What I Had To Say To My Clan That I'm Not Happy About At All

[XDeathCoreX]

The fool, should've locked the thread when he had the opportunity and now it's too late, he is way too involved to do it w/o being ridiculed so someone else has to.

[Kyrkitao]

If I'm saying "I've got mine" then all you are saying is "I demand a free ride."

In this scenario of mildly childish and vaguely insulting things going back and forth, how did you not get a 'free ride' either?

[XDeathCoreX]

 Warbros was 1300+ in size for over two months before Update 8. We were already a massive clan. We are smashing through all the material requirements because we can split the work more efficiently since we have 100+ active users online at all hours.

 

 Just about everyone has contributed. Just helping another clanmate farm is contribution enough for us. It doesn't even matter if the individual donates and dumps materials - they don't have to. All we need is for people to play.

 

 Clan Dojo - Smashed because of all the help we've had from our members.

 Void missions - Smashed because of all the people working together on it.

 

 U8 is extremely simple content if you pull up your pants and do it. I've been repeating the idea over and over. If you have anywhere over 30 active users online every day you'll be able to finish the content at a healthy speed.

Got any Clan weaponry equipped now?

[Blatantfool]

In this scenario of mildly childish and vaguely insulting things going back and forth, how did you not get a 'free ride' either?

Fronted the mats, like the majority of my clan's active players.

Got any Clan weaponry equipped now?

1 day left on the timer. Wait times are the majority of the time spent on this.

[Kyrkitao]

Fronted the mats, like the majority of my clan's active players.

Duh. How many of the mats? 5%? That's only 100,000 mats.

[Oni-shi]

I was a solo player and now that I want to enjoy the dojo and I cant.  So I was forced to join a clan with people in it rather than making my own dojo.  It is unfair that the dojo does not scale to the number of people with in it.  Even if I had to pay for 5 people to build a room I would.  However it seems like I am paying for like 25 people to complete a room.  

 

My question to the Dev team is if you have a solo function on the game; why are you forcing people to join groups?  Maybe some people would like to just play and not be hasselled by clan rules or other players becuase of different playing styles.  Also, why not take into consideration the parents that do not let their kids play with strangers online, but would like for their kid to have the full experiance of the game.

 

(I have no problem that I had to join a clan or have to work for completing a dojo.  However, it seems unfair to those that like to only play solo.) 

[Blatantfool]

The fool, should've locked the thread when he had the opportunity and now it's too late, he is way too involved to do it w/o being ridiculed so someone else has to.

 

 No intention of locking the thread. There is more decent discussion then there is complaining.

[ValiantCorvus]

 And you prove mine by insisting on sticking to this wild exaggeration of your situation in a small clan.

 

 "DE, hold my hand! This is unfair! Why should my clan need to have 30 people! This content should be possible for one squad!"

 

 Maybe you missed the part where this was a clan update, not a squad update.

 

 You are the type of person I was talking about. You'd have them scale everything down to make the smallest clans happy just so you can have the new toys.

 

 If I'm saying "I've got mine" then all you are saying is "I demand a free ride."

I'm fine with working for my gear.

 

Just don't pretend you put any effort into yours.

[Agent_of_Change]

 You are the type of person I was talking about. You'd have them scale everything down to make the smallest clans happy just so you can have the new toys.

 

 If I'm saying "I've got mine" then all you are saying is "I demand a free ride."

 

This is a bit of a misrepresentation of the actual argument.

 

At current as a member of a small clan i have personally fronted at least 1/4 of the required materials for a connector and a reactor.  Mostly because I play more than my clan mates.  when i say small we have 18 members nine of which are "very" active", but we are all friends and I would happily drop with any of them at any given time.  

 

Now here's the thing, I don't mind working for rewards I want to work for the reward, however two things bother me about your response to people asking for a more reasonable approach.

 

1. You are saying people asking for some kind of price adjustment "want a free ride"  from my perspective proportionally you got the free ride compared to myself.  i'm not done, i'm not quitting i;m gonna keep working at the current price until it is adjusted, but standing there as a member of a massive clan and saying "just work for it" is a bit short sighted and a bit hypocritical.  I mean by the time my clan has reached a dojo the size of the warbros (and it will take time) my contribution to building it will likely have been orders of magnitude more than your contribution to your dojo, even if they reduced the costs by half that would still be the case (though i'm not necessarily advocating that.) 

