Why Does Warframe Need 'balance'?

[SerosTau]

Now, I'm all in favor of balanced design-I've played WoW entirely too long not to be.  But let's step back just a second and think about this, and I'm going to use Rhino as an example here.

 

Was Iron Skin overpowered?  Sure.  To the point that it probably should have been the Ulti skill, or at least the 75 pointer.  But was it *out of line*?  The issue being is that now, Rhino has to health tank.  That's what it amounts to-Iron Skin allowed you breathing room in a hectic situation (or to get teammates up when they did questionable things), but with even a smaller nerf than this-that is to say, allowing ANY damage at all through-negates half the abilities usefulfness.  Now, Iron Skin is a pre-emptive button as opposed to an "AH HELL!" button, which completely flips the playstyle.  Being beta, some of this is expected, but it should be looked at through that lense.

 

I have no doubt in my mind that players will still be successful as time goes on and that Rhino will still appeal to people.  But the magic is gone.  People who know that it was 'limited invulnerability' are going to feel screwed pretty much no matter what.  You won't see Rhino out there as much, there won't be as much excitement around it, and his special place as a Rank 2 Warframe is now entirely undeserved.

 

At it's core, Warframe is multi player co-op PvE game that uses 3PS mechanics.  I'm not sure that game balance is or should be a major consideration for a game like this.  The plan to add duels to the dojo is where I think this really comes from. 

 

There's one other point to be made, which is that now that it appears you guys are trying to 'balance' warframe skills, everyone will demand that all the other subjectively (and some objectively) over powered skills get nerfed.  I would tend to think a studio like yours could put its resources in better places than constantly dealing with nerf/buff requests.

[suadumpy]

Probably for PvP. ._.

[BlueEden]

I think most people have difficulty with the iron skin nerf because there are other warframes that had the same ability (that usually does damage as well) that weren't adjusted at the same time. Now our only tank warframe that is XP locked can't avoid damage as effectively as the healer or even some DPS frames (or the other tank), and its direct damage abilities aren't as good either.

Edited May 18, 2013 by BlueEden

[Kadishia]

Dueling going have major Balance issues. If someone finds an exploit...people will start using it until DE puts the foot into it.

[Ellert]

You know i just decided to come back to the forum and type up something like this after thinking about the nerf for a while.

I mainly played Rhino that will probably have to change now because the ability to simply walk up to stuff and start hacking it to pieces with my melee weapon and knowing for certain that i could rely on IS to get me out if i miscalculated was what made this frame so much fun for me. The skill was probably OP but it was also FUN and i ll miss that. And for that reason alone i d agree with your opinion about balance.

 

I also agree with you that the duels are the most likely reason for wanting balance although i hope that there won t be nerf this nerf that because otherwise it wouldn t be fair threads. That would only drag the game down and it should be fun to play and not you need to play frame X with those mods or you ll suck.

 

Well overall in my opinion: Good post mate

[RealityMachina]

I think part of the problem is that there's no way to actually customize difficulty on various maps, so changes that some players may want would not fulfill the desires of other players.

 

Even just a basic "Do you want to assault a normal Grineer/Corpus/Infested ship or assault a Legionnarie/MegaCorpus/Abomination ship?" choice (IE give players the option of an "elite" option where they face tougher enemies than normal) could probably go a bit of a way for satisifying people who liked to be virtually kicked in the balls (which in of itself, isn't bad. I keep modding nuXCOM when I feel like Full Second Wave Impossible Ironman isn't just hard enough for me) without affecting everyone else (which can be bad if your primary audience isn't the aforementioned people who liked to be virtually kicked in the balls).

Edited May 18, 2013 by RealityMachina

[AscendantWyvern]

I disagree. Personally, saying that PvE doesnt need balance is a cop-out and frankly, wrong. Is balance less of a factor than in PvP gaming? Yes, however balance is still vital.

Having one character or one ability trump all others is simply poor development and is a sign of a bad game. When you create an environment that encourages your players to take one path in order to be competent in their field, you create a metagame that simply isn't fun to play in.

Balance is extremely important to the development of any game, even single player games (You don't want the player to simply choose the same experience over and over again do you?) Do developers overreact when it comes to nerfing an ability or weapon, all the time. However, players overreact in even worse manners, cursing out the devs for removing their easy-mode, their exploit, their OP gun. That is the biggest flaw in the system, not the devs, but the community. We help shape our game's future. We are the balance, but ONLY if we provide constructive and educational feedback. (While I disagree with your statement, your post is a good example of such a constructive post)

[Shion963]

We were promised that there will be no balancing act on skills/weapons for Duelling, and I'd like to believe that.

