Parkour In Real Life<Tm> Isn't Very Useful So How Do De Get Players To Use Parkour 2.0?

[Fifield]

If you've seen parkour movies, the action sequences are always in urban environments.  Typically, there's a block of flats with minor sequences having walkways with walls and railings.  How many people actually use parkour in their every day life (outside of filming etc)?  Probably zero.

Whilst cool & fun, parkour just isn't very useful.  Likewise, in the non-vertical, unlittered landscape of Warframe, traditional parkour isn't much use either.  DE seem to have ruled out adding ziplines everywhere or redesigning maps to be less flat.  Adding excessive obstacles would probably just annoy players.

DE have decided to add Parkour to combat, which is interesting but I can't see it adding much.  Warframe as designed is about putting down half a dozen enemies in one burst.  With melee, if it wasn't so underpowered, you'd put down the same enemies in a couple of swings.
Should DE change from lots of weak enemies to fewer tougher enemies?  Personally, I'd be happy if everything didn't die in 2 bullets.

What we currently have is pseudo-parkour -- coptering, slidejumping & frontflipping.  These add to the fun of movement and help a lot getting around easy levels.  But they're also dissatisfying to some degree.

Speed disparity between players

 

For a team game, Warframe makes it awfully difficult to find players at your level.  Literally my first day of Warframe was speedrunning 20-odd T4 capture missions with my clan (double credits).  My Clan contains probably the best Copterer in Warframe and the others weren't far behind.  Me however, frustrated with coptering and barely halfway through the map

We all know soloing is much harder than going as a team.  Either DE needs to provide a way to find similarly skilled players for the content/goals you want to do, or it should think about speeding up newbies ie via sprint.


Here are the options for DE as I see them:

1. Nerf coptering et al and make Parkour 2.0 boost your speed.

There's something really cool about flying long distances through the air both for that player and for other players observing.  If coptering was to be nerfed, I'd like to see it nerfed through stamina loss.  You'd still be able to copter every 30s or so.

Coptering should also make some sort of sense eg minijets on a warframe.

DE were talking about "normalising" coptering ie making all jumps the same distance regardless of weapon, warframe, speed mods so that level designers could design 'obstacle course' type sections around it.

As for making Parkour 2.0 boost your speed, wallrunning already does this, but the effect is so insignificant few would notice.  Perhaps Parkour 2.0 should give a temporary sprint speed boost?

If overall speed is reduced by > 25%, expect rage threads.

2. Redesign maps to include obstacles

The notion of creating maps so awkward that you need parkour to move around sounds like a terrible concept to me.  I still don't like the Orokin slow pit and why the hell would they have that in their ship anyway?  Maybe I'd like a better designed obstacle?  I suspect a lot of players won't like this.  It might be better to have an obstacle-course-type optional mission.

3. Rewarding Parkour-related kills.  

We get more damage for shooting whilst wallrunning, but we don't get better drops.  We should.  Same for headshots etc.  Reward skill and ninja-play not exploits.

Lastly, the way people play Warframe is organic and unpredictable.  Parkour 2.0 will need a lot of testing and a lot of tweaking post-release.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

2) Was about to say it would be a necessary change to Terrain.

Guess I dont need too. Moving on lol

[(XBOX)Aflem1]

@ Fifield

 

Why not help train the players, so every one will "be at the same level"?

[nmuaddib]

1. For what I understood, you don't know how to copter and so you want it nerfed... not nice...

2. Are you kidding? More obstacles? The maps are, today, a litter box of things that make mobility a nightmare, since every thing in the actual system brings you to a halt, unless you fly over it. Not sure I understood what you mean with this...

3.This is actually a good idea.

Edited June 2, 2015 by nmuaddib

[Thalahssalyst]

DE, steve, say they are going to remove coptering, and he say why.
About Parkour is my favorite sport and i do it every day, everywhere.
About OP, a nice adition in game too, its able the player shoot while running... :3

[nmuaddib]

DE, steve, say they are going to remove coptering, and he say why.

 

Care to share? I did not see the last devstream.

[FelisImpurrator]

@ Fifield

 

Why not help train the players, so every one will "be at the same level"?

Because not everyone considers it a mark of skill - or a necessity - to be constantly zooming through a level, GOTTAGOFAST to the max? Coptering is only a thing because of the underlying problem of regular movement being slow and boring.

