Dear Devs: The Current Dojo System Is Making You Lose A Lot Of Potential Profit (Solution For Big Vs. Small Clan Included)

[BramBlackmon]

Or, you could join a larger clan. I'm pretty antisocial and misanthropic, but I'm currently leading a clan with 270+ members, and it is going smashingly, even If I don't know half of the people there.

 

Because let's just assume for a minute, that they did implement this. For every room in the dojo you want to access, you have to drop a forma in the bucket. Let's say that you only really want access to 5 rooms, and your Clan architects built the dojo so that you could access those 5 rooms without spending extra forma.

 

Now let's take a clan of my size, 270. and multiply that by 5. that means in order for minimal access, the clan would have to purchase a total of 1,350 forma. let's multiply that by the amount of plat each forma costs to see how much platinum is involved. 27,000 is the number I came up with.  now if we divide this by platinum packs. The most obvious choice for getting all that forma is the 10 dollar platinum pack. so that's 10*270= 2,700 in U.S. currency.

 

that's for a small clan. 270 is small in this game. for a clan this size of outlaw star, or broframe. they're easily breaking the 10k mark. that's not 10k you spend because you enjoy the game. that's not 10k spent to buy colors or alt helmets or slots or any of that good S#&$. That's 10k you have to pay just to be able to have a functioning dojo.

 

I will never accuse DE of trying to pinch the customer again, because you've thoroughly highlighted just how badly they can screw with us if they so choose.

[Luxangel7]

Or, you could join a larger clan. I'm pretty antisocial and misanthropic, but I'm currently leading a clan with 270+ members, and it is going smashingly, even If I don't know half of the people there.

 

Because let's just assume for a minute, that they did implement this. For every room in the dojo you want to access, you have to drop a forma in the bucket. Let's say that you only really want access to 5 rooms, and your Clan architects built the dojo so that you could access those 5 rooms without spending extra forma.

 

Now let's take a clan of my size, 270. and multiply that by 5. that means in order for minimal access, the clan would have to purchase a total of 1,350 forma. let's multiply that by the amount of plat each forma costs to see how much platinum is involved. 27,000 is the number I came up with.  now if we divide this by platinum packs. The most obvious choice for getting all that forma is the 10 dollar platinum pack. so that's 10*270= 2,700 in U.S. currency.

 

that's for a small clan. 270 is small in this game. for a clan this size of outlaw star, or broframe. they're easily breaking the 10k mark. that's not 10k you spend because you enjoy the game. that's not 10k spent to buy colors or alt helmets or slots or any of that good S#&$. That's 10k you have to pay just to be able to have a functioning dojo.

 

I will never accuse DE of trying to pinch the customer again, because you've thoroughly highlighted just how badly they can screw with us if they so choose.

 

My system would not have anyone being "screwed". What I understand from your post is that you don't consider the dojo "functional" unless everyone can access it.

 

I understand your opinion, but that is a highly subjective way of looking at things. You are essentially favoring the model where hundreds of players per clan get to access the benefits of a product, in this case forma, without every farming / using / buying it in the first place.

 

My original example still stands: If you buy a reactor, does every member in your clan get to enjoy the benefits of that reactor? Certainly not.

 

What I am suggesting really isn't as catastrophic as you might have understood it to be. The dojo is functional. When it is built, you have made it, and it is there to use. However, there is a balanced "fee" of using one forma to access the benefits of a particular room.

 

You are entitled to have your opinion that members should get access for not doing anything. However, that is the underlying problem to the enormous error that was made, both from a business and gameplay stand point.

 

And you can't even say that it is unfair because the approach is perfectly scalable, if you are a clan with 1000 members and you really believe that members shouldn't have to pay forma to access clan benefits, then you can just donate forma on a members behalf as I've outlined before.

 

This approach really is balanced, while giving a monetary advantage to DE and giving a balanced and fair gameplay approach to the individual player and smaller clan.

