Please Stop Picking On Ember Because Rhino Got Nerfed

[Blatantfool]

Please remember that Rhino's Iron Skin is still being looked at. It IS being effected by a bug that is preventing it from blocking at LEAST stagger. I've seen people mention they think Poison and Disruption are part of the bug too.

 

 In a day or two's time they may very well hotfix back in his status immunities like most people want and you'll find everything is peachy again.

[Gearb0x]

^

He mad. He so mad he forgot to bring proof to most of his arguments.

 

Out of respect for you as a fellow player i read your post, i mean you read mine after all. But i wont comment on it, i already said i'm done with replying to you since all you are trying to do is trying to get on my nerves. Luckily for me i just don't get annoyed as easily as you <3

 

(Prove it yourself that it doesn't.)

What arguments lack proof?

 

I'm not trying to get on your nerves, if I was I would attack you directly, rather than your statements.  Tell me what you're confused by or can't follow or (stricken out because those are direct attacks and I just said I wouldn't do that.) what arguments you'd like reiterated and I'll lay them out again more fully.  I can't explain things clearly to you and the audience watching us if you just state you don't understand my points and walk away from the argument you started.  

 

Accusing me of being upset by your flawed mathematics and then ignoring me does not give you the moral high ground.  It does not edify or educate.  It demonstrates willful ignorance and an unwillingness to engage critique.

 

So tell me what points you'd like proven, and I'll demonstrate what I mean.

[Rabcor]

Yes indeed, DE has stated that Rhino will be reviewed and changed. For better or worse however... i can't tell what they'll do with him.

 

The problem is, if you say "this warframe is more powerful in this field than that warframe which should be more powerful!" as your only logic to why that warframe should be buffed. There are only 3 things that can happen

 

1) Devs Ignore

2) Devs Buff

3) Devs nerf the warframe you claim should be weaker than the other one

 

And from my experience, Devs have a tendancy to lean on the 3rd option, which bothers me and why i started this topic. It's way more fun to have tons of overpowered stuff and explosions everywhere than to have everything weak and just some things less weak than others. I personally think warframes abilities should be more devastating on most warframes. It's supposed to be the most important thing in the game, the warframes that is. It wouldn't hurt to make it pack a good punch 100% of the time right?

 

It's best if all Warframes are overpowered in their own way. 

 

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Gearb0x, take a hint! i don't like your high-and-mighty attitude!

but since you asked nicely:

 

Ember takes 8.181818(repeating) damage and the Rhino takes 8 per hit

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You get the armor value wrong again.

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Prove that armor and power damage mitigation interact.

 

You didn't bring any real numbers to support those "facts" of yours. Just assumptions not any different from my original post. Now cool your head before replying to this and we just might agree on what you post next. If my armor value was wrong, which was right for example?

 

also a note:

 

 

 

Net damage on Rhino: 1110/.2+765/.08 = 15112.5 total damage before dying.

Net damage on Ember: 703/.09+740/.0818 = 16857.566 total damage before dying.

 

 

(Shields drop after X shots total)

Ember/W Max Focus: 56 shots
Rhino/W Steel Fiber: 38 shots

(They die after X shots total)

Ember: 117
Rhino: 131

 

You're claiming that this is wrong right? because i assumed that armor stacks with abilitys damage reduction right? well didn't you just assume yourself that it does not? That makes neither of us wrong, they're both theories. How i think it works is that all incoming damage is reduced by 80%, then hits you normally after being reduced by 80% and that's where the armor picks it up. Your assumption is that the armor wont pick it up and it'll go straight through the armor.

 

I'm not in the mood to prove and test it but if you can in fact prove that this was wrong, i just might see reason and change it.

Edited May 21, 2013 by rabcor

[Waagabondh]

I got them both.

 

Ember is an infested frame.

Rhino can be used everywhere.

 

Ember is very specialized vs infested so that she comes out slightly stronger there then Rhino, I think its ok.

 

Again, I dont mind as I have them both.

[Gearb0x]

Thank you, Rabcor, for pointing out points I made unsupported.  I appreciate your response and am willing to calm myself before responding.  One day you'll need to show me how you break quotes up on this board.  I attempted to interject my statements into your post but was unable to work the formating.  Anyhow, onto the points requested!

 

1) Ember takes 8.181818(repeating) damage and the Rhino takes 8 per hit.

Adopting your assumption as correct, that Armor DR and Power DR stack in a multiplicative fashion we can throw the numbers down in either direction.

  a)Ember with full Focus: 91% Power DR and 10/110 Armor DR: 100*.09000(Damage after power DR)*.90909(Damage after Armor DR) = 8.18181

  b)Rhino with full Focus: 80% Power DR and 150/250 Armor DR: 100*.20000 (Damage after power DR)*.40000(Damage after Armor DR) = 8

These numbers are actually just a more precise recalculation of your own.

