Rhino Vs Ember: Durability Analysis

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

good think ember also has a skill that holds targets in the air.

i also like how she has a mobility skill that gets her around.

isnt ember great!

Ember has a skill that sets a ring of fire that deals great damage and stuns everything caught on fire. 

 

And yes, Ember is pretty fast, if you're using rhino charge only as a "mobility skill" then isn't it obvious that the skill is broken?

[Xylia]

Even if Ember's Overheat was exactly the same as Iron Skin, Ember would STILL win, because she does damage WHILE tanking, something Rhino just cannot do.

 

Rhino Charge? Pfft. What damage? I could do more damage with a gun WITHOUT spending energy to do so.

Stomp? Pretty much no damage.

Blast? Jump-Attacking with Fragor/Scindo/Gram does the same thing, AND more damage at the same time.

 

Ember, however, has other skills that do actually do damage....WHILE tanking better than Rhino can.

 

Oh, and.....Ember sprints a heck of a lot faster than Rhino does.

[Worira]

Reduction of 100 damage down to 9 'is not that good'?

 

....

 

ooookaaaayyyyy...... I guess I'll take your word for it.

 

It's good, sure, for a blaster with a bit of survivability. But to actually function as a tank, deliberately drawing enemy fire, it just doesn't cut it at later levels. Enemy damage scales too fast for non-absolute defenses to work properly.

 

Normally i would agree that Damage reduction isn't the single most important thing on tank when it comes to performing their role, CC is pretty much equal with Damage reduction when it comes to tanking.

 

However our pure tank warframe has absolutely terrible CC, so currently the tanking meta (oh god) and the way aggro works is purely based off of whomever can charge in to the fray drawing the most fire and survive the longest. Sadly, ember beats rhino right now, if not is a very close super close second as well as having the benefit of being a nuker type character (whereas rhino has nothing else to his name other then survivability).

 

Honestly, DE has done a rather shoddy job with rhino in retrospective. How he has gone through this many updates without fixing his other completely useless skills is mind boggling, and then they nerf his one useful skill without touching the totally brokenly useless other skills?

 

Sloppy.

 

I am loving your game DE, Warframe is fun, has taken some of my money and will probably take more. But this kind of thing can't happen once you leave beta. You will find people a lot less forgiving of stuff like this once your no longer in beta.

 

So fix Rhino, don't nerf Ember.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Worira

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

It's good, sure, for a blaster with a bit of survivability. But to actually function as a tank, deliberately drawing enemy fire, it just doesn't cut it at later levels. Enemy damage scales too fast for non-absolute defenses to work properly.

 

Wait a sec, I don't remember any Rhino's drawing fire skills.

[Worira]

In the sense that a core component of Rhino's playstyle involves him deliberately getting shot, rather than attempting to avoid it. That's not viable now, and it never was for Ember.

[Nicocat]

Just like Banshee used to do.

Except Ember can also walk around and beat on things with an axe while tanking and while burning everything. It's pretty nice to actually feel useful for once.

[Judgebanks]

Fun fact for all low tier players, Ember is one of the best frames available right now.

[Nicocat]

FYI, though:

Overheat will NOT save you from nasty CC and disruption S#&$.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Nicocat

[JerryMouse13]

In the sense that a core component of Rhino's playstyle involves him deliberately getting shot, rather than attempting to avoid it. That's not viable now, and it never was for Ember.

 

Still if DE has made the determination that they don't want full invulnerability in the game, the best we can do is to at least place rhino into a position to still dominate the tanking category.

[Judopunch]

How much damage is mitigated when Rino stomps.

 

Btw I just won the thread.

[JerryMouse13]

How much damage is mitigated when Rino stomps.

 

Btw I just won the thread.

 

Depends, if it's a Toxic ancient...

 

let's see here now... carry the 4....... multiply by the square root of pi... don't forget the sign change..... and finally divide it all by Avogadro's number....

 

It comes out to exactly none.

Edited May 19, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[Judopunch]

Depends, if it's a Toxic ancient...