 

However, if you choose not to agree because of your personal opinion or preference, that's your right. No hard feelings. :)

[BETAOPTICS]

Or, you could join a larger clan. I'm pretty antisocial and misanthropic, but I'm currently leading a clan with 270+ members, and it is going smashingly, even If I don't know half of the people there.

 

Because let's just assume for a minute, that they did implement this. For every room in the dojo you want to access, you have to drop a forma in the bucket. Let's say that you only really want access to 5 rooms, and your Clan architects built the dojo so that you could access those 5 rooms without spending extra forma.

 

Now let's take a clan of my size, 270. and multiply that by 5. that means in order for minimal access, the clan would have to purchase a total of 1,350 forma. let's multiply that by the amount of plat each forma costs to see how much platinum is involved. 27,000 is the number I came up with.  now if we divide this by platinum packs. The most obvious choice for getting all that forma is the 10 dollar platinum pack. so that's 10*270= 2,700 in U.S. currency.

 

that's for a small clan. 270 is small in this game. for a clan this size of outlaw star, or broframe. they're easily breaking the 10k mark. that's not 10k you spend because you enjoy the game. that's not 10k spent to buy colors or alt helmets or slots or any of that good S#&$. That's 10k you have to pay just to be able to have a functioning dojo.

 

I will never accuse DE of trying to pinch the customer again, because you've thoroughly highlighted just how badly they can screw with us if they so choose.

 

This is a poor mans solution to things, simply saying join a big clan is not going to be the solution to problems of small clans. It only hides the problem but does noting to solve it. People want to stay away for different reasons. I like to play with other people, don't get me wrong but when it comes to daily interaction with them, I'm fine with the fact that I only meet you once during my playtime as that is as much I want to have anything to do with said individual thus forming a small clan with my real life friends seem more appealing to me. Some could say that it is my own problem and it is, without a question, but does it justify the punishment the developers give you? No it does not. I think I deserve justice, after all I have put more money into this game than I would for a normal game because I still do believe in the DE developers team. I will give them time if this means that the current version is only to draw the lines for data but I will not swallow this if it is going to stay like this for a month or two and neither will anyone I know.

[Bakim0n0]

So...

Your solution to the issue is to lock out f2p players from easily accessing CLAN centric content and CO-OP focused gameplay by pigeonholing them into either paying or using the already uncommon drops that they could use to significantly empower their gear to access a feature designed to be a core aspect of play?

*slow clap*

That'd be a really great way to kill the game. Give a real, tangible, in your face division between paying and non-paying customers and a great way to absolutely decimate clan's because f2p users will feel left out and totally unwilling to contribute to a Dojo they either can't access or have severely limited access to.

[Avenwing]

So...

Your solution to the issue is to lock out f2p players from easily accessing CLAN centric content and CO-OP focused gameplay by pigeonholing them into either paying or using the already uncommon drops that they could use to significantly empower their gear to access a feature designed to be a core aspect of play?

*slow clap*

That'd be a really great way to kill the game. Give a real, tangible, in your face division between paying and non-paying customers and a great way to absolutely decimate clan's because f2p users will feel left out and totally unwilling to contribute to a Dojo they either can't access or have severely limited access to.

DE has already done that themselves with this current update.

[Bakim0n0]

DE has already done that themselves with this current update.

In your opinion.

My clan has more than a few players who are fully f2p and we take them along on runs, help them farm void keys / void drops and knowing we help them gets them excited about paying back into the clan via mats (which we've often helped them farm in the first place).

If they were stuck not being able to access the dojo without coughing up a Forma it would discourage them from participating and therefore discourage clan mates from helping them when we'd rather focus on helping people who do contribute.

This would literally put a divide in clans that is WAY not cool.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[BramBlackmon]

My system would not have anyone being "screwed". What I understand from your post is that you don't consider the dojo "functional" unless everyone can access it.

 

I understand your opinion, but that is a highly subjective way of looking at things. You are essentially favoring the model where hundreds of players per clan get to access the benefits of a product, in this case forma, without every farming / using / buying it in the first place.