 

So the only other reason I can think of why Iron Skin and Sound Quake was nerfed is because they were eclipsing the other three abilities the respective warframes have to the point where players use that skill, and that skill only to carry them through levels.

 

Honestly I was kinda annoyed at how Banshee is always Sound Quake, and that's it.

Makes it seem like all of us Banshee players seem to only have one tactic: uber-spam. :/

[D3thpool]

At it's core, Warframe is multi player co-op PvE game that uses 3PS mechanics.  I'm not sure that game balance is or should be a major consideration for a game like this.  The plan to add duels to the dojo is where I think this really comes from. 

 

There's one other point to be made, which is that now that it appears you guys are trying to 'balance' warframe skills, everyone will demand that all the other subjectively (and some objectively) over powered skills get nerfed.  I would tend to think a studio like yours could put its resources in better places than constantly dealing with nerf/buff requests.

 

This is exactly the point.

This is no competitive pvp game, there is no gain in nerfing skills/warframes for the overall experience, there is no competition to be had here..

When will devs realise that a pve focused game should be fun & the player should have powerfull tools at his disposal to beat the content & sometimes also breeze through it.

IMO this is adding artificial difficult into the game, when instead there should be thougher mobs/bosses/more challenges to overcome etc.

 

 

Limiting/nerfing the players abilitys is/was always a lazy way to add a challenge into the game when certain things worked too well & a overhaul to the actual content was too much of a hassle.

 

Again, this is no competitive game where balancing must take place to prevent cookiecutter builds/heroes/etc

The frames should be powerfull as hell & not slowly turned into a &*$$genic state where to only difference between characters is the different looks.

 

 

edit: instead of nerfing certain abilitys there should be a retuning of the other ones that are not up to par.

like making rhinos other skills actually worth using, same goes for banshee in that regard.

Edited May 18, 2013 by D3thpool

[Caiman]

I'm pretty sure the devs are aiming for balance - not between different warframes - but between an individual warframe's 4 skills.

 

Iron Skin eclipsed every other skill in Rhino's repertoire - its complete invincibility made all of his other crowd-control skills (relatively) pointless. Why knock enemies down or stasis-launch them if you can make them harmless just as effectively for longer and at less energy cost? (Except maybe in high-level defense)

 

 

edit: instead of nerfing certain abilitys there should be a retuning of the other ones that are not up to par.

like making rhinos other skills actually worth using, same goes for banshee in that regard.

 

I see this kind of complaint a lot, but I don't think there was a good way to buff any of those other skills to the point that they could compete directly with Iron Skin. Iron Skin is always useful, whereas most skills are supposed to be situational. Rhinos's ult (or really, any ult in the game) could never match the total utility of 2 Iron Skin casts except in very specific conditions.

 

Even if over-buffing the rest of the skills to such a level were an option, it would make the game less fun, because it would feel like a disadvantage to play as any other frame. And if every single frame and ability gets super-buffed to match? It's back to the "too easy!" complaints, except now it's a ludicrous proposition to make non-cheap enemies that can stand a chance against overpowered players.

[SerosTau]

First off, I just want to thank everyone for being AWESOME in their responses and staying away from flames.  I normally expect those kinds of things when I ask people to think.  Seriously, try it in the WoW forums sometimes, and put on your sunscreen.  :)

 

I wanted to hit on the guy who disagreed with me, because he had something he said that's not quite correct, at least not through my lense of experience in Warframe. but I do want to say that his respectful, gentlemanly disagreement is noted and I see where he's coming from.  *tips hat*

 

Having one character or one ability trump all others is simply poor development and is a sign of a bad game. When you create an environment that encourages your players to take one path in order to be competent in their field, you create a metagame that simply isn't fun to play in.

Balance is extremely important to the development of any game, even single player games (You don't want the player to simply choose the same experience over and over again do you?) Do developers overreact when it comes to nerfing an ability or weapon, all the time. However, players overreact in even worse manners, cursing out the devs for removing their easy-mode, their exploit, their OP gun. That is the biggest flaw in the system, not the devs, but the community. We help shape our game's future. We are the balance, but ONLY if we provide constructive and educational feedback. (While I disagree with your statement, your post is a good example of such a constructive post)

 

There are multiple characters with such abilities.  Even Ember, widely regarded as being borderline useless most of the time, is brutally OP against Infested where many (not all) other frames struggle.  Ember's problem is really only having one GOOD ability...  which I could also argue *was* Rhino's issue.  As many people have pointed out, Trinity and Frost are also in the 'infinitank' mode, but evidently Loki has been a long running offender with constant stealth.  I'm QUITE sure that Vauban's Bastille is going to get thrown into this category as well, but we'll see.