 

2. The secondary implication that the costs are fine so you should just recruit more member or join a big clan.  Personally i find large clans to be pointless, I mean the idea at it's core to me is a group of people you want to play games with so pretty much as a rule if i can't know them all personally and at least remember names then there is no point.  The costs should be viable for a group of 20-30ish players, which they are if everyone is very active, but it is on the outside of that for short to medium time frame.  We are estimating likely at best 1 room completed a week and at that rate my dojo is done in months not days, fine so be it but i'm not sure that the intent was that you had to have a massive clan to see the new weapons before update 9 comes out.

 

 

Personally i think that the costs could probably come down a hair, the drop rate of some rarer mats should be increased a little, and that the forma issue needs to be addressed, hopefully just a lower amount needed. but on the whole the dojo is attainable for smaller groups as is, you do just need to put the time in if it's worth it to you.  i don't think it's valid for someone involved in a mega clan to tell the small clans who do have to really work for it and have objections to the massive grind "just work harder".

Edited May 28, 2013 by Agent_of_Change

[Wellthen]

I'm fine with working for my gear.

 

Just don't pretend you put any effort into yours.

I don't think you grasp the dynamic that applies to larger groups accomplishing things more easily than smaller groups. 

 

Please don't pretend that the people who contributed in Warbros did any less than people in any other clan. In all likelihood, the ones who contributed did MORE on average because of how quickly things were built; they rushed in all their resources as quickly as possible so they felt the satisfaction of pulling their weight before someone else did it.

[ValiantCorvus]

I don't think you grasp the dynamic that applies to larger groups accomplishing things more easily than smaller groups. 

You have more people to donate, thus individual material requirements are less.  And don't even try to tell me that only a small group of them contributed all the materials for everything they have right now, since that's obviously a load of crap.

 

Not that complicated.

Edited May 28, 2013 by ValiantCorvus

[Wellthen]

This is a bit of a misrepresentation of the actual argument.

 

At current as a member of a small clan i have personally fronted at least 1/4 of the required materials for a connector and a reactor.  Mostly because I play more than my clan mates.  when i say small we have 18 members nine of which are "very" active", but we are all friends and I would happily drop with any of them at any given time.  

 

As a member of Warbros, I've contributed over 55k ferrite, 6k alloy plate, 17k circuits, 115k nanospores, 3k plastids, 22k polymer bundles, 65k salvage, and over 350k credits. Please tell me how we're all getting a free ride.

[Derpius]

In this scenario of mildly childish and vaguely insulting things going back and forth, how did you not get a 'free ride' either?

 

I do not know how the other clan organizes themselves, but Warbros do not recruit randomly, we grew to this size because our active discussion in our community attracted hundreds of new players to this game. When the dojo was announced, we immediately started to hoard material in preparation for the next patch, and when it did hit, we were able to start construction right away and with the donation of plat from several generous members of our clan, we rushed everything. While not every member contributed equally, it is still the cumulative effort of everybody that we got things done so quickly.

 

TL:DR Warbros didn't magically get huge. It took months of advertising and organizing.

 

Those who wish to keep a small clan can bypass this tasks but they have to make up for it through more grinding for each individual player. Players are a form of resource.

[Blatantfool]

As a member of Warbros, I've contributed over 55k ferrite, 6k alloy plate, 17k circuits, 115k nanospores, 3k plastids, 22k polymer bundles, 65k salvage, and over 350k credits. Please tell me how we're all getting a free ride.

 

 Wellthen isn't the only person with numbers like this either. Warbros members are always able and always willing to help.

[Wellthen]

You have more people to donate, thus individual material requirements are less.  And don't even try to tell me that only a small group of them contributed all the materials for everything they have right now, since that's obviously a load of crap.

 

Not that complicated.

Taken on May 9th, before I went into heavy farming mode. 