 

My original example still stands: If you buy a reactor, does every member in your clan get to enjoy the benefits of that reactor? Certainly not.

 

What I am suggesting really isn't as catastrophic as you might have understood it to be. The dojo is functional. When it is built, you have made it, and it is there to use. However, there is a balanced "fee" of using one forma to access the benefits of a particular room.

 

You are entitled to have your opinion that members should get access for not doing anything. However, that is the underlying problem to the enormous error that was made, both from a business and gameplay stand point.

 

And you can't even say that it is unfair because the approach is perfectly scalable, if you are a clan with 1000 members and you really believe that members shouldn't have to pay forma to access clan benefits, then you can just donate forma on a members behalf as I've outlined before.

 

This approach really is balanced, while giving a monetary advantage to DE and giving a balanced and fair gameplay approach to the individual player and smaller clan.

 

However, if you choose not to agree because of your personal opinion or preference, that's your right. No hard feelings. :)

 

yes. The Dojo is absolutely useless if it's blocked off to the majority of the clan. that defies the purpose of a clan hangout. 

 

and If I build a reactor, everyone does get to use it, because it powers the other rooms that they're occupying and allows us to build them in the first place.

 

As to this "They did nothing " they most certainly did. They contributed the other resources besides forma. Half of them contributed plat to rush build orders. There was no free ride, everyone contributed what they could. Why should they be locked out of something they put just as much into, for the sake of "balance" 

 

It's Unfair because it's only purpose is to squeeze money out of people for basic functions. I paid the rest of my clan's way. Other members of the clan paid their way. There's absolutely no reason to charge money for a basic advertised function, other than to try and dig as deep into your consumer base's pocket.

 

This is not balance in the weakest sense of that word. You're only arguing for it because you're in a small clan and you think you've find a way to appeal to the Dev's greed to make it easier on yourself.

[Bakim0n0]

-snip-

Other than that last bit about "Dev greed" I agree with your points very much; and I highlighted as much with my commentary.

I really wish people would wake up to this silly idea of calling the Dev's greedy for wanting money to cover overhead... People don't work for free, it's not wanton greed it's business.

[BramBlackmon]

Other than that last bit about "Dev greed" I agree with your points very much; and I highlighted as much with my commentary.

I really wish people would wake up to this silly idea of calling the Dev's greedy for wanting money to cover overhead... People don't work for free, it's not wanton greed it's business.

 

I'm not calling the Devs greedy. I'm saying this plan is trying to appeal to the Dev's desire to make money in the worst way possible. If they were to implement it, they'd be greedy. 

[Avenwing]

Other than that last bit about "Dev greed" I agree with your points very much; and I highlighted as much with my commentary.

I really wish people would wake up to this silly idea of calling the Dev's greedy for wanting money to cover overhead... People don't work for free, it's not wanton greed it's business.

The forma requirements from this patch was a cash grab. And it is absolutely ridiculous, it needs to be toned down a LOT. It would be one thing if it didn't require around 100+ forma to have a dojo with all the basic functions necessary to do research.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Avenwing

[rawrifficus]

This is a very good idea I would absolutely love it if they made this change. With that drastic decrease in total forma required it's actually possible for smaller clans to have a dojo.

[Bakim0n0]

The forma requirements from this patch was a cash grab. And it is absolutely ridiculous, it needs to be toned down a LOT. It would be one thing if it didn't require around 100+ forma to have a dojo with all the basic functions necessary to do research.

Your *opinion*

Firstly, it's in alpha stages, so it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth hopping into with both feet with real money contribution; personally I have decided to refrain from that aspect until it gets more evened out.

Secondly has it not occurred to you that they didn't really want us to make a clan overnight, hence setting the price point so high? It's the same thing with the frames... You can spend 20 bucks to buy a frame or you can spend the in game time like they really intended you to. I don't think they really expected people to dump 200+ bucks just to make everything right away on any sort of large scale.

