Burst Fire Weapons Rework

[Jumba255]

SHouldn't the recoil on burst weapons be close to none? 

I thought that was the point of burst fire, to have an accurate gun that shoots more than one bullet in a pull of the trigger.

 

Every burst weapon in this game (excluding shade pistol) has way to much recoil and are almost unusable (IMO, im terrible at the correction technique as well)

 

So any yays or nays are appreciated

 

constructive feedback highly welcomed

[Withinfinite]

Well you are firing three bullets at once and that equals more kick back.

 

Personally I think its fine.

[Jumba255]

yet when you go full auto with any other gun its fine but a weak (small caliber) bullet fired in a slower succession with only one pull of the trigger has more recoil?

that makes no sense to me.

[White_Raven]

I think burst weapons only for close to midle range combat only. More shot at same time = more recoil (Logic?).

[Jumba255]

even at close range the gun shoots up and you cant even land all three on a headshot but for fully automatic weapons that would be an easy task.

 

The description is to provide the leathality of automatic rifles/pistols and the Accuracy of semi-automatice rifles/pistols

 

the guns themselves do not represent this

[Volt_Cruelerz]

A fully modded Burston can drop any non-heavy in the game in one click, giving it a lower TTK than the autos.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Jumba255]

my fully modded MK-1 braton can take on any pluto mission alone but the burston or sicarus cannot because they don't have the accuracy needed to land enough headshots or even body shots on mid-range corpus/moas.

 

BTW the firerate mods no longer affect the speed at which the bullets burst only the time between bursts

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Even if they don't, for some reason, I have zero trouble landing medium-long range kills with the thing.

[muccmaster]

I'll copy what I posted in the Burston thread. The problem with burst fire guns is that they recoil between shots during their 2-3 round burst instead of after the entire 2-3 round burst is done. This is the only game I've ever seen do it that way and it's completely stupid.

[Jumba255]

I'll copy what I posted in the Burston thread. The problem with burst fire guns is that they recoil between shots during their 2-3 round burst instead of after the entire 2-3 round burst is done. This is the only game I've ever seen do it that way and it's completely stupid.

so only one person agrees with me? (thanks btw)

 

 

Even if they don't, for some reason, I have zero trouble landing medium-long range kills with the thing.

I have tried to adapt to the burst and have succeeded but its just a pain to know that i could be destroying heavy enemies(and light groups) much faster and without having to adapt to the weapon.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Its DPS is 8.7% lower than the Braton so against heavies, it is definitely weaker and I've always maintained such and this is the ONLY way I could see buffing the Burston that wouldn't necessarily make it stupid OP.  As far as adapting to it goes, some of us naturally prefer burst weapons, so I for example didn't have to adapt to the weapon and I can certainly see your point.  As I've said before, it isn't for everyone, but for those who do enjoy that style, it really is a great gun.

 

If a buff is insisted upon, I suppose an RoF buff would probably be the best option because it would help more early on without making instagibs overly easy later on (since when modded, as said before, it already is ready to fire faster than I can switch to a new target).  Of course it also increases DPS.

 

The thing is though that for a weapon that is 9% worse against some infrequent enemies but dominant against everything else, I still say a buff is not warranted.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Jumba255]

all that is needed is a loss of recoil while firing a burst. I dont see how fire rate would need a change if you can just put a mod on and it is already fine as it is.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

all that is needed is a loss of recoil while firing a burst. I dont see how fire rate would need a change if you can just put a mod on and it is already fine as it is.

I'll quote my explanation from the other thread in which I was responding to the suggestion of pushing the recoil to the end of the burst.

 

 

I do, but I've yet to respond to it in either thread because I've yet to figure out how to articulate why changing it would be bad.  I shall make my best attempt to do so below.

 

Right now, the Burston snowballs as it nears rank 30 because of the fact that can eventually instagib.  Now, as things stand, this makes the Burston the highest skill ceiling weapon in the game because you have to either position your shots so that they don't walk off the target or even better, move down while firing to stay on target for maximum damage against weak points.  This instagib functionality can work at any range but gets progressively more difficult at greater ranges.  In addition, due to the Burst-fire nature of the weapon, close encounters suck because misses are punished much more heavily than on autos.  As said before, it also has a terrible grind.  These things keep it in check by first off scaring off most potential users and second by making it only good for a lot of people at medium range wherein it IS the best weapon in the game.  As your skill with it improves, you can instagib more and more distant targets.

 

If you make this change, you will swing the weapon with the highest skill ceiling in the game from arguably UP to horrendously OP because you will shove everyone up where the skill ceiling is now which basically is a sniper rifle with 3.3 fire rate as opposed to the snipers which have a fraction of that.

 

Burst weapons will never dominate against heavies or close encounters, but the Burston can already demolish everything else if used properly.  I'm not claiming to be the best with it but I can certainly see where it could go if you are fantastic with it.

 

I get where you're coming from, but from a balance perspective, it would do terrible things.

 

Edited May 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Jumba255]

Well i one shot almost everything with my lex if i get a headshot at high levels and if it has gunslinger on it can easily take out any heavy unit, no skill needed.

 

I still don't see the piont of having a skill weapon in a game that doesn't come close to guns that don't need any skill.

