Excalibur Rework : Press "e" To Win

[TheBrsrkr]

Because it's special and limited distance. And is a power wielded by a warframe with a legendary name that wields mystical blades.

Would you prefer some falloff damage when going through cover/walls, but not flesh/enemies?

And Amprex and Atomos with ruminous extension can achieve some amazing results though with half the damage of main beam, it's still great and on par with Exalted Blade.

The "limited distance"you speak of is 40m, which is 10m farther where most gun based combat takes place. Why is a sword based frame doing so much damage at so fast a rate, at that distance, without using his sword?

Reduce the range to 25m and give it 3m or so of punch through, so that we still have to actually use the sword instead of spinning around in circles and mash E, which is exactly what I see most Excaliburs doing nowadays.

The Atomos and Amprex are both excellent weapons, that do a lot of damage but also have LIMITATIONS. Exalted Blade does not. It has high damage, speed, range, efficiency, a noticeable layer of protection and no LoS checks. It is simply ridiculous.

[Jinryusai]

None more ridiculous than many other 4 powers of the damaging nature which kill faster.

 

Who cares if t's distance is farther, the waves are sow. So you don't reduce range since you have to lead shots much like the Supra.

 

You add fall off damage after some punchthrough.

[TheBrsrkr]

None more ridiculous than many other 4 powers of the damaging nature which kill faster.

Who cares if t's distance is farther, the waves are sow. So you don't reduce range since you have to lead shots much like the Supra.

You add fall off damage after some punchthrough.

So because the ridiculous things are ridiculous, Excalibur has to follow them? This is begging for nerfs, and then everyone gets together to whine why everyone wants nerfs. The reason powers like Miasma or Blade storm are so powerful is because back then, energy was scarce and efficiency was at the most 50% including arcanes. If you managed to get 100 energy, you deserve to kill everyone in the room. Nowadays energy drops like credits and efficiency is capped at 75%, which damage frames can hit easily since it doesn't reduce strength. Do we want the new generation of frames to be as unbalanced as the old ones? I say no.

[Jinryusai]

Then go back n nerf the old ones since they are in need of it and come back to excal.

 

The @Meta@ is Mesa nerf eh? Well, time to focus on her now.

 

it would take long before he gets any possible nerf much like Miasma.

 

In the end, the devs feel the players need to feel powerful so might as well get use to EB.

 

Falloff damage is the only possible nerf. There is no need more any other. And those with syndicate mods have earned the right to use radial damage.

[TheBrsrkr]

Then go back n nerf the old ones since they are in need of it and come back to excal.

The @Meta@ is Mesa nerf eh? Well, time to focus on her now.

it would take long before he gets any possible nerf much like Miasma.

In the end, the devs feel the players need to feel powerful so might as well get use to EB.

Falloff damage is the only possible nerf. There is no need more any other. And those with syndicate mods have earned the right to use radial damage.

Yes, go back and nerf each one. Right. That's going to take several months, and by that time everyone will be used to infinite punch through 40m not-sword. Then when Excalibur's turn rolls around, and everyone's going to scream exactly as much as they do now, except even harder. Why waste all that time, money and effort when it can be changed right now, everyone can get used to the new waves which really aren't so bad (do you absolutely NEED infinite punch through AND a 40m range?)and DE can move on to the next project quickly and easily. Every frame should be judged on their own merits and shortcomings. Saying EB doesn't need a nerf because Mesa is better says nothing about Excalibur and everything about Mesa. Pointless.

Those with syndicate mods deserve to have stupidly high damage? Do me a favor: go to the trade chat, and type "WTB justice blades/Bright purity/Entropy Flight/Blades of Truth/Gleaming Blight/Toxic Blight 20p PM me". Tell me how many PMs you get, and tell me if that is your idea of "deserving the damage".

[Jinryusai]

Nope, that post didn't say anything about not needing to nerf due to mesa. Can't imagine where you saw that...

 

Do you need to nerf range?

 

Why bother with nerfs right now when they can move onto other frames. That is their logic. A logic they always follow seeing as mesa is untouched.