That being said... we have no idea what the financial state of DE is. We have no idea what their overhead is, we have no idea how much debt they incurred during the development phases of Warframe (this can take YEARS with little to no income) and, again, it's about compensation not raw greed.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Avenwing]

Your *opinion*

Firstly, it's in alpha stages, so it's up to the individual to decide if it's worth hopping into with both feet with real money contribution; personally I have decided to refrain from that aspect until it gets more evened out.

Secondly has it not occurred to you that they didn't really want us to make a clan overnight, hence setting the price point so high? It's the same thing with the frames... You can spend 20 bucks to buy a frame or you can spend the in game time like they really intended you to. I don't think they really expected people to dump 200+ bucks just to make everything right away on any sort of large scale.

I'm not complaining about not being able to make a clan overnight. It shouldn't take a small clan 2 years to get the materials either.

[WARGAMES]

Read Op post, would not spend more money. Would sooner go mod stardrive.

[Bakim0n0]

I'm not complaining about not being able to make a clan overnight. It shouldn't take a small clan 2 years to get the materials either.

We have no idea how long it will take a small clan to gather the materials.

The update hasn't even been out a weekend and the Dojo system is in alpha stages.

[iBrigandi]

Well this guy idea is well thought out but is flawed to a degree. Like someone stated above what is the demand of people buying forma. I highly doubt every one in a large clan would buy them. I would even argue only a small percentage would buy them even if that requirement was there. As a result many people would avoid clans and drop the game claiming that you needed to waste money to get better in the game because I have a good feeling that those research weapons are packing heat.

Edited May 25, 2013 by iBrigandi

[Avenwing]

We have no idea how long it will take a small clan to gather the materials.

The update hasn't even been out a weekend and the Dojo system is in alpha stages.

Many people have been farming for 18+ hours and still haven't gotten a key let alone forma. In it's current form it'll take months for a small clan that isn't buying plat/forma months to get the required forma to build a connector, an oracle, and a reactor. Assuming people are playing a reasonable amount of time a week (as in they have jobs so can only play an hour or two a day) you can easily triple the time required to farm the necessary forma. Secondly take a quick peek at the forum thread with all the lab research. While I'm fine it having a steep cost for research, the cost right now is just stupid. DE might as well give small clans the middle finger and tell us to gtfo.

[Bakim0n0]

Many people have been farming for 18+ hours and still haven't gotten a key let alone forma. In it's current form it'll take months for a small clan that isn't buying plat/forma months to get the required forma to build a connector, an oracle, and a reactor. Assuming people are playing a reasonable amount of time a week (as in they have jobs so can only play an hour or two a day) you can easily triple the time required to farm the necessary forma. Secondly take a quick peek at the forum thread with all the lab research. While I'm fine it having a steep cost for research, the cost right now is just stupid. DE might as well give small clans the middle finger and tell us to gtfo.

Interesting. I just heard about a 10 man clan that is working on their 2nd room without paying a cent.

[Avenwing]

Interesting. I just heard about a 10 man clan that is working on their 2nd room without paying a cent.

With RNG there are always exceptions, you do not balance on exceptions.

[Bakim0n0]

With RNG there are always exceptions, you do not balance on exceptions.

Or maybe... there are people that realize if they actually work at it instead of complaining on the forum all day they will actually *progress*

Absolutely crazy thought, I know.

[Luxangel7]

So...

Your solution to the issue is to lock out f2p players from easily accessing CLAN centric content and CO-OP focused gameplay by pigeonholing them into either paying or using the already uncommon drops that they could use to significantly empower their gear to access a feature designed to be a core aspect of play?

*slow clap*

That'd be a really great way to kill the game. Give a real, tangible, in your face division between paying and non-paying customers and a great way to absolutely decimate clan's because f2p users will feel left out and totally unwilling to contribute to a Dojo they either can't access or have severely limited access to.

 

In your opinion.

My clan has more than a few players who are fully f2p and we take them along on runs, help them farm void keys / void drops and knowing we help them gets them excited about paying back into the clan via mats (which we've often helped them farm in the first place).