 

Now, are there other frames that aren't so 'game breaking?'  I don't have the depth of experience to say yes or no, but I'm going with probably.  Volt seems a likely candidate here, but that could be my outside perception.  For me as a player, I love that moment when things get completely out of control, and the clever use of seriously OP abilities saves the day.  I'll give you contrasting examples.  These ARE subjective, 'cuz it represents what I like.

 

Borderlands 2 has done this AMAZINGLY well.  Your active skills are GAME BREAKING there, and while it can be argued you could do everything with 'just' cover and gun play, the game is more *fun* for being able to haul off like a maniac in a crazy situation and come out on top.

 

Diablo 3 did this really well at first, and as time went on, much, MUCH worse.  Maybe it's intentional given the horror nature of Diablo, but I'm leaning toward they screwed up an incredibly fun experience. 

 

I like the creative chaos that is Bordlerands 2.  Is invulnerable Rhino boring in comparison?  ABSOLUTELY.  But for people learning the game, who haven't seen everything all the other frames can do, it gives them a chance to feel strong.

[CosyPigeon]

As this is primarily a PVE game, we don't need balance, that being said, every frame and piece of equipment should excel at it's intended role, so that even if some other piece of equipment or frame is better overall, the original is fun to use because in certain situations it's still awesome. Currently rhino sucks at his intended role, and since he sucks in every other aspect because he used to be good at his intended role, now he just plain sucks, and isn't fun to use at all.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I'm pretty sure the devs are aiming for balance - not between different warframes - but between an individual warframe's 4 skills.

 

Yes this sums it up very well.

 

It's not just the developers but nerf threads too.

 

Problem is we are using the frames.

 

The skills and stats make up the frame.

 

If your playstyle relies on gunplay then you rely on its stats for assessment of its prowess.

 

If your playstyle relies on spells then you rely on its skills for assessment of its prowess.

 

Majority will be a bit of both.

 

When one skill is nerfed without doing neccessary changes to its other skills and/or its stats, the frame (skills + stats) in general is nerfed.

 

Now the issue is not whether Iron Skin was OP but whether Rhino was OP.

 

Was everyone using Rhino? Was it the best at attacking? Was it the best at tanking? Was it the best at healing?

 

Did it beat the other frames in all those?

 

If only Iron Skin (skill) was OP and Rhino (skill + stats) was not, it should not be nerfed with no changes made to other skills and stats.

 

Basically,

Stats + Skills = Frame

the nerf was a negative on skills since only one skills was nerfed and no buffs to other skills.

 

Therefore, overall frame was nerfed but was frame OP?

Edited May 18, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Thelonious]

Consider it this way:

You spent time, effort, or worse money to get the frame/weapon you so much desire.

You get into a pug game, and a fellow Tenno joins with THAT OP FRAME: the one with THAT OP SKILL (insert flavour of the month here)

He kills everything with ease with the help of THAT OP SKILL, leaving you useless. Worse case scenario, you have the same kind of skill, but it's useless cause his is waaaaaay better (more range, more damage, more duration, just...more

*coughSoundQuakecough*)

In the end you spent most of the game watching that guy spoiling all the fun you usually have with that frame you like so much.

Sounds fair to you?

Or another usual trend among F2P's: They release a weapon/character/stuff that has just the same role as your favoriteweapon/character/stuff, but better.

Like when you usually used a frame in your group for that particular skillset so useful in that particular case. The new frame just does it better, and some more *coughVaubanindefensecough*

Why bother? everyone buys it and uses it instead of the old one. Yummy cash for the devs, bitter taste in the mouth for the players who spend time/effort/cash for the old one.

Sounds fair to you?

It also applies to Rhino in fact: now that Iron Skin is nerfed, people will chose to play Trinity instead, with Link having the same utility, but better now.

Not fair to those who spent so much time/effort/money into Rhino.

I think balance is needed at some point. PVE or not, it's a multiplayer game. Every player should play a role as equal as possible towards fun.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

It also applies to Rhino in fact: now that Iron Skin is nerfed, people will chose to play Trinity instead, with Link having the same utility, but better now.

Not fair to those who spent so much time/effort/money into Rhino.

 

Don't worry. Trinity's next on the list.

 

Now, predict whose turn is it after her's.

 

Who will be making Trinity look bad after her?

