A Concern If Prestige Only Shifts Polarities

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Yes, I know that prestige isn't in yet and that the devs may or may not have already resolved this, but this is just a concern that results from what the devs have suggested so far.

 

Prestige allows for late-game expansion and specialization in the way desired by the player by allowing the player to select polarities.  My concern here is that it doesn't benefit you for the vast majority of the duration.  Let's say I have a rank 30 Burston that I want to prestige (I do).  I prestige it and set one of its slots to V so I can more effectively use Multishot on it.  The problem is that for the majority of the progression cycle, I won't feel any more powerful.  Polarities impact the rank 30 performance of a weapon much more than the road there so you won't actually feel any improvement in your weapon until the upper 20's when you can start adding in those extra mod levels that are now available.

 

As a result, when you prestige, you won't actually feel like you've done that much for the majority of the time.  Sure, you are getting more powerful, but more importantly, you won't feel like it, or at least I wouldn't expect you to.  As such, it seems like people would endlessly pursue prestiging longing to polarize every last slot and then stand at the top or realize the amount of work involved and note the majority of your time will be spent with sub-par weapons.  Quite frankly, it would probably be more fun to not prestige on average for the duration and given the huge time investments required, you could be done with the game by then anyways.

 

As such I feel like the player ought to actually be able to permanently increase base stats every time they prestige.  It needn't be by much, but it should be enough that you're better for prestiging at around rank 24 rather than rank 28.  Perhaps just a 10-20% boost to any stat on the weapon that you choose.  Or, as I've suggested before, perhaps you consume all or maybe just one depending on which would work out better for balance of the mods currently equipped to the object to imbue the weapon permanently with a fraction of the stats from that mod.  If I were to imbue my Burston with my maxed multishot mod, let's say it would permanently give my Burston 18% multishot (20% of the effect of the total mod strength).

 

This would give the player some feeling of immediate improvement and would encourage users to actually use the system by reducing the amount of time for which a player is gimped by prestiging.

[ELREYULTIMO]

I think you are picking up on the whole prestige tradeoff dilemma. Do I keep my powerful weapon now, or temporarily give up all of my gains in favor of future power? My understanding is that this dilemma is half the fun of a prestige system in the first place.

Edit: not that your idea isn't cool, I just wouldn't hold my breath.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ELREYULTIMO

[fatalis92]

Thats a good idea, and if the prestige sistem let you polarize every slot, who spends time to polarize all the slot would be simply Op, like all the elemental damage mods maxed out on a weapon (plus the damage/armor pen)? I dont think is the DE's intenction, we will see.

Edited May 22, 2013 by fatalis92

[Hezekiah]

I agree, that changing the polarities is a nice benefit to the prestige system, but that a base increase in stats should also be a factor that is thrown in.  I have a handful of level 30 weapons all awaiting the arrival of prestige, but very few of them are actually maxed out with the mods I have applied.  Certainly adding a polarity slot for my split chamber would enable me to add another elemental damage card, and that is nice, much appreciated, but really it isn't all that phenomenal of an increase.

 

Now if they do not do a base stat increase then what about unlocking skins that can be purchased after gaining a prestige level, or weapon skin BP's that need a certain prestige to unlock which would alter or increase the base stats of a weapon in the same manner tied to frame helmets.  

 

That method would certainly get the scindo owners to max out the scindo to get the scythe skin, which could potentially increase swing speed by 20% while reducing damage by 5%.  But treat the entire thing like mastery levels and weapon unlocks.

[eStecko]

Yup, this is one of the concerns i have too. Easy solution would be adding prestige bar, which would be enabled after you prestiged for 1 time, your rank would stay the same you would have to "level" the prestige bar to gain another prestige rank up. Obviously the size of this bar would be something ~1-30 rank and it may go higher for each prestige level. If the idea of this would be end game implementation with some areas that are seriously hard and your all 30 maxed gear would not be able enough to make it trough... Meybe.

Edited May 22, 2013 by eStecko

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I think you are picking up on the whole prestige tradeoff dilemma. Do I keep my powerful weapon now, or temporarily give up all of my gains in favor of future power? My understanding is that this dilemma is half the fun of a prestige system in the first place.

Edit: not that your idea isn't cool, I just wouldn't hold my breath.

 

 

You get a more powerful weapon, but you only get to use that power if you keep it at higher levels so it seems that for the majority of the duration afterwards, you actually make the game less fun while only providing a slight increase in power for it.  That to me doesn't seem like a good tradeoff.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Shion963]

IMHO Prestiging is to give some longevity to a favorite weapon.