If they were stuck not being able to access the dojo without coughing up a Forma it would discourage them from participating and therefore discourage clan mates from helping them when we'd rather focus on helping people who do contribute.

This would literally put a divide in clans that is WAY not cool.

 

As to your first post, I find it absurd that you judge my suggestion as creating a divide between free and paying players when the current system is exactly that, taken to an extreme level. My suggested system if anything would bring together the two types of players by making an easy to achieve standard that everyone can attain at their own pace. 

 

In response to your second post, I don't understand where you get the notion that having to spend forma would discourage people from participating in a clan. You are mistakenly associating two different and separate things. Clan functions are enabled by the use of a product. That product is forma and resources. Currently, the system enables a select few to spend a lot of money on some of that product and then everyone else gets access to the benefits of that product for free. My system would correct that error and make it balanced and fair gameplay for all.

 

Your examples of your clan are just fine, and let's assume for the moment that everything you said is 100% accurate. Which I very highly doubt, especially due to the fact there's no way to check who gives what. Anyway, let's assume it's true. Do you think that because your clan had that experience that every other clan is the same? Cmon, let's be real, players are going to be motivated to just join a large clan and wait. Pure and simple.

 

yes. The Dojo is absolutely useless if it's blocked off to the majority of the clan. that defies the purpose of a clan hangout. 

 

and If I build a reactor, everyone does get to use it, because it powers the other rooms that they're occupying and allows us to build them in the first place.

 

As to this "They did nothing " they most certainly did. They contributed the other resources besides forma. Half of them contributed plat to rush build orders. There was no free ride, everyone contributed what they could. Why should they be locked out of something they put just as much into, for the sake of "balance" 

 

It's Unfair because it's only purpose is to squeeze money out of people for basic functions. I paid the rest of my clan's way. Other members of the clan paid their way. There's absolutely no reason to charge money for a basic advertised function, other than to try and dig as deep into your consumer base's pocket.

 

This is not balance in the weakest sense of that word. You're only arguing for it because you're in a small clan and you think you've find a way to appeal to the Dev's greed to make it easier on yourself.

 

I'm sorry but you have completely missed the point of the clan dojo. The clan dojo is not a favor that the devs made out of the goodness of their hearts. The clan dojo is a product that is meant to be consumed for entertainment, just like the rest of the game. Everything in this game requires some sort of payment. Whether you are "paying" with your time to play and get mods, resources, blueprints whatever, or if you are paying real money is irrelevant.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not change the fact that the dojo is a product, just like forma. So expecting players to have to contribute a little bit each to be able to access the benefits of the dojo is completely and absolutely normal.

 

Like I mentioned previously, the cost of the reactor could be added just like the cost for an oracle would be, when you go and try to access a labs functions. It's really not that hard to imagine. You can go unlock your personal access to the reactor and oracle either by going to those rooms, or when you try and access the lab functions.

 

You can provide as many anecdotes as you want for your personal clan, but at the end of the day, they are difficult to believe, impossible to prove, and statistically irrelevant when considering all clans and their members as an aggregate taken from the pool of total players, when referring to pricing models and profits derived from an economy of scale model.

 

On a personal less mathematical note, as I responded to Bakimono, if that's how it TRULY went for you, more power to you. However are you really going to suggest that most people are going to be so altruistic and caring about their mega clan that they will donate resources? Much less forma??

Let's be realistic...

 

What I propose is not a unilateral money grab, it is balanced from both player and dev view point, if you choose not view it as such that is your prerogative of course. Basic functions? I would hardly argue that advanced features are basic functions, and right now they are forcing players into either spending ludicrous amounts of money or none at all in joining a large clan for those very same "basic features". I really don't see how you think my suggestion falls into your description.

 

And look man, if you honestly think I took the time to express myself and defend my opinions because "I belong to small clan" and I need to "appease the devs greed" then you are WAY off the mark. I wrote what I did because I want to see the company do as well as possible while treating their fans to the best game play possible.