 

Do suppose they are playing the wait n see game.

 

Plat holders deserve power :)

[RafaelFuchs]

Isn't it worth it to try and limit the amount of those "Press <key> to win!" scenarios?

you overly simplify things by using these 'terms' and it's quite insulting to the gameplay of excalibur and shows you're either trolling or have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. a real "press [key] to win" scenario is mesa's 4th and saryn's 4th (hold LMB and 4 respectively). they fully disconnect you from other ingame mechanics (mesa more than saryn) that make the game more interesting. at least with saryn you have the potential to require a lot of movement to effectively utilize the damage. ash is on the same level with mesa to be honest. you press 4 and watch a cutscene of you stabbing everything it targets (up to 18).

[TheBrsrkr]

Nope, that post didn't say anything about not needing to nerf due to mesa. Can't imagine where you saw that...

Do you need to nerf range?

Why bother with nerfs right now when they can move onto other frames. That is their logic. A logic they always follow seeing as mesa is untouched.

Do suppose they are playing the wait n see game.

Plat holders deserve power :)

I said every frame should be changed or not changed by what characteristics define them, didn't I? Mesa shouldn't be nerfed because EB is weaker, and EB shouldn't be left alone because Peacemaker is stronger. Peacemaker should be nerfed because it supports player inactivity, trivializes content, rewards players for doing very little and prevents anyone else from playing with Mesa at the same time. EB should be nerfed because 40m of infinite punch through and massive damage trivializes content, turns Excalibur into a one trick pony, discourages the use of any other abilities, rewards players for doing very little and is entirely inconsistent with the swordsman theme Excalibur is meant to fulfil.

[RafaelFuchs]

I said every frame should be changed or not changed by what characteristics define them, didn't I? Mesa shouldn't be nerfed because EB is weaker, and EB shouldn't be left alone because Peacemaker is stronger. Peacemaker should be nerfed because it supports player inactivity, trivializes content, rewards players for doing very little and prevents anyone else from playing with Mesa at the same time. EB should be nerfed because 40m of infinite punch through and massive damage trivializes content, turns Excalibur into a one trick pony, discourages the use of any other abilities, rewards players for doing very little and is entirely inconsistent with the swordsman theme Excalibur is meant to fulfil.

should we nerf weapons that trivialize gameplay too? soma p, boltor p, aprex, dread, paris P and tonkor are just a few i can think of right away. they deal substantial damage very quickly and make content too easy. we should nerf those too. what about players who played over 1000h and collected all the mods? they trivialize gameplay with their max builds. we should nerf those players and those mods they use. they trivialize the game. 

 

you got the idea, but you lack the direction of why we should change something. 

[ThePresident777]

Strong enemies trivialize weak Tenno.  Nerf the enemies!   Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!..............

[_FrostPrime_]

It's one thing to give him a useful ability, it's another for him to use it and nothing else.  It's like Valkyrs who're permanently in Hysteria, except Excal has a ranged attack, both get kinda boring as it means any other type of game play is kind of obsolete.

 

Do they even need guns any more?

 

Do you even use Excalibur properly?

 

EVERYTHING he has works in tandem. Radial Javelin being the only exception, provided you do not have it augmented. Exalted Blade is merely his bread and butter. Everything else can be used in combination, with, or without it. He's perfectly fine as he is now.

[TheBrsrkr]

-snip-

The Soma Prime needs to be aimed, depends on its crits to do any sort of damage (which means non-crits are useless), depends on raw damage which falls off much harder than status and has a hell of a reload time. The only thing that needs a nerf is the extra ammo efficiency.

Boltor Prime is non hits can, needs to be aimed, depends on raw damage without crits, etc. etc. Does a bit too much damage, but the real problem is the low mastery lock on it.

Paris Prime is nowhere near OP with it's low rate of fire, single target nature that doesn't help when 8 or so heavies are heading towards you. You're being ridiculous. Same with Dread.

The Amprex has, what, the second worst ammo efficiency in the game? If you want to use it without spamming ammo restores literally every minute you need to sacrifice your AURA. Even with the chains, it's range is rather short unless you sacrifice more damage for it, then you burn even more ammo later trying to kill enemies. Totally OP.