 

2) You got the armor value wrong again.

Twice in your edited post you state the Rhino's armor is 140.  Once in "lets say you get 100 damage with ember and rhino at their base armor (10 and 140)." which did not affect your calculations, and once in "Whereas rhino still has 140 armor which gives about 58% damage resistance without iron skin to HP loss..." Where it did affect your calculations, since the DR for Rhino's base armor is 60% even.

 

3) Prove that armor and power damage mitigation interact.

Once I realized that your application of power and armor damage mitigation were multiplicative, I seized upon the idea to demonstrate how much longer an Ember using Overheat would last when compared to a Rhino using Iron Skin.  However, this is a theory that you made and that we both explored the ramifications thereof.  Since it is your theory, I challenged you to demonstrate it.  This may all be moot in 24 hours, but I don't believe the onus falls upon me to prove or disprove your theory.  If it remains unproven, then I need only mention that Power DR may override Armor DR to undermine any of the arguments you or I have made about the durability of either frame.

 

4)Comparison between two different experiments.

My calculations using the alternate helmets were made using your Theory of Multiplicative DRs.  They were not made using Steel Fiber, since such a calculation would have demonstrated a roughly 19k effective health on a Rhino with an alt helm and rank 6 Steel Fiber.  My repeated claims that you are wrong were regarding your views on the Rhino being still tankier than Ember.  I stand by my statement only on the foundation that Steel Fiber sucks and health damage should be avoided at all costs.  I was not calling your calculations wrong.  I was ignoring them and running my own numbers in their stead because I was too hotheaded.

 

However, being right was more important to me at that time than doing science properly.  Allow me to rectify this.

 

5) A new experiment

 

Ember with base Helm and full Focus:  740/.09+740/.081818181 = 17266.667 total damage before dying.

Rhino with base Helm and Rank 6 Steel Fiber (255/355 DR): 1110/.20+740/(.2*100/355) = 18685 Total damage before dying.

 

The Rhino has 8.21% more life than the Ember does with an actually equivalent cost Steel Fiber.  This is not a death "Long before" the Ember dies.  Killing this Ember requires a sequence of attacks that would leave our hypothetical Rhino with only (18685-17266.667 = D; D*20/355 = H) ~80 HP remaining out of 740.  The Ember dies when the Rhino is around 11% health.  That is a significant and comparable level of tankiness from a caster frame.  Presuming your Theory of Multiplicative DRs holds true.

 

All this means that the Ember is comparably tanky to the Rhino at this time.  Something that was likely not intended for either Frame.  I feel that Ember has finally hit a sweet spot of good damage / energy expenditure, and that she is finally worth playing.  I feel that the nerfbat hit Rhino too hard, and that all this math simply demonstrates how far the mighty have fallen.  Rhino players calling for an Ember nerf are mistaken and shortsighted; on that you and I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I hope I have addressed your questions, and apologize for my previous anger.

 

*edited to change one mistaken reference from Rhino to Ember.  Oops."

Edited May 21, 2013 by Gearb0x

[JerryMouse13]

This entire argument ignores the fact that you do not want to be tanking with your non-regenerating health. Taking any health damage is usually a sign that you're doing something wrong, and should get your &amp;#&#33; to cover.

 

Additionally for those of you unaware: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/47708-iron-skin-damage-mitigation-bugged/

[potatofamine]

"Nerf other warframes but not my warframe!"

[Rabcor]

...

1) Ok

 

2) noted and changed. i re-calculated everything rhino related back when i changed it, and it does state that it's 60% at least in my first calculation (60/100 dmg) if you'd be more specific about where it affected my calculations, i'll gladly confirm it.

 

3)Ok, i'll think about it.

 

4) But you did repeatedly state in the post that i was wrong. But that's ok, like i said it didn't bother me. I figure that +25 health is fairly useless, also my suggestion was based on the fact that both frames will be using vitality/redirection, but only one of them will want to use Focus, whereas it wouldn't be such a bad idea to apply steel fiber onto Rhino because after all.. what much else are you gonna do with that free slot? (Redir, Vit, Flow, Continuity, Fast Deflect, Steel Fiber) that doesn't sound bad to me, even if steel fiber isn't as effective as it should be it still does something, probably more than 25 HP.

 

5) I do agree. And i do want Rhino fixed(which DE promised he will be), but i just don't want to see Ember broken in the process.

 

If enough people complain about Ember being more powerful, devs might think "so they think ember is OP!" and nerf her aswell. And when jealousy and anger kicks in, people just want others to experience the same things as they do or their stuff being fixed.

 

As for quotes. you can use bbcode to do

[quote name="name"]Copy/paste[/quote]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/47708-iron-skin-damage-mitigation-bugged/

That is interesting.

Edited May 21, 2013 by rabcor