 

1. For what I understood, you don't know how to copter and so you want it nerfed... not nice...

2. Are you kidding? More obstacles? The maps are, today, a litter box of things that make mobility a nightmare, since every thing in the actual system brings you to a halt, unless you fly over it. Not sure I understood what you mean with this...

3.This is actually a good idea.

1. Incorrect - DE has talked about nerfing copter for several devstreams now, apparently, because people are rocketing through their carefully crafted tilesets like LOLSANIC to the exclusion of basically all other tactics (except camping for hours, of course)... and the reason this is happening is because every other form of movement in the game besides coptering is clunky, slow, and dull, and yet coptering exists as a cheap alternative that works several times better. I'd like to be able to get around without being forced to mash Jump+E and run at the speed of sound constantly.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Parkour 2.0 should start by buffing all warframes' base run speed by the same value across the board in addition to 'normalizing' copter/directional melee distance to minimize frustration. Directional melee having fixed distance also helps for the purposes of actually attacking with it.

 

2. OP wants better obstacles because yes, the current ones are crap (hello, ridiculous Orokin ice floors). Which I completely agree with.

 

3. Skill kills increasing things like drop rates or providing other substantial bonuses is great, agreed.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

1. For what I understood, you don't know how to copter and so you want it nerfed... not nice...

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that this is a DOOM thread issue, but really, why would they change "coptering" at all?  Because some people complained about it?  Really?  I understand that it was not an intended feature and they have just left it in the game, but it's not a bad thing.  They spoke in Devstream 53 about limiting the distance.  That's a really bad idea.  It's limited now.

 

I know that the developers are determined to change it.  Hopefully the feedback after they change it will get them to reverse the decision.

 

It's remarkable how their first attempt at Parkour 2.0 was not viable in Warframe because there are no maps with long straight walls and corners to parkour around.  It also appears that they are having problems getting Parkour 2.0 to work on XBONE with the controller limitations.  No surprise there.

Edited June 2, 2015 by (XB1)Zoltan6201

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

Because not everyone considers it a mark of skill - or a necessity - to be constantly zooming through a level, GOTTAGOFAST to the max? Coptering is only a thing because of the underlying problem of regular movement being slow and boring.

 

1. Incorrect - DE has talked about nerfing copter for several devstreams now, apparently, because people are rocketing through their carefully crafted tilesets like LOLSANIC to the exclusion of basically all other tactics (except camping for hours, of course)... and the reason this is happening is because every other form of movement in the game besides coptering is clunky, slow, and dull, and yet coptering exists as a cheap alternative that works several times better. I'd like to be able to get around without being forced to mash Jump+E and run at the speed of sound constantly.

 

Maybe if they told us the reason why they are trying to get rid of "coptering",  then the players might understand.  I have not seen that yet and I seriously doubt that it's because people are "coptering" through levels.  

 

In Devstream 53 they did talk about how stamina limits movement and they're not happy about people feathering sprinting in order to move faster when their stamina runs out.  

[Adumu]

I'm personally all for coptering's removal, because frankly I find it silly. That is, of course, just my opinion of it. The issue I see with coptering is that it's a glitch that we found, but so many people use it knowingly that it's become an integral part of Warframe despite never being intended.

 

The issue isn't really that "we don't need coptering removed" so much as it is "if coptering is removed, our movement will be slow and clunkier." from what I've figured here.

 

So really, DE just needs to fix our movement so that we can get around at reasonable speeds without coptering and then either remove it, change it to be less of a mobility tool and more of a combat tool like it was meant to be, or maybe even just leave it as is. But first we need our mobility to be fixed, before we even need to look at coptering as anything more than a neat little glitch.

[Thalahssalyst]

Maybe if they told us the reason why they are trying to get rid of "coptering",  then the players might understand.  I have not seen that yet and I seriously doubt that it's because people are "coptering" through levels.  

 

In Devstream 53 they did talk about how stamina limits movement and they're not happy about people feathering sprinting in order to move faster when their stamina runs out.  

They have say many many many many times, why coptering its going to be tweaked, changed, speed and distance reduce, if they are doing all of this work on parkour, how it works, how its supposed to work, is not for someone to come, and do something easir and more fast, and less skillsfull because its "better".

Coptering ever was a problem, just they never give attention to it and make a Fix, right now they are working on that, and steve say when first DEMO of parkour was in twitch, how and why coptering its going to change, what is the purpose of that.

