More Sophisticated Elemental System

[Emotitron]

Somewhere along the line fire/ice in games started down a silly path and have remained there.

 

I would love to see (and why not in this game first) Fire/Cold treated and cumulative and opposites.

 

Rather than an toggle where if hit by a cold round an enemy instantly is moving in slow motion and covered in ice... or hit by a fire round and they are instantly on fire, create a system where all creatures (and players) have a core temperature variable. Every cold round, lowers the creatures temp - every hot round raises it.

 

- As they get colder they would get slower (until eventually with enough hits they freeze and can shatter)

 

- As they take more heat damage they 'flinch' longer with each hit until they finally combust and are left screaming with their health dropping (and likely inflicting fire damage on nearby friends/enemies). They could possibly even explode when they reach very high temps.

 

- Damage taken could be increased if they were already heated and then start taking cold hits - or vice versa - opening the door for interactions between hot and cold and more advanced teamplay tactics. The greater the disparity in temperature the more damage inflicted.

 

- Weapons would not be able to have both hot and cold mods at the same time, as that makes no sense (yet it seems to be common in video games).

 

- Creatures could not be both frozen and on fire at the same time. Again, makes no sense - but is very common in games.

[MetalGerbil]

what happens when your mission converts to infested and you modded for something else?

what about when your teammates spec differently?

its a simple system because it needs to be. nobody wants to see their slowed ancient "heat up" because another guy basicly did the right thing but counters your strategy.

you can easily get into situations where people do the right thing but still screw each other over.

games are gamey. go figure. some things are just better simple. K.I.S.S.

[BearlyKoalified]

That is a rather interesting idea and I actually like it, it does make sense that weapons should only have one elemental mod. Though, what about Shock? Since at the moment your idea would lead to only having Fire or Ice, I'm guessing Shock Roungs would eventually stun the target?

 

Don't get me wrong it's a good idea and would be interesting if it was implemented, I think it needs a little more work though such as some expamples of the temperature and at what limits the effects start to happen etc.

[Emotitron]

The other advantage would be that getting above rank 1 into a frost mod would have meaning. Currently people often don't bother to upgrade cold mods because they are just going for the instant crowd control.

 

It would also be able to create some interesting environmental interactions. Hot environments working against cold. Cold environments working against heat rounds. Wet environments could amplify electrical damage.
 

That is a rather interesting idea and I actually like it, it does make sense that weapons should only have one elemental mod. Though, what about Shock? Since at the moment your idea would lead to only having Fire or Ice, I'm guessing Shock Roungs would eventually stun the target?

 

Don't get me wrong it's a good idea and would be interesting if it was implemented, I think it needs a little more work though such as some expamples of the temperature and at what limits the effects start to happen etc.

This would only apply to hot and cold as they are opposites. Electrical shock seems like it should be instant, much like a tazer. I suppose with enough electrical hits a target could become supercharged and start shooting lightning from it at anything nearby.

I would also like to see the game start thinking about resistances, as it would avoid some of the issues they are currently having. Rhino, Rollerballs and Ancient Disruptors all have becomes issues because there is no proper system for handing stun/drain/knockdown resistances. If enemies start getting elemental weapons (which they should really) it could open the doors for more customization and modding.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Emotitron

[dragonboss]

Intriguing idea, but in order for it to work to the players advantage and not be counter-productive like the MetalGerbil says, the value should not be affected by multiple elements at once, the same way it is now, so that an enemy can be electrocuted, frozen and on fire at the same time.

That is, player A with Fire shoots, enemy heats up from value X to combustion,

           player B with Freeze shoots, enemy cools from value X to freezing,

           player C with Shock shoots and enemy is stunned from value X or something, dunno how that one should work : /

 

Maybe value X is shock chance?

Edited May 20, 2013 by dragonboss

[Emotitron]

Intriguing idea, but in order for it to work to the players advantage and not be counter-productive like the MetalGerbil says, the value should not be affected by multiple elements at once, the same way it is now, so that an enemy can be electrocuted, frozen and on fire at the same time.