 

There's balancing something and then there's making it useless because it's better than something else.

 

The shotgun nerf for example, before DE fixed it, was so extreme and unnecessary, and it was a sweep nerf as well so it targeted all three of them. For some reason because the Hek was deemed overpowered this was apparently good reason to nerf the Strun and Boar as well, neither of which were overpowered.

 

DE has this bizarre mentality of "nerf hard first and take feedback later." A DE employee in the clan I'm in took flak yesterday for the Rhino skin nerf prior to it being explained that the toxic/stun immunity being removed was accidental. Somebody brought up that Trinity can now tank better than Rhino. The employee's response? "Oh we're going to nerf her as well." So basically, because Rhino is now worse than Trinity, the answer isn't to rework Rhino to make him a better tank, but to nerf Trinity into the ground when she's already useless outside boss fights.

Edited May 18, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Babalenong]

so people wont stick to a single frame/weapon

[Softandsquishy]

Don't worry. Trinity's next on the list.

 

Now, predict whose turn is it after her's.

 

Who will be making Trinity look bad after her?

 

I think they already nerfed Trinity a little bit. Link and Blessing seem to no longer have invulnerability frames.  

 

I died twice while casting Blessing yesterday.  I also noticed myself taking shield damage while casting Link as well. Casting Blessing while being attacked at all can be a death sentence now.

 

I'd be better off using Mag or Saryn to kill everything. I dislike this change greatly.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I think they already nerfed Trinity a little bit. Link and Blessing seem to no longer have invulnerability frames.  

 

I died twice while casting Blessing yesterday.  I also noticed myself taking shield damage while casting Link as well. Casting Blessing while being attacked at all can be a death sentence now.

 

I'd be better off using Mag or Saryn to kill everything. I dislike this change greatly.

 

Guess Mag or Saryn's next in line.

[SerosTau]

There's an innate flaw in the logic to a few of these arguments.  The idea that everyone will use THAT thing.

 

Now I grant you, for people who read forums, who have to be the best at everything they do...  yeah, they'll go to whatever flavor of the month there is.  See League of Legends when they release new, poorly balanced champions.

 

However, people are also notoriously finicky.  Your 'best play style and if you don't play like this you're dumb' may be something that makes no sense at all to someone else.  As far as I'm concerned, Rhino was that way.  Yeah, it was strong, but it was kind've a one trick pony.  It was a useful trick, but it was nothing that say, Excalibur with Shade couldn't accomplish simply by KILLING clusters of enemies that the rest of the team ignored, and when I'm playing in Online mode?  Skipping enemies for everyone else to have to deal with is my number one complaint with people, and I LOVE when it comes back to bite them in the &#!, alone, in the boss room, with the boss and forty guys.  "Help guyz im down!"  "Love to, but the rest of us are about six rooms behind, so you're gunna die." 

 

Someone mentioned the OP guy coming into your game and killing everything, leaving you basically a bystander.  To that I just have to say get better.  That guy is very probably NOT just using 'I win buttons,' but their reaction times are better, their precision shooting is better, and they know the most opportune times to use their abilities for when they'll do the most good. 

 

By that measure?  I have a long ways to go.  I've played a few rounds where I was behind EVERYBODY and felt positively useless.  I collected my loot and moved on, humbled.  But for that experience, I learned a few tricks, and have since walked into rooms and BEEN 'the guy' that did all the rocking, and believe me.  Some of it is OP buttons, but a lot more of it is knowing your full suite of maneuvers and being bold enough to make them work.  And for me?  A lot of it has been playing more boldly instead of relying on cover so much...  which is a lot easier to do when the entire map has other bodies to shoot at.  ;p

 

My proposition here is that we DON'T go to George Takei's 'lowest common denominator of butt hurt.'  We're space ninjas killing literal armies of highly trained, efficient, technically inclined, and completely unending genetic monstrosities.  Ninjas ARE over powered.  Space ninjas?  That's a new level of over powered.

 

The last thing to say here is that if you feel those buttons make the game too easy, don't use them.  Use a different frame.  But why would you do that when this is optimal?  Other than choosing to be different...  you're not asking me, you're asking yourself.  You think the game is easy because of WHATEVER, but you won't play the game without WHATEVER...  that doesn't sound like an issue with the game to me, and I understand that people are going to find that insulting.  I'm playing Frost right now because Snowglobe gives me an emergency backstop for when I TRY to do something crazy so I can go back to what I know I do well.  I'm pretty damn sure, both from a personal and a team standpoint, that video games have enough design space for a 5-15 second on demand (within limitation) safe zone.  And I'd extend that same argument to Rhino for being Indestructible.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WL5IRrhl20

[RunaCarbuncle]

Now, I'm all in favor of balanced design-I've played WoW entirely too long not to be.  But let's step back just a second and think about this, and I'm going to use Rhino as an example here.