The Tonkor is a high risk, high reward weapon, Mich like the bows. You only get massive damage when you actually hit something. That being said, the damage is a little too massive for an AoE like that, and could maybe see a nerf.

Firstly, great derail. Secondly, as I said before, they would each be changed on their own merits and shortcomings, and not based on what X does and Y doesn't.

Playing for +1000 hours doesn't give you the right to break the game. Nothing should. Come up with a reason not to change Excalibur that has to do with Excalibur, I'd love to hear it.

@ThePresident777:

Thank you for your meaningless comment. Now post something stupid about 4 Tenno devastating a massive army so we can all tear it down again.

Edited July 5, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Jinryusai]

I said every frame should be changed or not changed by what characteristics define them, didn't I? Mesa shouldn't be nerfed because EB is weaker, and EB shouldn't be left alone because Peacemaker is stronger. Peacemaker should be nerfed because it supports player inactivity, trivializes content, rewards players for doing very little and prevents anyone else from playing with Mesa at the same time. EB should be nerfed because 40m of infinite punch through and massive damage trivializes content, turns Excalibur into a one trick pony, discourages the use of any other abilities, rewards players for doing very little and is entirely inconsistent with the swordsman theme Excalibur is meant to fulfil.

If you don't want to bleed to death or get shot in the back, you best blind(you still take some damage when blocking anyway). If you want to be invulnerable and cut down enemies plus move quick, you best use Slash Dash.

 

Javelin would be that lost cause, I suppose.

 

Don't think the 40m is an issue anyway, the punchthrough would be that only issue a few people here are fed up with. So I propose falloff damage for it.

[Jinryusai]

The Soma Prime needs to be aimed, depends on its crits to do any sort of damage (which means non-crits are useless), depends on raw damage which falls off much harder than status and has a hell of a reload time. The only thing that needs a nerf is the extra ammo efficiency.

Boltor Prime is non hits can, needs to be aimed, depends on raw damage without crits, etc. etc. Does a bit too much damage, but the real problem is the low mastery lock on it.

Paris Prime is nowhere near OP with it's low rate of fire, single target nature that doesn't help when 8 or so heavies are heading towards you. You're being ridiculous. Same with Dread.

The Amprex has, what, the second worst ammo efficiency in the game? If you want to use it without spamming ammo restores literally every minute you need to sacrifice your AURA. Even with the chains, it's range is rather short unless you sacrifice more damage for it, then you burn even more ammo later trying to kill enemies. Totally OP.

The Tonkor is a high risk, high reward weapon, Mich like the bows. You only get massive damage when you actually hit something. That being said, the damage is a little too massive for an AoE like that, and could maybe see a nerf.

Firstly, great derail. Secondly, as I said before, they would each be changed on their own merits and shortcomings, and not based on what X does and Y doesn't.

Playing for +1000 hours doesn't give you the right to break the game. Nothing should. Come up with a reason not to change Excalibur that has to do with Excalibur, I'd love to hear it.

@ThePresident777:

Thank you for your meaningless comment. Now post something stupid about 4 Tenno devastating a massive army so we can all tear it down again.

Seem to use Amprex fine even with low ammo

Aiming isn't an issue for point in spray guns especially with punchthrough mods...

Both EB and gun require aim except flamethrower and when mirage holds them, there goes aiming.

[ShawnV2]

It's people like you that ruin games for everyone else.

See how that works? Neither person here learned anything, nothing got resolved, all you did is show that you're angry and try to make the other person as angry as you. How about some constructive feedback instead?

 

I really don't care. You people have ruined excal for me. I really can't stand playing him anymore. I've already gave my feedback, but you guys are all set on ruining him. So what's the point? NO worries though, ill play another frame till all this bs controversy and is over.

Edited July 5, 2015 by ShawnV2

[RafaelFuchs]

The Soma Prime needs to be aimed, depends on its crits to do any sort of damage (which means non-crits are useless), depends on raw damage which falls off much harder than status and has a hell of a reload time. The only thing that needs a nerf is the extra ammo efficiency.