 

I am blessed enough to not have any problems in just straight up buying whatever is available for this game. I haven't done so because I prefer the challenge and fun factor in earning and progressing along with several of my friends, who may not have the same disposition to spend so much on it that I do. So please save any such theories about me trying to somehow "convince" the devs into doing me a favor.

 

Interesting. I just heard about a 10 man clan that is working on their 2nd room without paying a cent.

 

Apart from being a completely unverifiable and unlikely claim, even if it is true, you do not balance the system or judge it to be sound because of an exception to the flawed system.

 

An analogous example would be to say that 10 people ran through a field of land mines. Since 3 people came out alive and one person came out without any injuries, then all things considered that mine field isn't that dangerous.

 

While an extreme example, you understand my point.

 

Or maybe... there are people that realize if they actually work at it instead of complaining on the forum all day they will actually *progress*

Absolutely crazy thought, I know.

 

Bakimono what is the purpose of this post? Why try to antagonize someone needlessly? We are discussing the merits and fatal flaws of the current system. If you think everything is fine, as you seem to, that's great. As you are so fond of saying, that is your *opinion*. Please do not antagonize or bait others into arguments just for having an opinion that differs from your own.

 

Unless you really think that simply calling people whiners is actually constructive...

Edited May 25, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[Avenwing]

Or maybe... there are people that realize if they actually work at it instead of complaining on the forum all day they will actually *progress*

Absolutely crazy thought, I know.

I'm waiting for them to bring the reset back up, I plan to reset so that if necessary I will have the plat needed to actually build my dojo. Necessary being determined by whether or not we get any void keys after a reasonable amount of time farming defense missions.

[SymphNo9]

This gives a whole new meaning to co-op...Are you by any chances, working for EA's finance department?

 

How would you explain a friend that just recently joined the game and you got him into your clan. "Yea, sorry dude--you'll either have to buy 3 formas or pray to the RNG gods, in order to experience our awesome lab..."

Edited May 25, 2013 by SymphNo9

[Luxangel7]

This gives a whole new meaning to co-op...Are you by any chances, working for EA's finance department?

 

How would you explain a friend that just recently joined the game and you got him into your clan. "Yea, sorry dude--you'll either have to buy 3 formas or pray to the RNG gods, in order to experience our awesome lab..."

 

I hate EA and everything they stand for just as much as the next person. I won't go into it, but their role in what turned out to be the colossal failure that was Mass Effect 3 burned an ever lasting disgust and intense hatred for them. So rest easy, I am most certainly not working for them.

 

To answer your question I would explain it very simply. I would give the same explanation that you would give to a new player who wants a catalyst or a reactor.

"Don't worry man, they're rare, but just play and have fun and you will get some via the normal reward methods." If you consider, as I've mentioned before, that you can earn forma by void mission rewards, you as a clan leader/member can take other members along with you and try to get forma that way too.

 

Although it doesn't automatically make it easy to obtain or anything, you would essentially join a clan and cooperate with others in the clan (be invited to or host void runs) to get forma to unlock functionality in the clan.

 

It is a perfectly balanced and reasonable approach to clan content, if you look at it as a whole.

 

I think the mistake you and maybe others are making might be mistaking the benefits of being in a clan with the rewards for being in a clan. As a new member, you don't have to pay a dime to access the benefits. You will enjoy cooperation, community, teamwork, friend making etc etc. To access the rewards for such interactions, you have to spend a little bit of the resources / forma you collected while doing those same activities with your clan mates. Exact same approach as catalysts and reactors, but on a clan scale/model.

Edited May 25, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[SymphNo9]

-snip-

 

I see your points, but I disagree that the forma is comparable to catalysts/reactors. Forma is used to gain access to content, catalysts/reactors are only here to enhance the content. You can still play with your Hek or Grakata without a potatoe, but you won't be able to experience the lab if you don't fork out 3 formas or get lucky.

 

Also, usually when you bring in new friends in online games, you want to help them as much as possible to "bring them up on your level", gear-wise. With your suggestion, that won't be a simple matter as it still depends on them spending money right off the bat or start praying.

Edited May 25, 2013 by SymphNo9