 

Was Iron Skin overpowered?  Sure.  To the point that it probably should have been the Ulti skill, or at least the 75 pointer.  But was it *out of line*?  The issue being is that now, Rhino has to health tank.  That's what it amounts to-Iron Skin allowed you breathing room in a hectic situation (or to get teammates up when they did questionable things), but with even a smaller nerf than this-that is to say, allowing ANY damage at all through-negates half the abilities usefulfness.  Now, Iron Skin is a pre-emptive button as opposed to an "AH HELL!" button, which completely flips the playstyle.  Being beta, some of this is expected, but it should be looked at through that lense.

 

I have no doubt in my mind that players will still be successful as time goes on and that Rhino will still appeal to people.  But the magic is gone.  People who know that it was 'limited invulnerability' are going to feel screwed pretty much no matter what.  You won't see Rhino out there as much, there won't be as much excitement around it, and his special place as a Rank 2 Warframe is now entirely undeserved.

 

At it's core, Warframe is multi player co-op PvE game that uses 3PS mechanics.  I'm not sure that game balance is or should be a major consideration for a game like this.  The plan to add duels to the dojo is where I think this really comes from. 

 

There's one other point to be made, which is that now that it appears you guys are trying to 'balance' warframe skills, everyone will demand that all the other subjectively (and some objectively) over powered skills get nerfed.  I would tend to think a studio like yours could put its resources in better places than constantly dealing with nerf/buff requests.

If you think they did this for the sake of PvP then why wouldn't they have removed Frost and Trinity from the game because they'll be just as problematic.

 

Iron Skin was a dumb ability that promoted nothing but completely brain-dead play and I hope they tone back a lot of the similar skills soon in order to refine other strengths on the frames.

[SerosTau]

If you think they did this for the sake of PvP then why wouldn't they have removed Frost and Trinity from the game because they'll be just as problematic.

 

Iron Skin was a dumb ability that promoted nothing but completely brain-dead play and I hope they tone back a lot of the similar skills soon in order to refine other strengths on the frames.

 

Because there's nothing to stop you from jumping in the snowglobe or LoSing Frost while he's in it, and I'm pretty sure Trinity can be out DPS'd when you get down to it.  Sounds like that from other posters.

 

I really like how you expressed your opinion as definitive fact there, by the by.  Classy.

[Ellert]

So that got me wondering what do you think is the viable role for the Rhino now?

Because the way i see it in a party my role up till now was to be ready to jump in and revive teammates that got swarmed or tried to hug the bosses and maybe get rid of ancient toxics or disrupters which is what i used IS for mostly and second to that as a panic button if i was about to die.

All in all that had a pretty tanky feel to it and even then i could understand when people choose to play frost in defence missis for example cause snowglobe has more uses there and he s not as slow.

You can be sure that now if someone dies by being gunned down by a boss i ll not try to help him quite as often and the same goes for someone in a swarm of enemies because now the Rhino will play more like every other dps frame and not like the tank. His other skills are in my opinion not strong enough.to give him equal footing with frost and of all things trinity on the tanking front.

Therefor here i ask what would not be "brain-dead play" for the new Rhino?

Also what similar skills? Do you mean you want to get rid of all tanks and would like the game to focus more on the fast and deadly kind of ninjas or to what other strenghts were you refering?

[muccmaster]

I'm pretty sure the devs are aiming for balance - not between different warframes - but between an individual warframe's 4 skills.

 

While I somewhat agree about this, why didn't they buff his other skills then? PvE games do not need balance. Skills need to be powerful to make the game fun. All they do by nerfing is make everyone move onto the next best frame/skill. The main priority should be buffing the weaker/useless skills and frames. Not making the few good ones weaker.

[RealityMachina]

 PvE games do not need balance.

Um, yes. Yes they do. They may not need the strict balance seen in competitive PVP games like LoL or DOTA 2, but the general concept of making sure the player isn't too OP when he's in the levels and areas he should be in, especially in a F2P game still exists.

[muccmaster]

I should of worded it saying a PvE games priority should not be balance. Obviously every game needs balance, but the skills that are getting nerfed are not complete and utterly gamebreaking. Skills need to be powerful and useful or they're not fun.

Edited May 18, 2013 by muccmaster