Boltor Prime is non hits can, needs to be aimed, depends on raw damage without crits, etc. etc. Does a bit too much damage, but the real problem is the low mastery lock on it.

Paris Prime is nowhere near OP with it's low rate of fire, single target nature that doesn't help when 8 or so heavies are heading towards you. You're being ridiculous. Same with Dread.

The Amprex has, what, the second worst ammo efficiency in the game? If you want to use it without spamming ammo restores literally every minute you need to sacrifice your AURA. Even with the chains, it's range is rather short unless you sacrifice more damage for it, then you burn even more ammo later trying to kill enemies. Totally OP.

The Tonkor is a high risk, high reward weapon, Mich like the bows. You only get massive damage when you actually hit something. That being said, the damage is a little too massive for an AoE like that, and could maybe see a nerf.

Firstly, great derail. Secondly, as I said before, they would each be changed on their own merits and shortcomings, and not based on what X does and Y doesn't.

Playing for +1000 hours doesn't give you the right to break the game. Nothing should. Come up with a reason not to change Excalibur that has to do with Excalibur, I'd love to hear it.

@ThePresident777:

Thank you for your meaningless comment. Now post something stupid about 4 Tenno devastating a massive army so we can all tear it down again.

see, the thing was that it did pertain to excal. you have to aim to deal damage. the waves are slow moving as well. i used those specific weapons for a reason. the soma requires aim; the boltor is a projectile weapon that requires aim; the tonkor hits like a truck, is a slow projectile speed weapon and requires aim; the bows require aim and are projectile. lastly, these all are dependant on raw damage. you can easily boost damage in a number of ways too. ever seen a mirage with a tonkor? it is a literal carpet bomb that destroys everything which requires very little aim. the point is these are weapons which are not locked to just excal and can be comboed to make vastly stronger attacks. ever seen a banshee with a soma? that's a walking death sentence. 

 

you're overly simplifying things and seem to accept that everyone who will ever own excal will automatically know, not only how to build him and own all those mods, but play him to his highest potential. that's some serious optimism. you're alluding to this slippery slope fallacy that's just not true. not every player suddenly becomes a god when they press their #4 with excal and not every god tier player plays excal. 

 

this is a bit off topic, but why shouldn't a player who has dumped over 1000h of their life into a game be powerful? that's like saying anyone who has played some game is forever stuck on the equal max potential level of someone who just downloaded the game. there is no sense of progression at that point and you kill any incentive to do/try new things in that game. 

[TheBrsrkr]

@Jinryusai

1st post:

It really shouldn't be passing through doors, walls and cover. The punch through has to be limited, since no one wants LoS checks for the waves (not even me). This had to be the only game where you can swipe a sword at a box or wall and kill everyone behind it, while you can still use it as cover.

Falloff would be a good idea if it didn't do so much damage. A fully modded Jaw Sword with Syndicate mod can do about 60k damage per wave. 20% of that is still 12k damage, which is still more than enough damage to 1 shot a lvl40 heavy gunner, I believe. The syndicate procs every minute or so don't help either. So exactly how much falloff are we talking here?

2nd post:

"Aiming" does not mean "point in the general direction of". That's all you have to do with EB. Point and hit E. At least with the Amprex, there is a drawback to this method, even if it can be bypassed by skilled play. EB has no such drawbacks, you can just swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and do massive damage to all enemies in a 40m range. That's not okay. You don't even have to use the actual sword.

Edited July 5, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Volinus7]

"Exalted blade damages nullifier field"

You ask why?

Imagine you fight lvl70+ enemies with nullifier and you need to drop your exalted blade to shoot the bubble,

you are dead sir they can one hit kill you not to mention there's other enemies in the bubble if you try to walk into the bubble.

On the early day of release it even pierce the field/globe and kill nullifier/eximus, they nerf if already.

"Exalted blade proc syndicates mods"

You don't know the mechanics behind this ability. Yes mods on melee weapon affect it and

your melee weapon stats and properties like stun rate on normal melee(stance involved) critDmg critChance finisherBaseDmg procRate

and everything affect it as well.

