Mesa's 4Th Is Actually Pretty Decent

[SnowzSan]

I didn't need to adjust my build, thankfully. Short of replacing Vigor for Stretch. Overall it's not nearly as bad as I once thought it was going to be.

But it brings up a very curious question. With this "nerf" Mesa is now a very technical frame, requiring skill to use. This is what the community wants, right? Skilled players reaping the benefits of frames, not everyone? So my suggestion is removing ALL AoE nukes from the game (Saryn, Oberon, Ember, etc) and replacing them with more precise ults.

 

It doesn't matter how useful it is, just remove it and replace it with something else. Let's be honest. There is zero reason why they should exist, but a million reasons as to why they shouldn't. No more AoE damage ults, just technical.

 

Disagreeing with this, but with the Mesa "nerf" makes your opinion invalid. The idea is to remove "4toWin" frames, which is only accomplished by removing all scrubbie ults.

[LilLemay]

-snip-

I see what you mean, but prepare yourself for lots of salt from other players man

[Torsa]

Most ults don't do nearly as much damage as Mesa's peacemaker does hence the problem.

 

Ignore Saryn for that comment she is getting a rework and we have no idea whats going to happen at this stage.

[SnowzSan]

I see what you mean, but prepare yourself for lots of salt from other players man

It's fine. I understand where they'd be coming from, since I was in the same wagon, but really, this makes the game more fun. Adding challenge helps reduce the illusion of "grinding" and end game is just player opinion. No one is telling people they have to run T4's, they just want to.

Most ults don't do nearly as much damage as Mesa's peacemaker does hence the problem.

 

Ignore Saryn for that comment she is getting a rework and we have no idea whats going to happen at this stage.

But the damage wasn't the issue. It was the AoE it had.

[Torsa]

But the damage wasn't the issue. It was the AoE it had.

 

Well both where to be fair 50m range on any ult is massive coupled with that damage output. Something had to change.

[XenosInfinity]

There's a difference between an ult which provides radial damage and crowd control, and an ult which immediately one-shots every enemy that enters your line of sight until you run out of energy.

 

Peacemaker was unquestionably broken, not specifically because of its damage, but because of its combined range, damage and potential to allow someone to go entirely AFK with their Fire button taped down. The closest abilities we have in effectiveness for farming to that are World on Fire, which has a fairly limited range, and Mend/Maim, which only does small amounts of damage over time and requires actively killing enemies to power the attack up.

 

TL;DR: Mesa wasn't press 4 to win, she was press 4 to farm entire mission with no further input.

[Torsa]

There's a difference between an ult which provides radial damage and crowd control, and an ult which immediately one-shots every enemy that enters your line of sight until you run out of energy.

 

Peacemaker was unquestionably broken, not specifically because of its damage, but because of its combined range, damage and potential to allow someone to go entirely AFK with their Fire button taped down. The closest abilities we have in effectiveness for farming to that are World on Fire, which has a fairly limited range, and Mend/Maim, which only does small amounts of damage over time and requires actively killing enemies to power the attack up.

 

TL;DR: Mesa wasn't press 4 to win, she was press 4 to farm entire mission with no further input.

 

I agree.

 

I personally love my Mesa even more now I have gone 1hr solo in a T4 survival with her before and I did it again tonight and the directed nature of peacemaker now makes it a lot more viable to use to take out small to large groups of hostiles in a specific area.

 

In the mission I did tonight I ran around a corner into the face to 6 heavy gunners 40mins in and just activated peacemaker and pointed it at them and fire a few seconds later they where all gone.

Don't get me wrong doing that with my solo build cost me a fair chunk of energy but the fact that it will no longer shoot the lancer behind me that I don't give a S#&$ about is amazing.