 

let's see here now... carry the 4....... multiply by the square root of pi... don't forget the sign change..... and finally divide it all by Avogadro's number....

 

It comes out to exactly none.

Well isnt that something, its like he has just as much tankyness, and the ability to CC an entire room. You know do you think him and some kind of aoe damage dealer could combo that stuff and be awesome together?

[JerryMouse13]

Well isnt that something, its like he has just as much tankyness, and the ability to CC an entire room. You know do you think him and some kind of aoe damage dealer could combo that stuff and be awesome together?

 

Reading comprehension, do you do it? Because I think you missed the entire point.

Edited May 19, 2013 by JerryMouse13

[s4itox]

Well isnt that something, its like he has just as much tankyness, and the ability to CC an entire room. You know do you think him and some kind of aoe damage dealer could combo that stuff and be awesome together?

Yeah, he could, and so could about half the other frames, and the other frames would do it better too. Already compared to Excal's blind which requires 1/2 the energy and is twice as effective. Before, Rhino had 3 absolutely lackluster skills and a skill which allowed to him to sit on the tanking throne. Now, he just has 4 lackluster skills.

[Judopunch]

Reading comprehension, do you do it? Because I think you missed the entire point.

I think you missed the point unfortunately.

 

Hes tanky and can prevent all damage to everyone with his other ability  Doesnt that make him an amazing tank that combos well with softer damage dealers, creating an optimal team-play environment? It also takes his damage mitigation so far past 100%, because he apples it to the entire group basically.

 

Ember and he share a damage reduction skill. Her's does not come with stun immunity. His kit is vastly superior for tanking because of stomp combine with his iron skin insuring that he can mitigate vastly more damage for the entire team.

 

Each skill can not be compared in a vacuum as they all come together to form the total power of the kit. Even the base values of their health and shields were left out of the OP.

[GratuitousLurking]

Guys. Srsly. Last time I was at Xini toxic's DOT, no matter the level, was like...1 per second? Why all the flak on Rhino just because of Toxics? Considering we know he's getting his immunities back, it's not the sky falling here.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Guys. Srsly. Last time I was at Xini toxic's DOT, no matter the level, was like...1 per second? Why all the flak on Rhino just because of Toxics? Considering we know he's getting his immunities back, it's not the sky falling here.

 

Are you sure? Last time I was at Xini Toxics ate my HP like a fat kid through cookie store!

Edited May 19, 2013 by 3XT3RM1NATUS

[Judopunch]

It's just not cool. Seriously kids... "My toy broke, so i'm gonna try to break my friends toy" come on! that's childish! admit it!

 

look at this explanation of how iron skin is not underpowered next to overheat even if said overheat has a maxed out focus.

 

Here's some armor maths.

 

If you're too lazy to read it all. At least look at the numbers.

 

10/110 = 0.09

140/240 = 0.58

 

lets say you get 100 damage with ember and rhino at their base armor (10 and 140).

 

Ember resists 9.09 taking: 90.9 dmg

Rhino: resists 58.3 taking: 41.7 dmg

 

Now let's take for example with overheat at 70% and 91% (ember without max focus first, and then with max focus) and rhino's iron skin at 80% (with no focus) there are 2 ways this might hbe happening and i don't know which one DE uses.

 

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens after armor:

90.9 * 70% = 63.63 resist Ember taking 27.27/100 dmg

90.9 * 91% = 82.7 resist, Ember taking 7.3/100 dmg

41.7 * 80% = 33.36 resist Rhino taking 8.34/100 dmg

 

If calculation of abiliities damage reduction happens before armor:

30 * 0.09  = 2.7 resist Ember taking 27.3/100 dmg

9 * 0.09 = 0.81 resist Ember taking 8.2/100 dmg

20 * 0.58 = 11.6 resist Rhino taking 8.4/100 dmg

 

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It is true after all that with maxed focus Ember resists just a little bit more damage than rhino (one way or another) however; In her defense she needs a maxed focus to do this which isn't easy to get and i believe although don't know for certain; that Rhino could do the same and increase his damage resist way above Embers with it even if Rhino usually wouldn't want to have focus. However you can say the same about Rhino grabbing Steel Fiber to increase his base damage resist which is a mod Ember would pretty much never use (just like Rhino would usually not want to use Focus) and without much effort you can make rhino take less damage than ember with a max focus Overheat.