 

 

I'm not saying that this is a DOOM thread issue, but really, why would they change "coptering" at all?  Because some people complained about it?  Really?  I understand that it was not an intended feature and they have just left it in the game, but it's not a bad thing.  They spoke in Devstream 53 about limiting the distance.  That's a really bad idea.  It's limited now.

 

I know that the developers are determined to change it.  Hopefully the feedback after they change it will get them to reverse the decision.

 

It's remarkable how their first attempt at Parkour 2.0 was not viable in Warframe because there are no maps with long straight walls and corners to parkour around.  It also appears that they are having problems getting Parkour 2.0 to work on XBONE with the controller limitations.  No surprise there.

 

Is not because some people complain about it, i want to clear some aspects about that bug and how it destroy some things in player base.

People dont choose the melee because his damage is good, it looks good, because with this melee i can kill enemies lvl...

Its because player ignore all other stuff, for one thing, coptering.

Why i have to try something with a Glaive fully modded if the coptering is not working? Maybe with a tipedo i better, and i choose Glaive, jisus, the comparation in movement because a melee its a BIG PROBLEM when we talk about "balance between players choice".

Of course there are different tastes, like players with Soma P and Boltor P, but in terms of choice, and if we make comparations, that weapons work like its supposed to work.

Now, take this, Put 2 lokis, one with scindo prime fully modded or not, and loki with typedo, modded or not, make a comparation in mobility and why coptering its bad, if coptering its supposed to be something "intended" it need to be balanced in all aspects, and all weapons.

Why i have to run when i can copter 1000m/ph?

Why i have to manage the stamina with mods for running when i can copter and ignore all other mechanics?

Why i have to explore the map to become good and fast in that when i can swing my weapons and cover half of the map?

I dont see DE working really hard for parkour 2.0, and because a little portion of people they let in game coptering, and ignore all other mechanics about mobement and "skill" required to play and learn about that.

First of all, we all know "coptering is bug" and need to be fixed.

It's not because a majority can't adjust. People act like it's really difficult to pull off when it isn't. But it completely takes away the point in having different mobility options.

 

 

Care to share? I did not see the last devstream.

Watch the Devstream again, and try to understand what Steve say.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

 

I dont see DE working really hard for parkour 2.0, and because a little portion of people they let in game coptering, and ignore all other mechanics about mobement and "skill" required to play and learn about that.

First of all, we all know "coptering is bug" and need to be fixed.

It's not because a majority can't adjust. People act like it's really difficult to pull off when it isn't. But it completely takes away the point in having different mobility options.

 

 

Watch the Devstream again, and try to understand what Steve say.

 

I could hardly understand what you wrote.  It's not a flame, just a fact.

 

I watched the devstream.  I didn't understand why they are limiting the distance of "coptering".  I understand that they do not like it.  I understand that it was never intended to be included.  So, the mechanics of aerial melee are dependant on which weapon you use.  They can fix that.  

 

I honestly do not believe that they can create a parkour-like movement system with the limitations of the xbone controller.

 

The movement works now.  We do not need double jump.

 

Movement has always been a problem in multiplayer games like MMOs.  If you give the players the ability to jump, they end up jumping all over the place, even if their movement really isn't enhanced.

 

Unfortunately, trying to convince anyone of an opinion opposing the view that they already have is near impossible.

 

We will see what happens, but I, for one, like Warframe as it is now.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

 

The issue isn't really that "we don't need coptering removed" so much as it is "if coptering is removed, our movement will be slow and clunkier." from what I've figured here.

 

So really, DE just needs to fix our movement so that we can get around at reasonable speeds without coptering and then either remove it, change it to be less of a mobility tool and more of a combat tool like it was meant to be, or maybe even just leave it as is. But first we need our mobility to be fixed, before we even need to look at coptering as anything more than a neat little glitch.

 

The truth is that they're not likely to fix movement because they have warframes that move at different speed like rhino versus zephyr.

 

Personally, I like the ability to get to places on the map where they want you to go.  If they limit the distance of melee jumps, they'll really break the game.  Maybe they should adjust the maps and make places reachable with the restricted copter distance?  

[(PSN)GoggleHead1]

I like the concept of parkour. But I also like our current movement system. Yea it could stand for a tweaking or an adjustment here or there, but overall I like it.

[Thalahssalyst]

I could hardly understand what you wrote.  It's not a flame, just a fact.