 

IIRC stat increases were mentioned with the 'dojo labs' that allows folks to research upgrades for a weapon, and increase its damage/firerate and give it a small skin changes like the Vandal treatment.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

IMHO Prestiging is to give some longevity to a favorite weapon.

 

IIRC stat increases were mentioned with the 'dojo labs' that allows folks to research upgrades for a weapon, and increase its damage/firerate and give it a small skin changes like the Vandal treatment.

I don't recall this at all.  Was this in the most recent livestream?

[Hyginos]

Allowing a weapon to be indefinitely prestiged would essentially be potatoing it the long way, so I don't think that will happen. You won't see more than 3 or so extra polarization adding levels, or you are essentially letting people put 120 points worth of mods on their guns.

[Argoms]

I like the idea of using weapon experience instead of actual weapon levels (if this is possible). It takes 400,000 experience to go from 1 to 30, so if your weapon has say, 800,000 exp, a prestige still keeps it at level 30.

 

I'm not actually sure if past 400k exp is stored on weapons though. It's in player stats, but individual weapons may not save the number.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Allowing a weapon to be indefinitely prestiged would essentially be potatoing it the long way, so I don't think that will happen. You won't see more than 3 or so extra polarization adding levels, or you are essentially letting people put 120 points worth of mods on their guns.

Though I don't recall it specifically, others have said that the devs seem to indicated that they do intend to allow you to polarize all 8 slots.

 

And what's wrong with 120 slots if someone is that invested in a weapon?

[Argoms]

And what's wrong with 120 slots if someone is that invested in a weapon?

I'd think it'd do odd things to the balancing of weapons that don't have polarities compared to those that do. 

 

If DE plans to balance mods for the value of taking up a slot along with point costs (with certain outliers that use a lot of points), I could see this working pretty well. 

Edited May 22, 2013 by Argoms

[Shion963]

I don't recall this at all.  Was this in the most recent livestream?

Scott mentions it as a possible way in using the dojo to research weapons.

 

(and by god there needs to be transcripts of the Livestreams)

Edited May 22, 2013 by Shion963

[Artaban]

There will be mods past rare. Maybe in the epic or legendary class or something.

 

The prestige system would be needed to have enough points to equip them. The true limitation is the 8 slot count for weapons.

[TGPhoenix]

I completely disagree with the OP on the point that it will make the game less fun to get the opportunity to still be productively making yourself better, quite possibly getting more mastery points along the way, while not having to cart around those weapons that we all hate (burston, etc). I see the prestige system as a way to give the game productive longevity to those players on the high end that truly have no purpose to playing anymore right now and also happens to let all players re-use their favorite weapons over again to make them better. Calling for more buffs through the prestige system would only make the balance between prestiged and non-prestiged weapons even worse than it will be with polarity switching. This will require players to fully prestige a weapon to get maximum potential/keep up with end game content which has to be at least somewhat balanced to the max potential of the weaponry available. If it can be done, it will be by some players and the highest lvl content has to be balanced to that point. With it being only polarity based, the current mod system will only require prestiging 4-6 times in order to have 8 maxed out mods on something, what the OP is calling for will require prestiging all 8 times even though the last few would only functionally give the stat boost since you can max mods several prestiges earlier. I think people should be happy that we are getting a prestige system at all and see how it goes before calling for massive changes to it, especially ones that would only make DE's job of game balance HARDER, not easier.

 

Players that want their reward to be more immediately felt aren't thinking about how much that is going to affect the overall picture. You are asking for the game to be even more grinding based to get to the best/most fun content in the game.

[Lane]

Makes sense.

If they were to implement a Prestige System with polarities as rewards they might as well let players increase Mod slots and the number of Mods that they can carry (say from 8 to 10 for weapons and 10 to 12 for frames).

I mean halving the Mod costs doesn't make much of a difference if I have only 8 slots after all. I would end up having some 10 or 20 free slots that I can't use since I have 8 Mods installed.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Pull

[Dawg]

My only concern is that we get Exp for re levelling again, with the current system there is a max amount of exp you can have due to limited weapon/warframes.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'd think it'd do odd things to the balancing of weapons that don't have polarities compared to those that do. 

 

If DE plans to balance mods for the value of taking up a slot along with point costs (with certain outliers that use a lot of points), I could see this working pretty well. 