That is, player A with Fire shoots, enemy heats up from value X to combustion,

           player B with Freeze shoots, enemy cools from value X to freezing,

           player C with Shock shoots and enemy is stunned from value X or something, dunno how that one should work : /

 

Maybe value X is shock chance?

 

I see shock as separate as it isn't related to temp. It could however be related to water (and wet environments could be added down the road). Cold I could see though diminishing poison effects (as the creatures blood would also be moving in slow motion).

Hitting a creature alternatively with hot and cold rounds (as in two players hitting it with opposite mods) wouldn't result in as much damage as first heating/cooling it and then reversing - or superheating/cooling it. Players would quickly learn to pay attention to what other players are shooting. They also could arm their primary and secondary as opposites so they can switch as needed to get the bonus damage of 'freezer-burning' a boss or high HP mob that isn't going to combust or freeze.

More than anything else though, I would just like to see the silly "burning frozen dude" removed from gaming in general. It treats elements as unrelated variables and diminishes the visceral quality of elemental damage.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Emotitron

[dragonboss]

I see shock as separate as it isn't related to temp. It could however be related to water (and wet environments could be added down the road). Cold I could see though diminishing poison effects (as the creatures blood would also be moving in slow motion).

Hitting a creature alternatively with hot and cold rounds (as in two players hitting it with opposite mods) wouldn't result in as much damage as first heating/cooling it and then reversing - or superheating/cooling it. Players would quickly learn to pay attention to what other players are shooting. They also could arm their primary and secondary as opposites so they can switch as needed to get the bonus damage of 'freezer-burning' a boss or high HP mob that isn't going to combust or freeze.

More than anything else though, I would just like to see the silly "burning frozen dude" removed from gaming in general. It treats elements as unrelated variables and diminishes the visceral quality of elemental damage.

Seems legit, but I could see the element counteraction aspect get trolled by certain players who intentionally will go freeze or unfreeze an enemy type or boss to adverse effect for the team. Yeah, the burning frozen guy is quite unrealistic, but hey, still a game right?

[Emotitron]

Seems legit, but I could see the element counteraction aspect get trolled by certain players who intentionally will go freeze or unfreeze an enemy type or boss to adverse effect for the team. Yeah, the burning frozen guy is quite unrealistic, but hey, still a game right?

 

It would be a pretty work intensive way to troll someone though. Also trying to build a team game where they are afraid to let player skills interact because of trolling is a bad way to go. Better to just allow people tools for blocking trolls.

I would find it way more cool to REALLY be freezing or cooking a guy to death than what it is now. Right now we have dudes on fire, frozen, stunned and electrocuted all at the same time. They just spaz out and are all mis-colored. Would be way cooler to power down a heavy mob (currently the game lacks really heavy enemies other than bosses and that should change) and see him gradually get slower and slower and frostier and frostier until he finally shatters.

Different mobs could also have different resistance to temp changes, so light mobs could freeze or catch fire much quicker than say bosses or heavies.

[KuramaKitsune]

possibly change FIRE to ACID, 

leaves the compatibility with COLD and also dont interfere with SHOCK 

 

i can see a frozen figure melting away covered in acid

Edited May 20, 2013 by KuramaKitsune

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I like freezing people on fire though. Having fun > Logic.

[Argoms]

I like freezing people on fire though. Having fun > Logic.

I don't.

 

Depth > novelty

[Tsukinoki]

And if you join a pug boss run as say Ember and the pug has a Frost than that means one of you are going to be sitting there using NO skills on the boss afraid that you'll just counteract the effects of the others skills on the boss.

In order for this to work you would need a lot more communication between everyone and it wouldn't work in pugs where one person is fully fire modded and other is fully ice modded.  Against the tougher enemies they would just be counteracting each other and leading to not much happening.

While this system would work great for players who know each other and have ways of communicating and setting things up I just dont see this working well with pugs at all.  And all it would take is a troll that has his rifle modded for fire and his sidearm for ice and he just counteracts everything done to all of the tough enemies by switching to the right weapon.

[Argoms]

If everyone is so worried about trolls, we will never get mechanics that allow for any sort of teamwork. Guess what? Trolls are actually a minority, even in pugs. They will always exist, but trying to make your game completely troll-proof just leads to more creative trolls and sacrifices fun for everyone else. 