 

Ember has a lot less Shields than rhino, overheat has a shorter duration(2s) than iron skin and the final pointer. The real reason why iron skin outclasses Overheat as a defensive ability and always will. Even if it's bugged right now (shame on you DE) it is supposed to make you immune vs disables and toxic damage. Ember can get stunlocked easily with her overheat active and unless her AoE dmg kills everything she will die because of that; since without overheat she'll die very fast with that little damage reduction. Whereas rhino still has 140 armor which gives about 58% damage resistance without iron skin to HP loss (where ember only has 9%) and to top all that, without a maxed out focus Ember takes quite significant damage with overheat on.

 

Does this calm you a little bit? no more rage towards Ember? it's not like it's her fault that Rhino's iron skin got nerfed.

And besides.

 

That being said. i think Rhino's iron skin (apart from current bugs) is completely fine like it is. I play Rhino myself too and i love him just the way he is now (apart from current bugs) and i don't even use Steel Fiber, but i might start doing it now after i did the math on it.

 

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The one thing you can still argue about is that Armor doesn't apply to shields but i think the abilities do.

Rhino and Ember both have 200% Redirection and Vitality, Each have 500HP, Ember has 500 Shields and Rhino 750.

This means that with 100dmg shots their shields would drop this fast:

 

Ember/W Max Focus: 56 shots

Rhino: 38 shots

 

18 shot difference.

Meaning rhino takes 150 dmg before Ember starts dropping.

But wait... there's more.

 

Ember:18 shots

Rhino: 38 shots

 

20 shot difference.

Ember takes 546 dmg before Rhino starts dropping without relying on mods(Steel Fiber/Focus). This would usually mean that by the time Rhino

would start losing health Ember would already be dead

 

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In the end it's really just unfair that you compare Ember's overheat with a maxed out EXTREMELY RARE mod vs Rhino's ability without any mods to support  it. Stop trying to encourage DE to nerf other Warframes because your favorite was nerfed. Nobody wins if you do that. Also worth noting (even if i took no part in it, and in fact disagree) people have been complaining for a while that Ember is weak and underpowered and useless.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/46775-please-stop-picking-on-ember-because-rhino-got-nerfed/

[w00tm0ng3r]

Guys. Srsly. Last time I was at Xini toxic's DOT, no matter the level, was like...1 per second? Why all the flak on Rhino just because of Toxics? Considering we know he's getting his immunities back, it's not the sky falling here.

 

You're joking right? I've fought ancients who did 90+ damage a tick...

[Judopunch]

You're joking right? I've fought ancients who did 90+ damage a tick...

What happens when you reduce 90 by 90%.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

What happens when you reduce 90 by 90%.

 

Lol, toxins ignore armor.

[Judopunch]

Lol, toxins ignore armor.

Its not armor.... its flat damage reduction. This is the problem with you guys your uneducated.

[Deathstroke2000]

Its not armor.... its flat damage reduction. This is the problem with you guys your uneducated.

And you are very educated eh, internet tough guy ?

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Its not armor.... its flat damage reduction. This is the problem with you guys your uneducated.

I still take loads of damage during Iron Skin, how's so?

[Judopunch]

And you are very educated eh, internet tough guy ?

Im sorry, but the amount amount of uninformed bullS#&$ thats happened over the last 2 days is unacceptable. Most of it is unfounded drivle and ego stroking. I want people to think about things before they post nonsence because im getting tired of reading it.

 

What is the purpose of your post? 

 

You ignored my point because you couldnt think of anything but a personal attack? Check out this guys post record just within this topic, its useless fear-mongering horseS#&$.