There's a thread on this.  I don't think this issue is actually relevant to the OP and its discussion though which is why I didn't address it.  Anyways, here's the thread:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48465-only-1-best-weapon-per-type-will-prestige-for-weapons-ruin-variety/

 

 

 

I completely disagree with the OP on the point that it will make the game less fun to get the opportunity to still be productively making yourself better, quite possibly getting more mastery points along the way, while not having to cart around those weapons that we all hate (burston, etc). I see the prestige system as a way to give the game productive longevity to those players on the high end that truly have no purpose to playing anymore right now and also happens to let all players re-use their favorite weapons over again to make them better. Calling for more buffs through the prestige system would only make the balance between prestiged and non-prestiged weapons even worse than it will be with polarity switching. This will require players to fully prestige a weapon to get maximum potential/keep up with end game content which has to be at least somewhat balanced to the max potential of the weaponry available. If it can be done, it will be by some players and the highest lvl content has to be balanced to that point. With it being only polarity based, the current mod system will only require prestiging 4-6 times in order to have 8 maxed out mods on something, what the OP is calling for will require prestiging all 8 times even though the last few would only functionally give the stat boost since you can max mods several prestiges earlier. I think people should be happy that we are getting a prestige system at all and see how it goes before calling for massive changes to it, especially ones that would only make DE's job of game balance HARDER, not easier.

 

Players that want their reward to be more immediately felt aren't thinking about how much that is going to affect the overall picture. You are asking for the game to be even more grinding based to get to the best/most fun content in the game.

 

I am actually thinking about the big picture here.  I'm not offering a perfect suggestion, I'm just offering a suggestion.  The fact is, players will experience a major drop in power upon prestiging and they won't overcome that until the upper ranks (probably around 27-28), so for all the time until then, the player has been having less fun.  The process repeats identically for the second prestige.  They won't feel the power bump until later, so in each case, you need to use the weapon for a very extended period afterwards because otherwise, on average, how fun that object was to use has decreased.  Sure, after 6 prestiges, you'll be peaked out at max power and every time you shoot the weapon after that is "profit," but until then you'll spend most of your time at a power level less than what you've had previously which I don't think would be good for keeping players around.

 

And honestly, I'm not opposed to a prestige cap.  I'm just stating what the devs have apparently said so my suggestion requires no more grinding than polarity changes.  End-game content will be balanced around the assumption that players have prestiged to the max anyways.  That won't change anything with my suggestion.  Prestige just lengthens the grind to maximum power, but I don't see this as a pleasant grind which is why I made the suggestion in the OP.  Ultimately, prestiging will not be the end-game content that keeps players around for ages.  That'll probably be related to clans.  Prestiging just increases the theoretical power cap via a grind.  I don't believe the grind will be a pleasant one which would likely drive away players.  The suggestion in the OP was to come up with a way to make that grind more pleasant, to make it so that players can recover their former power so that they don't have as much "power debt" by the end.

 

Regarding worsening balance between prestiged and non-prestiged equipment, that's going to happen anyways and will be a major difference.  Widening something that will be necessary to access end-game content anyways won't negatively impact anything.

 

I am happy about DE trying to add in a stop-gap system to WF to keep players around and allow longer-term power growth.  The problem is that it is exactly that: a stop-gap.  Prestiging is ultimately just another grind in an already very grindy game and I don't think it will be a fun one if it's just polarity shifting.  If there is no increase in efficacy a Prestige 5 Rank 1 weapon and a Prestige 0 Rank 1 weapon, IMO, players won't enjoy the grind. Hence my suggestion.  The grind that is prestige is coming.  The question is, how fun it will be.  Right now, I question that because I see a "power debt" being created by this grind.

 

Edited May 22, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Shion963]

My only concern is that we get Exp for re levelling again, with the current system there is a max amount of exp you can have due to limited weapon/warframes.

 

I don't think they'll change this. Because then a plain Hek that has no polarity slots gets 8 chances to Prestige, giving 3000xp each time. That's 18000xp~24000xp for each weapon and warframe. And you'll have to max rank a weapon 6 to 8 times, and each warframe 3~4 times to squeeze all the mastery out of it.

 

Most probable way to increase mastery cap is just more new weapons :/

[Excitonex]

When the idea of restarting your rank to 0 first came about it was called prestiging because it was a challenge that few undertook. You were showing how BA you were having sunk all the time to level something more than once. I don't feel like I'd be earning any prestige while blowing everything away with my max modded gun.