[Tsukinoki]

@Argoms
Im not worried about trolls all that much, just bringing it up because it *will* happen.

What I am more concerned of is pugs would start having major failures because guess what, they usually dont/CANT communicate enough to get things like this properly organized and working.  That will lead to far too many cries that elements are broken and things like that.

Unless you are just going to force the expectation that you put fire on your rifle and ice or your pistol, or vice versa, and never change your elements away from that to ensure that you can work in random groups well enough without too much of a risk of conteracting what your team members are doing.

Like I said: this would work well in cases where people can communicate and talk things over and plan.  A pug has none of those.

[Fleischkloppa]

Shock should imo be counter-shield.The Effect should be that as long as the shock effect remains on the target, the shields cant recharge, going up to the level where the shields are completely destroyed(Only after long shock fire).

[Argoms]

@Argoms

Im not worried about trolls all that much, just bringing it up because it *will* happen.

What I am more concerned of is pugs would start having major failures because guess what, they usually dont/CANT communicate enough to get things like this properly organized and working.  That will lead to far too many cries that elements are broken and things like that.

Unless you are just going to force the expectation that you put fire on your rifle and ice or your pistol, or vice versa, and never change your elements away from that to ensure that you can work in random groups well enough without too much of a risk of conteracting what your team members are doing.

Like I said: this would work well in cases where people can communicate and talk things over and plan.  A pug has none of those.

You can troll with anything. At least this "troll" is also damaging the enemy and potentially killing them while "trolling".

 

If you don't want to deal with fire and ice, then you can use AP/electric, or just normal damage. Unless both your primary and secondary (and melee?) are all the same element, you shouldn't run into many problems.

[Tsukinoki]

@Argoms
So you join a pug with ice equipped to everything because you couldn't find other elemental mods (which I have only recently got a fire mod for my shotgun).  I use ice on everything because it slows them to a crawl make them much eaiser to deal with and possible to avoid damage.

Now I have to hope that my team mates wont be using fire weapons otherwise the one benefit of my load out is completely stripped away and I am forced into melee combat and the AP mod that is on my melee weapon to not invalidate their strategy.

And even if our weapons have different elemental types PUGs DONT talk enough to go "I'll hit the ancient with fire to kill it faster" and have no one use ice on it.  What will happen is you start to use fire on it and someone, not knowing what you're doing, uses ice to try to slow it down.

Without the communication inside of the group this level of complexity wont work out nicely and will just lead to fire and ice being much weaker because without meaning too people are going to counteract their biggest effects.  In a game where you can have random people party up without any real methods of communicating enforced, overly complex systems wont work for those groups.

[Argoms]

If we said fire/ice only applied to the status effect, and not actual damage, multiple people focusing fire on a heavy enemy is going to kill them in a few seconds anyway.

[Tsukinoki]

@Argoms
And arguably removing the status effect removes one of their biggest bonuses.

Cold slows enemies to a crawl.  Fire causes organics to flail around and being a target that doesn't pose any danger to anyone.

With a system like this it would remove those two rather big benefits.  Especially the CC ability of cold if one of your random team mates happens to be an ember.

[Argoms]

@Argoms

And arguably removing the status effect removes one of their biggest bonuses.

Cold slows enemies to a crawl.  Fire causes organics to flail around and being a target that doesn't pose any danger to anyone.

With a system like this it would remove those two rather big benefits.  Especially the CC ability of cold if one of your random team mates happens to be an ember.

It'd also add the benefits of being able to have more extremes of these effects that don't get applied instantly regardless of how much damage is done.

 

Why does a single shotgun pellet drastically slow a heavy gunner? How can a single, weak pistol round set an entire person on fire instantly by hitting them in the foot? The current effects don't scale with weapon damage at all, and the current system favors high rof, low-damage weapons for no apparent reason.

[Tsukinoki]

@Argoms
What you're describing can also be easily handled by having damage thresholds of say 100 cold damage to slow down a lancer significantly from cold damage without having to link the fire and cold damage together.