanshow]

I concur with the problem. ME3 had the same issue with the random unlock system and adding new content.

 

A key difference here though is that you have the option to buy exactly what you want for most items through platinum. So I've got less beef with them since this is a business strategy, and one that is fair to us since we have the option of getting what we want outside of gambling.

 

The dark sword and dagger being the exception. But I'm not opposed to having a few items be very rare.

 

I do have a problem with the repeat alerts though. I saw rifle scavenger alerts twice in a row yesterday. Thats dumb, quite honestly I think this stuff should be random and you shouldn't know what you're potentially getting, with the stipulation that you'll get something different or if you get a duplicate you get some sort of compensation like affinity and credits, or perhaps a rare mod.

[Argoms]

I concur with the problem. ME3 had the same issue with the random unlock system and adding new content.

 

A key difference here though is that you have the option to buy exactly what you want for most items through platinum. So I've got less beef with them since this is a business strategy, and one that is fair to us since we have the option of getting what we want outside of gambling.

 

The dark sword and dagger being the exception. But I'm not opposed to having a few items be very rare.

 

I do have a problem with the repeat alerts though. I saw rifle scavenger alerts twice in a row yesterday. Thats dumb, quite honestly I think this stuff should be random and you shouldn't know what you're potentially getting, with the stipulation that you'll get something different or if you get a duplicate you get some sort of compensation like affinity and credits, or perhaps a rare mod.

I don't think it IS their business strategy- charging $10+ for a single piece of equipment is apparently intended to discourage everyone but the most desperate people. 

[Ryanshow]

I don't think it IS their business strategy- charging $10+ for a single piece of equipment is apparently intended to discourage everyone but the most desperate people. 

 

That's an issue of poor pricing vs a sound plan. The execution of it is just off, and admittedly yes it is way off.

 

[Argoms]

That's an issue of poor pricing vs a sound plan. The execution of it is just off, and admittedly yes it is way off.

 

No, I mean I'm pretty sure DE has stated that they made prices high because they wanted to discourage buying equipment with platinum, since it takes away from the game.

[Excitonex]

I like the alert system as it is. I believe DE has a solution for the problem of the ever increasing item pool. Whether this comes in the form of adding older alert BPs to planets or the market or whatever, this is still beta so we don't know how this will be dealt with. You can't expect DE to talk about their loot system or how their alerts will work in the future.

 

I think the system of random rewards is a good solution.

DE could also address the problem of too easy to obtain.

 

A suggestion would be:

- Make all rewards random for every player.

- Tune the alerts to be like the tutorial, but with multiple people. Everyone gets a finished frame with specific rank and equipment and then the team has to do a mission. If they fail (1member dies), they can't do it again.

- Give every player the same 6 alerts per day, specified on rank and weapon rank. 4 Alerts with only credits and 2 with additional random reward. Which can be done 24h until new ones replace the old ones.

 

Example:

1. Alert: Rescue

Random warframe rank 8, all 4 abilities

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 7

Random melee rank 5

Corpus enemy Level: 7-12

Reward: 2300 credits + ?

 

2. Alert: Extinction

Random warframe rank 26, only ability 1

Random primary and secondary weapon rank 5

Random melee rank 27

Invested enemy Level: 26-29

Reward: 2900 credits + ?

 

3. Alert: Sabotage

Random warframe rank 16, only ability 2 & 3

Random primary rank 6 and secondary weapon rank 17

Grinneer enemy Level: 15-17

Reward: 4800 credits

 

4.....

 

Pro:

- Disappointment shifted from "couldn't attend" to own / team failure during an alert.

- Disappointment reduced because you have a chance to solve them every day.

- Independent from own progress, because you use predefined warframes. This also is a good testing scenario because you can play weapons / frames you haven't used before.

- Reward through challenging missions and skill instead of purely time to attend.

- Big fun factor because of the randomly predefined warframes and the challenges, which come with them.

 

Con:

- Implementation time

- Could be frustrating if you fail a mission because of player x (although it is always a team effort).

 

While this is a system many MMO games use to keep players playing, known as "scheduled play", it is not one I particularly enjoy. I prefer the alert system now because it is dynamic. If I log in every day, great I'm going to get a bunch of alerts and probably something good. Scheduled play turns the game in to a chore eventually. There will be a day when you log on just to do your daily alerts, that's not what a game should be about.

 

In the end it's all just a different system of randomly handing out rewards. I think there's always room for improvement but at the heart of it the alert system gives Warframe something really unique and it shouldn't be fundamentally changed.

[Argoms]

Scheduled play turns things into a chore, but alerts turn it into a waiting game. 

 

In the end, aren't these both worse than rewarding player skill (which is a much harder thing to do)?

[rksk16it]

In the end it's all just a different system of randomly handing out rewards. I think there's always room for improvement but at the heart of it the alert system gives Warframe something really unique and it shouldn't be fundamentally changed.

 

Yeap, alerts are unique in Warframe, also a bit more effective in keeping players online than other methods (like in scheduled system, everyone comes online at certain time).

 

But I *think* ... warframe at the moment, cannot capitalize on large number of players online at a same time. What I mean by that is, a typical MMO can hold special events in which many players (50 or 100 or more) can participate at once, so players who like that sort of thing can enjoy it a lot. In warframe, it doesnt really matter how many players are online at a time, you only see four random faces in a mission, do your thing and get out. Unless ofc if you are in a clan things are a bit different. Clan dojos in upcomming update-8 may change things a bit, but again, for players who are logging in solo most of the time, I dont think they can change much.