 

I watched the devstream.  I didn't understand why they are limiting the distance of "coptering".  I understand that they do not like it.  I understand that it was never intended to be included.  So, the mechanics of aerial melee are dependant on which weapon you use.  They can fix that.  

 

I honestly do not believe that they can create a parkour-like movement system with the limitations of the xbone controller.

 

The movement works now.  We do not need double jump.

 

Movement has always been a problem in multiplayer games like MMOs.  If you give the players the ability to jump, they end up jumping all over the place, even if their movement really isn't enhanced.

 

Unfortunately, trying to convince anyone of an opinion opposing the view that they already have is near impossible.

 

We will see what happens, but I, for one, like Warframe as it is now.

Coptering speed and distance will change, for the problem that is happening.

The point is not to convince someone to think what you want, the point is not everyone see the problem with mechanics in game.

The movement dont work now, because you are not moving, you are doing slide in the air, and air atacks, and that is what let you move, the weapon, no the warframe, that is not parkour, and talking about parkour, why i have to parkour when i have coptering/directional melee, the problem comes for that people who choose different melee weapons that dont let you move, and the point is not "make a different tier of weapons because mobility".

The point is in general about mobility and melee weapons, just the people dont understand when we talk about "parkour, and coptering".

Mobility depends on how fast your melee can swing, and not in how fast you can move... (?)

We need doble jumps, not aerial atacks that let you cover a big distance, and let the enemie alive.

 

[(PSN)GoggleHead1]

Coptering speed and distance will change, for the problem that is happening.

The point is not to convince someone to think what you want, the point is not everyone see the problem with mechanics in game.

The movement dont work now, because you are not moving, you are doing slide in the air, and air atacks, and that is what let you move, the weapon, no the warframe, that is not parkour, and talking about parkour, why i have to parkour when i have coptering/directional melee, the problem comes for that people who choose different melee weapons that dont let you move, and the point is not "make a different tier of weapons because mobility".

The point is in general about mobility and melee weapons, just the people dont understand when we talk about "parkour, and coptering".

Mobility depends on how fast your melee can swing, and not in how fast you can move... (?)

We need doble jumps, not aerial atacks that let you cover a big distance, and let the enemie alive.

True enough. I like the double jump idea.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

S

 

Coptering speed and distance will change, for the problem that is happening.
The point is not to convince someone to think what you want, the point is not everyone see the problem with mechanics in game.
The movement dont work now, because you are not moving, you are doing slide in the air, and air atacks, and that is what let you move, the weapon, no the warframe, that is not parkour, and talking about parkour, why i have to parkour when i have coptering/directional melee, the problem comes for that people who choose different melee weapons that dont let you move, and the point is not "make a different tier of weapons because mobility".
The point is in general about mobility and melee weapons, just the people dont understand when we talk about "parkour, and coptering".
Mobility depends on how fast your melee can swing, and not in how fast you can move... (?)
We need doble jumps, not aerial atacks that let you cover a big distance, and let the enemie alive.
 

 

So, the problem is that you copter and don't kill an enemy at the end?  I don't think that they're going to change that.

 

They have stated many times that melee jump was an unintended bug, but they left it in the game because they saw the merits in it.

 

They may be able to make Warframe more parkour-like.   They may not.  Time will tell.  The fact is that there is mobility in the game without coptering.  You can jump and move better than most games that I have played.  If they limit the distance of melee jumping, it may limit the ability to get to places on the map that they want you to go. Personally, I don't want to have to use a double jump to get there.

 

The question is whether you like the ability to get to places using the current game mechanics, or whether you hate people who copter in pvp.

 

Personally, I hate PVP.  I like to be able to get to high places.  I never use the glaive or glaive prime.  It's just a personal preference.

[Feallike]

Coptering is being nerfed or removed. That is going to happen, nothing is going to change that. You can confirm this by watching dev streams.

 

I really hope they redesign the tilsets to be better for coptering, or design Parkour 2.0 to be successful on the tilesets already.

 

 

Obviously DE was going to nerf coptering when they came out with aerial melee. Coptering defeats the purpose of wall running, aerial melee, and zip lines in general. The DE has stated that it is a broken concept since it defeats the purpose of Parkour 2.0 in general.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Feallike

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Player is abusing a known or unknown ingame EXPLOIT.........

 

It has always been an option to report suspecting players of cheating on Xbox.

 

 

 

 

Guess what people, DE says youre abusing an EXPLOIT......

 

 

Would you like to be BANNED for using an EXPLOIT??

or

Would you rather DE fix a BUG??????