[(PSN)Mordeshkaiser]

Though I appreciate the need for skill over 4tokillall abilities, some frames with the ability to dive into a crowd, hit their ult and if not kill, stun(in some fashion) a group of enemies surrounding an ally giving you time to revive them before the next onslaught is just nice, and makes you feel like a bad***. I have been looking into new ways to play mesa more technically, and though I don't like my favorite lazy exp farming method gone (takes less time to do a grind, making it more efficient), I'll roll with it cause I love Mesa as a whole and want to explore more gameplay options, and will definitely try some new builds with her once the Update comes out. This isn't about agreeing with or disagreeing with the changes, wether a "nerf" or "boon" This statement is about accepting that things change, and I will roll with it and adapt as best I can as a player.

 

Tl;dr: I don't think all aoe ults should be replaced/removed, maybe toned down if it's such a big deal (similar to old Excal Javelin Nuke to what it is now) and/or maybe provide more of a status effect to it that lets you use your other abilities to finish groups off, making you work a bit more for it.

Edited October 2, 2015 by (PS4)Mordeshkaiser

[Torsa]

will definitely try some new builds with her once the Update comes out.

 

Bro....the update is out that's why we are all discussing it :P

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

I like the Saryn nuke. And the syndicate weapons all have aoe nukes built in. I like X-ray abilities too.

[Kinetos]

Bro....the update is out that's why we are all discussing it :P

Console

[(PSN)Mordeshkaiser]

Bro....the update is out that's why we are all discussing it :P

I'm on console :-P It's not out for me yet. "PSN Member" Bro

[Torsa]

Console

 

Ah right S#&$ I didn't see that. PC for the win I guess lol :P

[(PSN)Mordeshkaiser]

Ah right S#&$ I didn't see that. PC for the win I guess lol :P

No worries lol. I have a PC account, but hardly any real work on it, so just gonna be patient and see how it feels when it hits, and watch the discussions to prepare for it.

Edited October 2, 2015 by (PS4)Mordeshkaiser

[Torsa]

No worries lol. I have a PC account, but hardly any real work on it, so just gonna be patient and see how it feels when it hits, and watch the discussions to prepare for it.

 

While she is not as good of a turret as before she is amazing in a general build for solo work where you only want to use peacemaker to hit specific hostiles and that's it. Bit like the whole heavy gunner in front lancer behind I never used to use peacemaker because half the time she would shoot the @(*()$ lancer first this change allows me to target the gunner and only the gunner.

[SnowzSan]

While she is not as good of a turret as before she is amazing in a general build for solo work where you only want to use peacemaker to hit specific hostiles and that's it. Bit like the whole heavy gunner in front lancer behind I never used to use peacemaker because half the time she would shoot the @(*()$ lancer first this change allows me to target the gunner and only the gunner.

 

I appreciate your opinion dude, but I'm not really talking about Mesa's ult viability. Just discussing 360 AoEs in general.

 

Though I appreciate the need for skill over 4tokillall abilities, some frames with the ability to dive into a crowd, hit their ult and if not kill, stun(in some fashion) a group of enemies surrounding an ally giving you time to revive them before the next onslaught is just nice, and makes you feel like a bad***. I have been looking into new ways to play mesa more technically, and though I don't like my favorite lazy exp farming method gone (takes less time to do a grind, making it more efficient), I'll roll with it cause I love Mesa as a whole and want to explore more gameplay options, and will definitely try some new builds with her once the Update comes out. This isn't about agreeing with or disagreeing with the changes, wether a "nerf" or "boon" This statement is about accepting that things change, and I will roll with it and adapt as best I can as a player.

 

Tl;dr: I don't think all aoe ults should be replaced/removed, maybe toned down if it's such a big deal (similar to old Excal Javelin Nuke to what it is now) and/or maybe provide more of a status effect to it that lets you use your other abilities to finish groups off, making you work a bit more for it.

Sorry for the late replies, had to go grab a roast. Decided that was for dinner but didn't have one apparently.

To clarify I'm talking about 360 AoE effects. While I can appreciate that they're useful (So was Mesa's) they're not necessary and promote the wrong style of gameplay according to the mass of the community. The big argument during Mesa's review was her AoE was too big while some argued it was too powerful (it wasn't, by any means) and as much as I hated to, I had to agree. It was. After using Mesa's new ability, it's actually a breath of fresh air. Before, the frame was boring. I loved the art style so I kept using it, but the frame's ult was boring as hell. With the revamp, it's better than ever (while not pissing off every frame she plays with).