Exalted blade doesn't give you a new sword it buffs the properties of your current melee weapon but the animation is misleading

It shows you that your melee weapon is not in use when the exalted blade is up.

[TheBrsrkr]

see, the thing was that it did pertain to excal. you have to aim to deal damage. the waves are slow moving as well. i used those specific weapons for a reason. the soma requires aim; the boltor is a projectile weapon that requires aim; the tonkor hits like a truck, is a slow projectile speed weapon and requires aim; the bows require aim and are projectile. lastly, these all are dependant on raw damage. you can easily boost damage in a number of ways too. ever seen a mirage with a tonkor? it is a literal carpet bomb that destroys everything which requires very little aim. the point is these are weapons which are not locked to just excal and can be comboed to make vastly stronger attacks. ever seen a banshee with a soma? that's a walking death sentence.

you're overly simplifying things and seem to accept that everyone who will ever own excal will automatically know, not only how to build him and own all those mods, but play him to his highest potential. that's some serious optimism. you're alluding to this slippery slope fallacy that's just not true. not every player suddenly becomes a god when they press their #4 with excal and not every god tier player plays excal.

this is a bit off topic, but why shouldn't a player who has dumped over 1000h of their life into a game be powerful? that's like saying anyone who has played some game is forever stuck on the equal max potential level of someone who just downloaded the game. there is no sense of progression at that point and you kill any incentive to do/try new things in that game.

As I said in the above post, aiming does not mean pointing in the general direction. If you do that With the Boltor/Soma Prime, you will waste quite a lot of ammo. You do that with the Paris Prime/Dread, you will miss and have to spend time drawing a new one. Even if you hit, you wasted the accuracy bows utilize to deal multiplied damage on weak spots. You try that with the Tonkor, you won't hot anything and the shot might get shot itself, which may force you to rocket jump.

If you try that with Exalted blade, however, you will hit, since it passes through both cover and walls, it will continue on to possibly hit other enemies you weren't even aware of, and it does so much damage that whatever you hit is either dead or near death, for 40m. Does that sound balanced to you, keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a swordsman?

You think you need corrupted mods to make this good? I haven't even potatoed my Boltace, and using nothing but a maxed Intensify and Status build melee mods (Pressure Point, Sundering Strike, 90% cold and toxin mods) I ripped through a round of Kiste with my lvl 27 Excal. I didn't even have efficiency. I didn't have max power. I had my max duration with stretch build on. I used Radial Blind once. My shields dropped 3 times for the entire mission, all 3 consoles done. Should I be able to do this? No! It wasn't even full power (lvl 30 Excalibur has 200 more damage I believe ) and I simply steamrolled one of the hardest nodes in the star chart, with one damage mod and four melee mods.

A new player will not have 680 health and shields, but a new player also wouldn't be facing down lvl 30 enemies. The thing is, they would still be doing that massive damage, through everything, simply slashing away. Combos? Tactics? Other weapons? Why do that when E,E,E,E kills everything I am vaguely aware of at the moment? It's a pointless argument. None of this even matters! Is your argument "only veterans can deal 60k+ damage, so it's okay?" 60k damage with infinite punch through at a 40m range, no matter how slow it is, is not okay.

Older players should be more powerful than new players, but that doesn't mean you should break the game for them. Being more powerful does not mean being stupidly overpowered.

[Jinryusai]

@Jinryusai

1st post:

It really shouldn't be passing through doors, walls and cover. The punch through has to be limited, since no one wants LoS checks for the waves (not even me). This had to be the only game where you can swipe a sword at a box or wall and kill everyone behind it, while you can still use it as cover.

Falloff would be a good idea if it didn't do so much damage. A fully modded Jaw Sword with Syndicate mod can do about 60k damage per wave. 20% of that is still 12k damage, which is still more than enough damage to 1 shot a lvl40 heavy gunner, I believe. The syndicate procs every minute or so don't help either. So exactly how much falloff are we talking here?