Coptering = EXPLOIT = DE needs to fix.

[Fifield]

Because not everyone considers it a mark of skill

 

I think coptering is skilful.  But DE have said they're changing it, presumably because they want us to move using Parkour 2.0 -- which will never be able to provide the speed that coptering does.

If so, I'd just like them to reduce the frequency it can be used so that we're encouraged to use wall-running et al in between.

Maybe Parkour 2.0 will be so awesome that I won't care if DE eliminate coptering.  Who knows.

 

2. OP wants better obstacles because yes, the current ones are crap (hello, ridiculous Orokin ice floors). Which I completely agree with.

 

I know some people struggle to read but I want to both keep coptering and not introduce a ton of obstacles.

DE talked about a room where you'd have to make a sequence of equally-sized jumps.  That's OK if we're spending 15 mins in a mission but not so great if we're speedrunning it.

I'd like a game where we weren't compelled to speedrun but one thing at a time.

 

3. Skill kills increasing things like drop rates or providing other substantial bonuses is great, agreed.

 

Yes, some other guy came up with this idea but I haven't been able to find the thread recently.

I also suggested rewarding multiple weapon use.

[FelisImpurrator]

I think coptering is skilful.  But DE have said they're changing it, presumably because they want us to move using Parkour 2.0 -- which will never be able to provide the speed that coptering does.

If so, I'd just like them to reduce the frequency it can be used so that we're encouraged to use wall-running et al in between.

Maybe Parkour 2.0 will be so awesome that I won't care if DE eliminate coptering.  Who knows.

 

 

I know some people struggle to read but I want to both keep coptering and not introduce a ton of obstacles.

DE talked about a room where you'd have to make a sequence of equally-sized jumps.  That's OK if we're spending 15 mins in a mission but not so great if we're speedrunning it.

I'd like a game where we weren't compelled to speedrun but one thing at a time.

 

 

Yes, some other guy came up with this idea but I haven't been able to find the thread recently.

I also suggested rewarding multiple weapon use.

Honestly, I just hate speedrunning. I could learn to keep up with GOTTAGOFAST, but I don't want to because it's horribly boring. "A game where we're not compelled to speedrun" is arguably more important than Parkour 2.0 alone, and should at least be concurrent.

Edited June 2, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

Player is abusing a known or unknown ingame EXPLOIT.........

 

It has always been an option to report suspecting players of cheating on Xbox.

 

 

 

 

Guess what people, DE says youre abusing an EXPLOIT......

 

 

Would you like to be BANNED for using an EXPLOIT??

or

Would you rather DE fix a BUG??????

Coptering = EXPLOIT = DE needs to fix.

 

They have not said that it is an exploit.

 

They said that it was a bug (or feature in Microsoft terminology) that they intentionally left in the game.  All it is is aerial melee.  You hit A and then B.

 

Banned?  Really.  It's not cheating.  You're way off on that.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

I'm personally all for coptering's removal, because frankly I find it silly. 

 

Have you ever wanted to get to a higher place in the game?  Did you wish there was a way to get there?  Well, it actually exists.  Hit A and then B. 

 

I don't care if they disable that feature on the ground, but nothing is cast in stone.  They are trying to do Parkour 2.0, but if you look at destream 52 and 5, they admit that it's difficult, if not impossible with the xbone controller.

 

If you think that what they have discussed about building momentum and speed with a limit on the velocity sounds good, then that's fine.

 

If you cannot wait to see a limit on the distance that "coptering" will go, then that's fine as well. 

 

They have announced that "coptering" is not going away.  It's being nerfed like the synoid gammacore.  

 

I'm not optimistic that what they come up with will be a good change.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

They have not said that it is an exploit.

 

They said that it was a bug (or feature in Microsoft terminology) that they intentionally left in the game.  All it is is aerial melee.  You hit A and then B.

 

Banned?  Really.  It's not cheating.  You're way off on that.

You didnt read what I wrote. Or you didnt understand.........

I did say BUG. Also, DE said its a known bug that is being exploited for movement.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

You didnt read what I wrote. Or you didnt understand.........

I did say BUG. Also, DE said its a known bug that is being exploited for movement.

 

Your point was that it's a form of cheating.

 

I disagree.

 

Good luck complaining to M$ about it.

 

I never heard them say "abusing".  

 

I did hear them say that they "know about it and intentionally left it in the game because they know how people are using it".