 

So why is that "obviously" a load of crap? Do you even farm?

[Dagnome]

Without sounding like "That guy" can we keep the thread on topic instead of "glorifying the status" of the Warbros clan? Once Warbros is all that is talked about (Which i've seen hat named mentioned one to many times already) it becomes advertisement.

[Agent_of_Change]

As a member of Warbros, I've contributed over 55k ferrite, 6k alloy plate, 17k circuits, 115k nanospores, 3k plastids, 22k polymer bundles, 65k salvage, and over 350k credits. Please tell me how we're all getting a free ride.

 

I;m not saying you are getting a free ride, where did i say that?

 

if you can point it out i'd be happy to discuss it.

 

My point was that my contribution approaches what your is already and we haven't even finished our reactor yet.  By the time we finish our research rooms (not even a grand hall or sparring room) our lowest contributor will likely have put up numbers exceeding the contributions you are clearly proud of and you should be it's an impressive amount.  At the end of the day telling people in smaller groups that they should just have to work harder when they are already working orders of magnitude harder than the AVERAGE member of a mega-clan is wrong headed.

 

I t has already been acknowledged that the numbers were skewed by mega-clans and will likely be adjusted.  Personally i find the OP's post ridiculous but no more so than the sentiment I originally responded to.

 

(I'm not hating on mega-clans, it's a choice and they built something big and impressive but it's not for me or many people and it should definitely not be the standard by which things are calibrated.)

Edited May 28, 2013 by Agent_of_Change

[Wellthen]

I;m not saying you are getting a free ride, where did i say that?

 

if you can point it out i'd be happy to discuss it.

 

My point was that my contribution approaches what your is already and we haven't even finished our reactor yet.  By the time we finish our research rooms (not even a grand hall or sparring room) our lowest contributor will likely have put up numbers exceeding the contributions you are clearly proud of.  At the end of the day telling people in smaller groups that they should just have to work harder when they are already working orders of magnitude harder is wrong headed.

 

I t has already been acknowledged that the numbers were skewed by mega clans and will likely be adjusted.  Personally i find the OP's post ridiculous but no more so than the sentiment I originally responded to.

Your choice to try to do it with less people, it requires x many hours of farming overall to get the resources, if you try to do that with as few as possible then it can and should take you longer.

[Agent_of_Change]

Your choice to try to do it with less people, it requires x many hours of farming overall to get the resources, if you try to do that with as few as possible then it can and should take you longer.

 

I said as much.  the larger point here is that the numbers weren't right to begin with and DE has admitted as much.  Hopefully we'll hear more about it tomorrow.  I don't think a major change is really required but tweaking a few of the requirements a bit would be welcome.

 

Again my only objection was characterizing legitimate criticism as "wanting a free ride" coming from members of a massive group.  It's not the message it's the tone that isn't helpful, everything I've said was about perspective.  If people really wanted a free ride they could apply to one of the massive clans or any of the clans trying to become massive, that's not what this is about.

[Derpius]

I t has already been acknowledged that the numbers were skewed by mega-clans and will likely be adjusted.  Personally i find the OP's post ridiculous but no more so than the sentiment I originally responded to.

 

 

 

They are still adjusting it with a medium sized clan (50~) in mind, those advocating for a solo clan and friend list tier clan will still be crying. IIRC Grineer mentioned that the current cost is based on a bell curve of all clan size. So yes, the super clans skewed it and made things harder for the lesser size clan and I would imagine they wish to adjust their formula to eliminate the outliers.

[Blatantfool]

They are still adjusting it with a medium sized clan (50~) in mind, those advocating for a solo clan and friend list tier clan will still be crying. IIRC Grineer mentioned that the current cost is based on a bell curve of all clan size. So yes, the super clans skewed it and made things harder for the lesser size clan and I would imagine they wish to adjust their formula to eliminate the outliers.

 

 This is also my understanding of the current situation.

 

 500+ isn't the norm. 10 isn't a good place to balance for. 50-100 is different. 

[RhythmError]

Scaling should not happen at all.

