Stealth Rework: Faction Based

[Whackhat]

Hello,

 

This post is quite long, so there are multiple sections, including a TL;DR. Feel free to skim and skip around, but if you plan to leave feedback or criticize, I recommend reading the whole thing.

 

These changes would hopefully take place after these more pressing issues with stealth: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/3930-stealth-feedback-suggestions-thread/

(Thread OP is pretty beast at stealth, as per his youtube vids.)

 

Note, this is a rework, which means i'm trying to outright change certain things, and scrap others.

 

1: Disclaimer

2: Main arguments and key implementations.

3: Faction based senses and stealth mechanics

4: Awareness, two possible ways of incorporating it.

5: Conclusion

 

6:TL;DR (scroll all the way down)

 

 

 

*DISCLAIMER*

 

If you dislike change, you probably shouldn't be playing beta. If you think stealth is easy or fine the way it is, you don't play it enough. While I may be relatively new to this game, I've never had one person tell me they think stealth is worth-while. Or easy. Also, for what it's worth, I play a lot of stealth based games, and may borrow some ideas from them throughout this post.

 

----MAIN---

 

Stealth has some issues. Mostly the fact that while it can be fun, and fewer mobs are encountered, it usually isn't worth the time it takes. Another issue is stealthing vs different factions. All of the factions we have encountered have different strengths and weaknesses. I would like to have stealth mechanics that reflect this, and hopefully make stealth play worthwhile.

 

EXP: first of all, undetected kill exp has to be higher. If you remain undetected for the duration of a game, you will notice you receive terrible exp. I would like to suggest ~5x exp per undetected kill. This would make stealth a more attractive approach in a mission, rather than simply running in guns blazing.

 

REWARDS: I recommend adding in a small credit boost if the mission is completed without an alarm being activated. Running a mission in stealth generally takes longer than any other completion methods, so let's make it worth the time.

 

DIFFICULTY: If you try to stealth against anything other than the Grineer, you're gonna have a bad time. Below is an idea to change the mechanics slightly.

 

ALARM BOXES: Instead of an alarm being triggered from a control panel, an alarm box would have to be triggered. There would be one per main room, none in certain hallways, and they would be Breakable. This means that once the box has been broken in that room, the remaining units will be unable to trigger an alarm. They would still be able to alert other rooms, however.

 

AWARENESS INDICATORS: (See awareness section) Allow us to see how alert enemies are. This will let us know when to hide and when we can move. They will increase when we are in sight, and decrease when we remain hidden. Seeing a dead body will make an enemy paranoid, and check around before calling an alarm. Maybe his buddy had a heart attack.

 

FALSE ALARMS: Hey! I saw her first! *Other Grineer shoves his friend into alarm box* **WARNING, LIFEFORM DETECTED**...*quickly press x on alarm box* "(fake Grineer voice) Nah, it's cool, just bumped it, nothing's wrong." **"OK, NEVERMIND"**

 

(Has to be on the same alarm box, in a short time. Somewhere around a few seconds)

 

DEDICATED SPAWN ROOMS: Each tile set should have its own dedicated spawn room. Played (attempted) roughly 10 stealth games in a row, 3 of them had alarms sounded seconds after the cutscene of my entrance ended. Specifically the locker room spawn. It must contain 0 enemies, as well as hopefully 2-3 containers for extra starting energy, which leads into my next idea:

 

FULL STARTING ENERGY: We start with full health, shields, but half of our base energy? Like wtf man, is Lotus having a shortage or something? When playing stealth, a Loki may have to pop invisibility right after he opens his first door, and most spawns now do not have any/many storage containers to stock up on. This means that he may only get 1-2 uses in order to find more energy, which is very scarce when playing stealth.

 

-----FACTIONS-----

 

Grineer: Due to generations of cloning, we are told that this species has been degraded and mutated. I suggest making their eyesight worse in terms of stealth. Allow us to get closer without being detected. Movement will alert them easier than remaining stationary. Due to the degrading of their eyes, they now rely mostly on sound. A missed shot from a Kunai or Paris may alert enemies more easily, as well as footsteps, making crouching and slow movements necessary.

 

Heavy units will also not be able to press the buttons on the alarm boxes. Stupid movement-restricting armor.

 

Corpus: Now there are 2 kinds of Corpus. The living, and the robots. I'm not 100% sure how stealth on corpus missions work, only attempted it a few times. Now, security cameras got a visual update, which helps a lot. We can actually see where they are now.

 

Here is how i believe stealth on Corpus missions should work: Moas and Ospreys should not be able to alert others. They are proxies told to kill any intruder without hesitation. They can detect you, and the sounds from their guns may alert close crewman, but they themselves should have no alarm triggering abilities.

 

Corpus technology? Through their advanced technology, they have developed things such as cameras. I'd like to take this a step further, and say that every Corpus Crewman's helmet comes with thermal imaging. This means that they would be able to see you behind boxes. *CRIES* Sniff... But it was already hard... Let me finish. This thermal imaging drains a lot of power, which makes it toggle-able. They turn it on when their awareness reaches a certain amount, and turn it off after a set time. To let us know it's on, their visors can turn green or something. But because they rely so much on visuals, their helmets don't allow much sound in.

 

Going back to the Moas not being able to alert things: Moas can only alert Crewman if the Crewman hears shots. But, because of the helmets, the Crewman have the hearing equivalence of your 80 year old grandpappy. This means that unless a Crewman sees you, or is quite close to a Moa that is attacking you, an alarm won't be triggered.

 

(Part where I'm not 100% sure about, may already be like this) Only the human Corpus should be able to trigger alarms. Security cameras, when they turn red, should increase the awareness of ALL Corpus in the level, but not trigger alarms.

 

Part where the cameras come in: Cameras increase awareness. Awareness increased = thermal imaging on. Thermal imaging on = RUN FOREST RUN

 

Another possibility for corpus missions is not to let Moas and Ospreys spawn before an alarm is sounded. Here is the reason:

 

Proxy: "A person authorized to act on behalf of another."

Lotus refers to the Corpus robots as proxies. Think of when an alarm is sounded, how containers open and shockwave Moas can step out, like they're being authorized to act. If all proxies were like that, such as shield ospreys and normal Moas, stealth killing corpus crewmans and techs would be significantly easier. Stealth is just about ruined when there is a shield osprey floating over 4 crewman, this would make it easier to quickly eliminate the targets without alarms.

 

And keeping the proxies contained kind of makes sense, they probably have to keep their batteries charged.

 

Infested: I see these creatures as more zombie-like. Acting purely on instinct. As such, their senses such as hearing and sight will be honed. But their intelligence is lacking. First of all, they can't trigger alarms as it stands now. I'd like to make it so Ancients can trigger alarms, but normal infested cannot. Secondly, infested won't have awareness. If they see you, they attack. If other infested see an infested going to attack you, they go to attack. If they hear a sound, they run towards it. Kind of a monkey see, monkey do deal.

 

But the Ancients, those have brains. If they see a whole bunch of their minions swarming towards a location, or see or hear you like the other infested, they will bee-line for an alarm box.

 

If an alarm is triggered by an ancient, nearby infested swarm to the location that the alarm was triggered in. They will still have to see or hear you to find you, though.

 

----AWARENESS----

 

Stealth, as it stands, is an all or nothing kind of deal. Either someone sees you or they don't. An alarm is triggered or it isn't. I would like to add a little bit off buffer between these two extremes with another property an enemy can have, called awareness.

 

I have two different ideas for this mechanic, very similar, but slightly different.

 

The first: A scale from 0 to 100 per NPC.

 

0, an enemy has no idea anyone is on the ship / at the location.

1-25, He heard a footstep or a missed shot. Maybe its his friend or a misfire. He looks, but doesn't stray from his path.

26-50, The enemy will move closer to your location or the location of the bullet/weapon sound (for example, if a bullet hits a wall, they check out the wall, then look around)

51-74 If the enemy saw you, he will run towards you or the area you were last seen around. Enemy will stay there, maybe alert his squad, but not the ship or the next room.

74-99 You were seen, the enemy will either attack you or alert the ship/next room, depending on the enemy.

100 - Ship is alerted, begin normal non-stealth mission.

 

Certain actions such as any heard sounds, gunshots, dead bodies, cameras being triggered, etc can increase the awareness of an enemy by a defined amount.

 

The Second (My preference): 3 levels per enemy, different levels of alarms.

 

All Clear: Enemy is unaware of anything, acts as if it's just another day.

Code yellow: Enemy is cautious, will run towards the next sound.

Code red: You were spotted, and are now being attacked. Enemy may run towards alarms if applicable.

 

DEFCON - Part 2 of Part 2.

 

Defcon 5: Possible intruder, very close units investigate. 1st alarm trigger = defcon 5.

Defcon 4: a second unit pushes the alarm box, or a heavy Grineer/Big Crewman (forget what they're called)/Ancient is killed during Defcon 5. Defcon 4 will spawn mobs close to the alarm trigger.

Defcon 3: Defcon 4 has been active for 2 minutes, or 3-4 alarm boxes triggered. More mobs spawned, more move in.

Defcon 2: Either Defcon 3 active for 2 minutes, or 4-5 alarm boxes triggered. More spawned, more move in.

Defcon 1/Normal mode: Defcon 2 active for 2 minutes, 5+ boxes triggered. Normal un-stealthed mode begins.

 

Moving back up the Defcon ranks: to go from Defcon (N) (current) to Defcon (N+1) (less aware) requires that no more alarm boxes are triggered, and that you are not shot at for 30 seconds. Once you are in Defcon 1 however, there is no going back to any previous state.

 

players joining a game in which defcon 1 has not yet been reached will be given a 5-10 second window of invisibility, as well as a large notice of the current defcon level (possibly before joining the squad) as to not ruin the game for the previous player(s).

 

Rewards from stealth would decrease once each defcon rank is reached, and be removed at defcon 1. Also, once you are detected, the bonus exp per kill would be removed until defcon 5 is reached.

 

----CONCLUSION---

 

I believe that these reworks will make the stealth option a viable one. I personally would love if i could stealth every map. Along with giving players a little more notice before being detected, these would help develop teamwork and actually make team-stealth possible, instead of just solo-stealth.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------TL;DR-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Main:

-Destroyable alarm boxes instead of control panels to trigger.

-Increased exp and credits for stealth

-False alarm trigger, press x on box within seconds of original alarm, now no alarm is active.

 

Factions:

-Grinner: Lower eyesight, better hearing, heavies can't activate alarms.

-Corpus option 1: Crewman have toggling thermal vision for short durations, but can't hear jack $#!t. Only Crewman can alarm.

-Corpus option 2: Moas and Ospreys dont spawn until alarm is sounded.

-Infested: Ancients trigger alarms, normal grunts only attack you if they see you, and only move towards you if they see another run towards you or hear the alarm.

 

Awareness:

- A stat for an NPC to have, goes from oblivious->curious->cautious->frightened->alarmed. (alarmed state is current alarmed state, oblivious state is current undetected state.)

------two ways to implement it-----

-Awareness for mobs, 1 alarm level.

-Awareness for mobs, multiple alarm levels.

  -Mobs and the level react differently at different alarm levels, partial rewards for only reaching certain levels.

 

 

 

Hope you like the suggestions, please leave feedback and other ideas.

 

Thanks,

Shigglesx

Edited May 30, 2013 by Shigglesx

[PlumTheHermitCrab]

I like the idea. I'd love to see stealth get some more love eventually.

[GraalOhOtonami]

I'd quite like for the alarm to have a time lapse while the enemies activate it, it's all over if an enemy comes within a foot of that green screen, they should be typing in a password to make sure it's no prank or false alarm.

[_Chaser]

grineer eye sight is short enough. i guarantee that you can sneak in their face on 5-7 meters with no problems whatsoever.

infested eye sight is better then grineer. (dogs atleast)

as soon as enemy got in cautious state he can see you from 10-15 meters i guess and his vision around 160.

alot of ideas are great and are/were on list, yet alot of complex concepts such as awarness level and reward system based on these states. the simplier - the better and the moe chances of implementing straight of the bat, so we can build complex stealth system brick by brick instead of new bugged overhaul on existing bugged system.

glad to see a fellow stealth player.

would love to add these concepts on main thread but it would be rather convinient if you will short it straight to points ;) previous stealth and suggestions thread was long as F*** so people had troubles to read it, so had to short it up.

Edited May 25, 2013 by n7snk

[Amarid]

Agreed with almost everything said.

 

I would like to have a steath-kill option to every enemy in the stages. Except for ospreys and similar cases, I cant see why not steath-kill shielded Grinners, Commanders, and so on. Moas have a visible box in their backs, a good steath target, etc.

 

Keep up the good work guys  

[Whackhat]

Organized the post slightly, improved TL;DR section.

[_Chaser]

great! adding

[Ditsydoo]

Ive played stealth on all three factions and i can say that this would be awesome. So what if we had tools or something that would create a distraction, much like a steel ball to lead an enemy somewhere. But I like this idea too bad the devs normally ignore these threads, even if they are this well written.

[Tetsmeha]

Would be cool if enemies had visual indicators of their awareness state. Like if all Lancers had their masks opened, and it would close as soon as they enter the standard battle state. It'd also be a neat throwback to the Dark Sector trailer.

[Whackhat]

Added more to the corpus section after a few more runs against them. (Ended badly btw. Robots explode, not the quietest thing.)

[Prios]

What I'd like to see is for the control panels/alarm boxes on the minimap before the ship goes on alert. They show up when lockdown is triggered, after all, so We Have The Technology.

It would also make brutal SEAL team-style hustle-and-kill stealth more feasible, which is something this game really seems to have the potential for.

Say an advance scout or two (Loki and Banshee maybe) go as far into the room as possible, get into a good position, then snarl "Go. Now!" over voice comms. What follows is gory and sudden and probably makes a lot violent noises near the entrance, but in the grand scheme of things is frightfully discreet.

[Whackhat]

What I'd like to see is for the control panels/alarm boxes on the minimap before the ship goes on alert. They show up when lockdown is triggered, after all, so We Have The Technology.

It would also make brutal SEAL team-style hustle-and-kill stealth more feasible, which is something this game really seems to have the potential for.

Say an advance scout or two (Loki and Banshee maybe) go as far into the room as possible, get into a good position, then snarl "Go. Now!" over voice comms. What follows is gory and sudden and probably makes a lot violent noises near the entrance, but in the grand scheme of things is frightfully discreet.

I enjoy the minimap idea, maybe tied in with loot radar mod or enemy radar?

[Caliocerion]

I think that even after the alarms are triggered, enemies should only be aware in the general location you're coming from, but will not fire at you until you are within their field of vision. If you break the field of vision, they'll go into ALERT status and maybe provide suppressing fire or check things out. If you are not within an enemy's field of view and they aren't sure where exactly you are, you should still be able to assassinate them.

[Whackhat]

I think that even after the alarms are triggered, enemies should only be aware in the general location you're coming from, but will not fire at you until you are within their field of vision. If you break the field of vision, they'll go into ALERT status and maybe provide suppressing fire or check things out. If you are not within an enemy's field of view and they aren't sure where exactly you are, you should still be able to assassinate them.

also a good idea, i suggest posting it to the sticky'd thread as well. Tweaks like that seem to be the focus of the thread.

 

Under the awareness section, i may add awareness levels/defcon levels where enemies can still be assassinated. Like if an enemy is 75% aware you cannot stealth kill him, but 50% you can.

[CptDux]

i once set off an alarm by sticking an enemy to a panel from pointblank range with the paris. we were 30 feet away from the button he wound up stuck to

Edited May 27, 2013 by Mizukyuubi

[Boomstick720]

I like the faction stealth idea a lot, except perhaps the infested should stay as they are for the most part.  My thought has always been that the infested are almost like a hive mind, so that when one sees you, EVERYONE sees you.  They may be stupid, but I think you kind of kill the point of the infested if you only have a group of 4 or 5 coming at you at any one time, and "sounding an alarm" wouldn't make much sense with them I think.  I really like the corpus idea though, and the grineer idea is alright.

 

Overall, I like this, but I'd rather stick with the infested as they are.

[Whackhat]

I like the faction stealth idea a lot, except perhaps the infested should stay as they are for the most part.  My thought has always been that the infested are almost like a hive mind, so that when one sees you, EVERYONE sees you.  They may be stupid, but I think you kind of kill the point of the infested if you only have a group of 4 or 5 coming at you at any one time, and "sounding an alarm" wouldn't make much sense with them I think.  I really like the corpus idea though, and the grineer idea is alright.

 

Overall, I like this, but I'd rather stick with the infested as they are.

The only reason an alarm is suggested is because of the rewards system requiring an alarm.

 

Honestly, i'd prefer a way to trick their senses, such as breaking some of the growth occasionally to have them be attracted to it, as to get them out of the way.

[_Chaser]

well it can be done rather simple way: stealth bonus for infested missions is 0,5 of stealth bonus for grineer (1,0) and 1,5 for corpus.

penalties for kill are present.

[Whackhat]

other than that would also simply encourage rushing on infested missions. no alarms, no deaths, easy credits.

[Bubsters]

infested would have taste sense. like how bugs psedo-taste with their antanaee. air-currents,vibrations etc.

 

other than that good post.

[_Chaser]

other than that would also simply encourage rushing on infested missions. no alarms, no deaths, easy credits.

hmm.... then some kind of alert system for infested too?

[LazerusKI]

good ideas

[Whackhat]

Also, posted this idea on main thread as well, about a dedicated spawn room.

 

Too often i've spawned next to enemies and been spotted without moving.

[Whackhat]

Well, stealth wasn't even mentioned in live stream 6, i am disappoint. Has anyone tested new research weapons in stealth play?

[Judopunch]

Many good ideas here