2nd post:

"Aiming" does not mean "point in the general direction of". That's all you have to do with EB. Point and hit E. At least with the Amprex, there is a drawback to this method, even if it can be bypassed by skilled play. EB has no such drawbacks, you can just swing and swing and swing and swing and swing and do massive damage to all enemies in a 40m range. That's not okay. You don't even have to use the actual sword.

But, I can still kill pretty fast a a point n spray gun or beam through beam requires aim.

 

None the less, even if they do nerf him, I can use Mirage to not aim at all :)

 

Falloff depends, really.

 

A blade that shoots waves much like Zelda isn't so bad, anyway.

 

Falloff is the answer to all woes 

)

 

You can use your imagination to fid how how much less damage is done.

Older players should be more powerful than new players, but that doesn't mean you should break the game for them. Being more powerful does not mean being stupidly overpowered.

That's How the devs like it. They seem to go back n forth here. One new thing is crazy powerful while another is trash like the Simulor.

 

This seems to be the only thread right now hating on it's power. Seems only a few agree, the rest don't care unless they get pissed off by an Excal.

 

And with that, the devs won't care.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Jinryusai

[ThePresident777]

The OP makes no sense because it complains about Excal being OP when the core of warframe is about being OP.  It's true even though the pope can't deal with it:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

[Jinryusai]

The OP makes no sense because it complains about Excal being OP when the core of warframe is about being OP.  It's true even though the pope can't deal with it:

The man who designs these powers said himself that he like making thing overpowered, but not always.

 

Excal seems to be in the right place as his name sake.

[_FrostPrime_]

Rather than nerf Excal down.

 

We should use him as leverage to buff other frames up.

 

His fun to use now. Let him keep his new found glory.

 

But that punch through needs to be fix.

 

DE already is using him as a tiny bit of leverage. It seems the new standard for self and team-wide buffs will be 30 seconds, if the Roar and Accelerant buffs are anything to go off of.

 

It's halfway through the year, and we're only now starting to see what DE wanted for the Year of Quality. And it's looking good, so far.

[tzaeru]

you overly simplify things by using these 'terms' and it's quite insulting to the gameplay of excalibur and shows you're either trolling or have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. a real "press [key] to win" scenario is mesa's 4th and saryn's 4th (hold LMB and 4 respectively). they fully disconnect you from other ingame mechanics (mesa more than saryn) that make the game more interesting. at least with saryn you have the potential to require a lot of movement to effectively utilize the damage. ash is on the same level with mesa to be honest. you press 4 and watch a cutscene of you stabbing everything it targets (up to 18).

And you, my friend, are missing the context. I was simply answering to someone's notation that "there will always be press <something> to win".

So that any further reader isn't going to miss the context as badly, here's what I said: "Isn't it worth it to try and limit the amount of those "Press <key> to win!" scenarios?", and here's what I was saying it to: "Excal is fine.  There is always press something to win."

This forum really would benefit from nested quotes.

 

Anyway. You guys really need to try and hold down the "you're a troll"/"you have no idea what you talking about"/etc without even bothering to actually read what the person in question wrote and without bothering to look into the context it was written in. That, if anything, is insulting and trolly behaviour.

And for the billionth time (because obviously reading a thread would be too much!), whether Saryn's or Mesa's abilitites are overpowered or not, has absolutely nothing to do with Exalted Blade. You can have three things wrong or right and the third isn't less wrong or right because of the other two.

[taiiat]

i guess i can't really disagree. i'm not hugely sure it's a problem, but i can't say this isn't true.

At lower levels he will tear through enemies with ease, but at the higher levels Exalted Blade really starts to drop-off.

while not as high of a 'Rate of Fire', Energy Waves (let alone the Energy Sword itself) can expect to be hitting for ~5000 each, without any extra bonuses.

significantly higher if other bonuses the Warframe itself has, let alone synergy with other Players.

so about as effective as Soma. just doesn't hit as often.

accepting Elementals makes the Damage capability explode since you can always have the Corrosive / Radiation / Viral / Blast / whatever Damage Type is currently the most effective.