Even a Braton with mods an instagib enemies but it can spray at head level and get a whole group.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Lex has much lower DPS and RoF than a Burston and both have effectively the same TTK when used properly so in the time it takes you to kill one and prepare another, I could have killed three.  The Burston when used with skill is better than the snipers.

 

A Braton cannot instagib a high level opponent.  Sure, it will kill quickly, but not in one click.  It will be a brief hold, but that TTK is still worse than the Burston.  I'll put it another way to try to explain why the Burston doesn't need a buff I guess...

 

Burston > all semis: higher RoF and the fact that it shares the capacity to instagib, making it categorically better when used properly

Burston ~ all autos: due to lower TTK, it can keep up in normal engagements and only has 9% less DPS, making it still a decent choice against heavies.

 

Semis specialize in TTK but suffer in DPS.  Autos specialize in DPS but suffer in TTK.  The Burston has all the benefits of semis (TTK) with half the drawbacks to DPS.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Jumba255]

i have no problem with semi-auto firerate as i can click really fast with the gunslinger mod or the other rifle speed mod. The Braton with maxed damage and AP can one click many enemies.

 

My lex can shoot quite fast and it always hits its mark with rediculous damage, i have out performed many full auto and semi-auto rifles with it.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I have never seen a Braton do that and back when I tried out the weapon never experienced it when going against max-level enemies, but if you insist that it is the case, I'll take your word for it as when I used it was back before Update 7 (I switched to Vandal when it came out and sold the normal Braton, but then the Vandal got nerfed).

 

Regardless, all semis and apparently the Braton as well can instagib high level enemies (honestly, I disagree with you here since I don't recall the Braton getting buffed between when I used it and now but I'm humoring the idea).  The Braton then would have the advantage in standard engagements due to its higher RoF and DPS.

 

About bosses though, I figured I'd look into things a bit and for the record, the Burston is actually theoretically better against bosses than the Braton due to reload times (though the difference is only by a mere 2.3%, but due to an assortment of reasons, it's basically a tie).

 

As a result, the overall victor would be the Braton and this would be cause for balance changes.

 

 

If what you say is true and a Braton is actually capable of instagibbing level 35 Grineer Lancers, level 55 MOAs and Crewmen, and whichever non-Ancient infested has the most health (idk which does, I just know that I've had zero trouble with any of them), then quite frankly, I'd recommend nerfing the Braton until this is no longer possible because that would mean that it is categorically better than all semis ever because it obviously has the advantages of being an auto and is still capable of instagibbing at long range.  At that point, however, it is no longer a balance issue with the Burston but with the Braton.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[DBugII]

Well you are firing three bullets at once

I lol'd at this part. You're firing 3 consecutive bullets, not 3 bullets at once.

 

The problem with 3-shot weapons (Not Counting Kraken because of the high-impact shot it fires) is that they're about as accurate if not less so than that of a fully-automatic weapon. They fail to bridge the gap between a semi-automatic weapon and a fully-automatic one.

[MJ12]

In Call of Duty, burst-fire weapons also recoil after every shot. The thing is, they're also ridiculously powerful with very high damage, generally killing enemies with a single burst to the torso.

 

In that case, the burst fire is a balancing mechanism for its ability to instantly murder things.

 

Right now, the burst fire weapons generally have mediocre DPS (outside of the Kraken, which has something like 2x the DPS of a Lex but at the cost of 1/2 the ammo efficiency).

 

The Burstron should, if they want to keep current burst mechanics, deal 30-36 base damage or so (the Latron can be boosted to... 40-45?), giving it a DPS in-line with the Braton but higher ammo efficiency with the cost of being burst-fire and somewhat harder to use due to recoil.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

In Call of Duty, burst-fire weapons also recoil after every shot. The thing is, they're also ridiculously powerful with very high damage, generally killing enemies with a single burst to the torso.

 

In that case, the burst fire is a balancing mechanism for its ability to instantly murder things.

 

Right now, the burst fire weapons generally have mediocre DPS (outside of the Kraken, which has something like 2x the DPS of a Lex but at the cost of 1/2 the ammo efficiency).

 

The Burstron should, if they want to keep current burst mechanics, deal 30-36 base damage or so (the Latron can be boosted to... 40-45?), giving it a DPS in-line with the Braton but higher ammo efficiency with the cost of being burst-fire and somewhat harder to use due to recoil.

What you suggest is only useful if autos such as the Braton cannot instagib normal enemies.  Can you verify that they do?

[Bubsters]

This is the only reason why i sold my kraken.

[0shi]

I love burst-fire weapons, my first purchase was a Burston. Eventually I swapped it for a Boltor when it started feeling weak against higher level mobs. A long time later, I bought a Braton for mastery and fun. My experiences are as follows:

The Braton is more accurate when firing 3-5 shot bursts than the Burston, easily landing those all on a weak spot at medium ranges.

The Braton has the ability to fire single shots, which are virtually pin-point accurate out to fairly long ranges.

The Braton has the ability to go full auto or use longer bursts, and hit weak spots consistently at short range.

The Braton has no delay between bursts.

 

You can play your Braton as a burst-fire rifle more easily and with better effectiveness than if you use a Burston, because the Braton only sacrifices a small amount of damage (1) for massive improvements in accuracy and utility. I don't say this to mock Burston players, I say this because I want it changed. There needs to be a niche for burst fire weapons, and it just doesn't exist when you can use your fully automatic weapons to fill that role.