[ELREYULTIMO]

You get a more powerful weapon, but you only get to use that power if you keep it at higher levels so it seems that for the majority of the duration afterwards, you actually make the game less fun while only providing a slight increase in power for it.  That to me doesn't seem like a good tradeoff.

I hear you (read you?), but just such a system has proven quite successful in other games (CoD anyone?) without offering much more than flair and bragging rights. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some instant upgrades like those suggested, but I imagine that may detract from the desire to obtain new weapons. Why build anything new (other than for mastery, I guess) when my uber-weapon is just begging for its 5th prestige?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

When the idea of restarting your rank to 0 first came about it was called prestiging because it was a challenge that few undertook. You were showing how BA you were having sunk all the time to level something more than once. I don't feel like I'd be earning any prestige while blowing everything away with my max modded gun.

 

 

Except that by prestiging, in the long run, you become more powerful which means that end-game content will be based around you, rather than someone who didn't which means that it can't be a prestigious thing because it becomes a requirement to advance through the game.

 

I also really doubt that the devs would even call it prestiging.  It's just that they and we've been calling it that because it is a prestige-like system in that you go back to zero but with some change.

 

I hear you (read you?), but just such a system has proven quite successful in other games (CoD anyone?) without offering much more than flair and bragging rights. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some instant upgrades like those suggested, but I imagine that may detract from the desire to obtain new weapons. Why build anything new (other than for mastery, I guess) when my uber-weapon is just begging for its 5th prestige?

 

But that's a PvP game which is a bit different whereas this would actually involve increasing the power of the object.  Doing something for flair and doing something for power are two very different motivations.

 

As for detracting from getting multiple weapons, that's an issue with prestiging in general in this game and I don't know how to solve it.  That problem will be present whether or not my suggestions are enacted.  Yes, they would make it a bit worse, but going from 120 slots to 0 slots is going to be a sufficient enough deterrent to prevent it in most cases anyways.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Enot83]

Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like you're saying getting weapons back to their higher ranks is difficult and time consuming.  I have not once found this to be the case, if you know what you're doing to accomplish this.  Which, arguably is exactly why you would be doing something like this..

 

In short leveling equipment is a breeze.  If you decide to do it inefficiently that is your choice, but doesn't mean that a change is required.

 

Again, this seems so simple and easy I feel I must be missing something... how there are complaints of having to re-level weapons when its ridiculously easy as is just baffles me.

[Excitonex]

 

 

 

Except that by prestiging, in the long run, you become more powerful which means that end-game content will be based around you, rather than someone who didn't which means that it can't be a prestigious thing because it becomes a requirement to advance through the game.

 

I also really doubt that the devs would even call it prestiging.  It's just that they and we've been calling it that because it is a prestige-like system in that you go back to zero but with some change.

 

 

But that's a PvP game which is a bit different whereas this would actually involve increasing the power of the object.  Doing something for flair and doing something for power are two very different motivations.

 

As for detracting from getting multiple weapons, that's an issue with prestiging in general in this game and I don't know how to solve it.  That problem will be present whether or not my suggestions are enacted.  Yes, they would make it a bit worse, but going from 120 slots to 0 slots is going to be a sufficient enough deterrent to prevent it in most cases anyways.

 

So why does this mean that we should let people continue all prestige-ranks with a rank 30 weapon? It would feel like my weapon is progressing more when I'm adding mods every couple ranks between prestige-ranks rather than just adding a polarity slot every time my weapon gets enough affinity to hit 30 again.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

So why does this mean that we should let people continue all prestige-ranks with a rank 30 weapon? It would feel like my weapon is progressing more when I'm adding mods every couple ranks between prestige-ranks rather than just adding a polarity slot every time my weapon gets enough affinity to hit 30 again.

Would you really want to burn all those credits to re-mod from the ground up every time you prestige?

 

 

 

Maybe I've missed something, but it sounds like you're saying getting weapons back to their higher ranks is difficult and time consuming.  I have not once found this to be the case, if you know what you're doing to accomplish this.  Which, arguably is exactly why you would be doing something like this..

 

In short leveling equipment is a breeze.  If you decide to do it inefficiently that is your choice, but doesn't mean that a change is required.

 

Again, this seems so simple and easy I feel I must be missing something... how there are complaints of having to re-level weapons when its ridiculously easy as is just baffles me.

 

Yes, it's easy, but it's still a time consumption in which the player isn't having as much fun as before (or at least, I don't enjoy playing Xini with unranked items nearly as much as rank 30 items).

Edited May 22, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz