Why Does Warframe Need 'balance'?

[Tyrian3k]

I'm pretty sure the devs are aiming for balance - not between different warframes - but between an individual warframe's 4 skills.

 

Iron Skin eclipsed every other skill in Rhino's repertoire - its complete invincibility made all of his other crowd-control skills (relatively) pointless. Why knock enemies down or stasis-launch them if you can make them harmless just as effectively for longer and at less energy cost? (Except maybe in high-level defense)

 

Balancing only between one frame's abilities is stupid. If you have a Warframe with 3 crappy abilities and one awesome ability, you nerf the crap out of that ability to make it as crappy as the others? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Iron Skin was certainly powerful, but certainly not the most powerful ability in the game. It enabled the player to do things he couldn't do with any other Warframe. Nothing could beat a Rhino at surviving in a heated battle, just as much as nothing can beat a Frost at protecting the Cryopod in a defense.

It was essentially the only unique ability that Rhino had to begin with and essentially the only reason to choose him over Frost.

[muccmaster]

^^^ exactly my point.

[11.11.11]

I disagree. Personally, saying that PvE doesnt need balance is a cop-out and frankly, wrong. Is balance less of a factor than in PvP gaming? Yes, however balance is still vital.

 

 

The proof of this, is in the experience of running with a fully leveled Banshee, who one-shots all the enemies, and screams crowds of them into submission - while you trail along after her, feeling useless. 

[RealityMachina]

I should of worded it saying a PvE games priority should not be balance. Obviously every game needs balance, but the skills that are getting nerfed are not complete and utterly gamebreaking. Skills need to be powerful and useful or they're not fun.

Yeah. I would rather prefer the enemy factions get new, bigger, badder enemies that can deal with the abilities. (Though obviously if something is utterly gamebreaking it needs to be fixed)

 

I mean, enemy power escalation in response to what the player gets can result in quite awesome things when the player finally gets to overcome the new challenge:

...even if DE's going have to think smaller since they have no maps that could fit either of those giant robots and coordinating the QTEs over the current netcode would be a $#*(@. :p

Edited May 18, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Inez]

I disagree. Personally, saying that PvE doesnt need balance is a cop-out and frankly, wrong. Is balance less of a factor than in PvP gaming? Yes, however balance is still vital.

Having one character or one ability trump all others is simply poor development and is a sign of a bad game. When you create an environment that encourages your players to take one path in order to be competent in their field, you create a metagame that simply isn't fun to play in.

Balance is extremely important to the development of any game, even single player games (You don't want the player to simply choose the same experience over and over again do you?) Do developers overreact when it comes to nerfing an ability or weapon, all the time. However, players overreact in even worse manners, cursing out the devs for removing their easy-mode, their exploit, their OP gun. That is the biggest flaw in the system, not the devs, but the community. We help shape our game's future. We are the balance, but ONLY if we provide constructive and educational feedback. (While I disagree with your statement, your post is a good example of such a constructive post)

 

If every single person is using the same warframe and guns, then you could argue its a problem.  This has not happened in Warframe.  And I certainly didn't see pugs full of Rhinos.

 

If balance were that important to the devs, they would do something about the Sicarus or Bo or Burston.  Instead they nerf a lower tier warframe.

[Inez]

The proof of this, is in the experience of running with a fully leveled Banshee, who one-shots all the enemies, and screams crowds of them into submission - while you trail along after her, feeling useless. 

 

If you trail behind a Warframe who stands perfectly still for 4 seconds on a regular basis, the problem isn't game balance.

[SerosTau]

Exactly Inez's last two posts.

 

Now again, it's beta, I get that they are feeling some of thse sorts of things out.  But the outrage over an over powered ability is frankly pretty weak.

 

I can't speak for the guys at DE of course, but I can certainly speak for myself when I set out to balance things (which I've had to do a few times, though admittedly not for a video game).  If it's game breaking in the hands of a master...  do I care?  Does it REALLY impact me?  Or is it more that I'm a jealous POS who isn't as good with my tools, so I cry for controls put on that obviously over powered BS?

 

Seriously, what is this, a video game or business and politics?

[Story4]

I think that Rhino shouldn't have had the skill reworked, since now it's useless. What the devs should have done is switch his invulnerability with his ult. Now you can use stomp when in a bind for 50 energy (since for 100 it's useless anyway) and he's most powerfull ability will cost 100 energy and you can only use it once unless you get energy orbs. Balance solved.

[11.11.11]

If you trail behind a Warframe who stands perfectly still for 4 seconds on a regular basis, the problem isn't game balance.

 

I'm sorry your highness. I forgot that my overiding lack of sheer skill must have been the reason I wasn't enjoying a match where every kill was snatched from under my nose. I'll be sure to remember my place before raising my dirty pleb voice in protest. 

[NalkorRN]

We were promised that there will be no balancing act on skills/weapons for Duelling, and I'd like to believe that.

 

So the only other reason I can think of why Iron Skin and Sound Quake was nerfed is because they were eclipsing the other three abilities the respective warframes have to the point where players use that skill, and that skill only to carry them through levels.

 

Honestly I was kinda annoyed at how Banshee is always Sound Quake, and that's it.

Makes it seem like all of us Banshee players seem to only have one tactic: uber-spam. :/

The other three skills are garbage, nerfing IS/SQ won't suddenly make Rhino/Banshee players use the other skills like mad, it'll just make them play the frames less. When 1 skill stands out above the other 3 on a warframe, it might not be that the 1 skill is superduperuberawesomeOP, but that the other 3 are so lackluster that just about everyone sees no real reason to use them outside of very specific situations.

[fishworshipper]

I'm sorry your highness. I forgot that my overiding lack of sheer skill must have been the reason I wasn't enjoying a match where every kill was snatched from under my nose. I'll be sure to remember my place before raising my dirty pleb voice in protest.

It is no fun playing when a teammate is a Banshee.

It feels like you could have sat at the spawn-room and watched the wall while your teammate does all the work and have the same effect.

[11.11.11]

It is no fun playing when a teammate is a Banshee.

It feels like you could have sat at the spawn-room and watched the wall while your teammate does all the work and have the same effect.

 

I'm not condemning Banshee outright. I'm simply saying, balance is an issue. And if you want evidence - try playing a game where your teammates do all the work, leaving you to feel worthless. Whether it's the result of inherent balance issues or simply them outleveling you. 

[fishworshipper]

I'm not condemning Banshee outright. I'm simply saying, balance is an issue. And if you want evidence - try playing a game where your teammates do all the work, leaving you to feel worthless. Whether it's the result of inherent balance issues or simply them outleveling you.

I was agreeing with you, not being sarcastic :P

[11.11.11]

I was agreeing with you, not being sarcastic :P

 

And I was just making my stance perfectly clear, so that others didn't accuse me of hating Banshee. 

[Captain_Seasick]

Every game ever in any genre ever needs to be properly balanced or it'll simply be ruined.

 

/thread

[muccmaster]

Every game ever in any genre ever needs to be properly balanced or it'll simply be ruined.

 

/thread

Agreed, but going the route of nerfing everything thats good is the worst way to go.

[fishworshipper]

Agreed, but going the route of nerfing everything thats good is the worst way to go.

Pretty much this.

[Captain_Seasick]

Agreed, but going the route of nerfing everything thats good is the worst way to go.

 

...only that the OP seemed to mostly just rag on the Rhino "nerf", much like all other WF players who has Rhino as their precious pet frame has done lately.

 

Saying that a game "doesn't need balance" is like saying that a car "doesn't need any equal distribution of weight between the wheels".

Edited May 19, 2013 by Captain_Seasick

[SerosTau]

For ME, if people felt like it was too omg amazing and they wanted it nerfed, I'd be alright with them taking off the invulnerability...  if the shield would recharge like it does when you don't take damage.  Then, you could still DIE, yes, but you'd be one tough SOB to take down, and you likely wouldn't have to soak ALL of the incoming firewall through your health.  'Cuz let's face it.  NO ONE EVER will pop Iron Skin so they can run for cover unless it's literally the only thing they can think of, and right now?  Iron Skin isn't a tanking power...  it's a run for cover power.  At least, that's how I see it.

 

I could see it being out of place in a game where I expect there to be a healer every time I go out to do something, where Rhino gets a tank flag and since he's tank, his health bar is up there on the healer's screen, but since that just does not reflect reality in Warframe, it strikes me as REALLY OFF that people would be so bent out of shape about it.  And let me be clear on this-if the above EVER reflects reality in Warframe, I'll be done with it.  That stupid trinity model is what's wrong in so many games I either liked or would otherwise like.

[SerosTau]

...only that the OP seemed to mostly just rag on the Rhino "nerf", much like all other WF players who has Rhino as their precious pet frame has done lately.

 

Saying that a game "doesn't need balance" is like saying that a car "doesn't need any equal distribution of weight between the wheels".

 

No you twaddle prattler, I picked what was a TOPICAL CASE EXAMPLE.

 

Explain to me how the game is MORE balanced with the change.  How does Rhino having damage immunity negatively affect your experience, and how does the 'balancing' of said ability improve it?  Because you're a GREAT example of what's wrong with people who say they want things nerfed.  You give no examples of why, in a DESIGN space it should be changed other than you 'feel it's OP because I saw this guy do this thing.'

 

How is the game more balanced with the change to Banshee?  Shotgun fall off?  How do these improve your experience?

 

Reality:  other than maybe the Banshee change which sounds like it was really out of hand, none of these things would have bearing on you in a PvE multiplayer game UNLESS you're slow or you suck.