 

Low cost to build dojo, so every clan can do it.  Keep the forma option there, people can do it slowly with RNG in game or real money to push through.  Both sides are happy, but absolutely remove the huge resource requirement for clan dojos so anyone can make them.  I know this system was put in like this to avoid more of the players saying it is a pay only option but since forma can be purchased or attained without purchase that point is moot.

 

High cost to research the items themselves PER PLAYER.  Content then comes in at the same pace for everyone and DE gets what they want out of it, people gathering content slower and staying in game.  The only thing they can power through then is spending real money to build the dojo, but getting the items out of it still takes the same time for everyone, a huge personal investment in resources and time.

 

Low cost dojo, high cost items INDIVIDUALLY per player, not per Clan.  Scaling is absolutely not needed at all.

This is a very interesting idea. I honestly think that this game would make it more balanced for the overall "clan members and dojo" issue. I haven't really acknowledged the difficulty of building rooms with the small clan my friends and I are currently in. (We're currently 5 members large with 4 active members.) We've been happy with the fact that we're just about to build the first room of our dojo..none of us actually acknowledged the research rooms and the dojos as well. Now that I have to think about it, we're going to take several months just to be on-par with the larger clans.

 

The most active players of the clan (being myself and my friend) have recently reset our accounts due to bad plat purchases...yeah, it affects all of us at some point. The two of us USED to have all the resources we would ever need before dojos and clans came to be. I'm not necessarily complaining, I'm just stating the facts. Several people reset and have anticipated the reset, now they have to work even harder to catch up to those that didn't.

 

I think that the research portion should only benefit the people who actually take the time to earn the resources and not allow "piggy-backing" to become an option. Good weapons should be available to active players, not players who sit around and let other people do the work for them. I like his idea and I'll stand by it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by RhythmError

[Agent_of_Change]

They are still adjusting it with a medium sized clan (50~) in mind, those advocating for a solo clan and friend list tier clan will still be crying. IIRC Grineer mentioned that the current cost is based on a bell curve of all clan size. So yes, the super clans skewed it and made things harder for the lesser size clan and I would imagine they wish to adjust their formula to eliminate the outliers.

 

This is exactly what they should be doing, and that why they are doing it.  

[ValiantCorvus]

Taken on May 9th, before I went into heavy farming mode. 

 

So why is that "obviously" a load of crap? Do you even farm?

You and thousands of others have done just as much, probably MORE than this.  So why the forum S#&$storm?  Read my other posts again, because it's obviously not clicking.

 

Your rewards are exponentially higher than most other players simply because of the fact that you're in a large clan, not because you worked any harder than any other player.  That's the root of all the forum crying.

 

Me?  I don't care, really.  I'm fine with my 8 player clan of friends in voice chat and I'm not gonna join a 1000+ guild of strangers just to get a few more guns.  We'll get everything as we can.

 

But don't go around flaunting the "You guys just need to work harder" badge, because that's just a load of crap.  You didn't work any harder than anyone else to get their dojo things and are reeping the benefits of being in a large clan, don't pretend otherwise.

Edited May 28, 2013 by ValiantCorvus

[Derpius]

You and thousands of others have done just as much, probably MORE than this.  So why the forum S#&$storm?  Read my other posts again, because it's obviously not clicking.

 

Your rewards are exponentially higher than most other players simply because of the fact that you're in a large guild, not because you worked any harder than any other player.  That's the root of all the forum crying.

 

Me?  I don't care, really.  I'm fine with my 8 player guild of friends in voice chat and I'm not gonna join a 1000+ guild of strangers just to get a few more guns.  We'll get everything as we can.

 

But don't go around flaunting the "You guys just need to work harder" badge, because that's just a load of crap.  You didn't work any harder than anyone else to get their dojo things and are reeping the benefits of being in a large guild, don't pretend otherwise.

 

As I've said before, players are a form of resource and gathering players takes time. After we finish researching, the individuals who wishes to own these weapons would still have to purchase the blueprint and spent resources to build it in the foundry. If all 1000+ member wants it, it would be built 1000+ times which is a significantly larger amount of resource than having the weapon for every member of a 10 member clan. It is not like by finishing the dojo, each member were given free weapons.