But think about it. She's rooted to the ground during her ult. It has a FoV AoE that gradually shrinks with use. While I really like this, there are other frames that can AoE instantly and still move. Take Mirage and Prism, Oberon and Reckoning, Saryn and Miasma, Rhino and Stomp, Loki and Radial Disarm, etc. It doesn't make sense to root Mesa and nerf her range/AoE while leaving every other frame mobile and deadly. While I can appreciate the boost in damage, it doesn't nullify the fact that she's immobile.

There is no reason, short of CC, to have a 360 arc on AoE. While anyone can appreciate CC, it usually immobilizes enemies which makes the frame OP.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

Did her fourth need tweaking? Absolutely. But to completely change it and then make it more precision driven was the wrong direction. If you want precision, you have a primary, secondary, and a melee weapon for precision if you want to be rewarded for it. Aiming percentage, headshots, combo damage, etc. are all precision type "rewards". Powers are just that, Powers. They should look, feel, and act like something supernatural or above and beyond what is "normally possible". It seems the over riding issue with all of the "it's OP, nerf it" threads is that the powers equal "4 to win" which basically equates to map clearing. You want them to be more team oriented, silence the complaining, and still have them have that over the top feel and play? Simple, change the ranges, change the energy consumption, give it a recharge or cool down period, basically make it so that it is impossible to clear the map for an entire mission. 

 

As for the 360 issue, leave it in. That adds to the fact that this is a power erupting from a character able to draw on those primal forces and not something so controlled it has to be aimed like a sniper rifle. AoE's are a standard part of warfare. It is asinine to think a faction as advanced as the Tenno would not use this type of warfare to fight. When I throw a grenade or use a M203 40mm grenade launcher, it doesn't explode in a cone or only cover a front arc, or only hit what I aimed at. It obliterates everything inside it's AoE. That's what it's for. Again, tone it down, don't change how it works or looks.

 

Please DE, stop changing things that are cool about the game to fit complaints and start making these signature powers you have given the frames fit the game instead. Mesa should not be a auto turret that renders the rest of the squad moot when she fires up Peacemaker, but to take such a cool power and basically just turn it into a glorified primary was the wrong approach. There are already enough primary weapons in the game. 

[SnowzSan]

Did her fourth need tweaking? Absolutely. But to completely change it and then make it more precision driven was the wrong direction. If you want precision, you have a primary, secondary, and a melee weapon for precision if you want to be rewarded for it. Aiming percentage, headshots, combo damage, etc. are all precision type "rewards". Powers are just that, Powers. They should look, feel, and act like something supernatural or above and beyond what is "normally possible". It seems the over riding issue with all of the "it's OP, nerf it" threads is that the powers equal "4 to win" which basically equates to map clearing. You want them to be more team oriented, silence the complaining, and still have them have that over the top feel and play? Simple, change the ranges, change the energy consumption, give it a recharge or cool down period, basically make it so that it is impossible to clear the map for an entire mission. 

 

As for the 360 issue, leave it in. That adds to the fact that this is a power erupting from a character able to draw on those primal forces and not something so controlled it has to be aimed like a sniper rifle. AoE's are a standard part of warfare. It is asinine to think a faction as advanced as the Tenno would not use this type of warfare to fight. When I throw a grenade or use a M203 40mm grenade launcher, it doesn't explode in a cone or only cover a front arc, or only hit what I aimed at. It obliterates everything inside it's AoE. That's what it's for. Again, tone it down, don't change how it works or looks.

 

Please DE, stop changing things that are cool about the game to fit complaints and start making these signature powers you have given the frames fit the game instead. Mesa should not be a auto turret that renders the rest of the squad moot when she fires up Peacemaker, but to take such a cool power and basically just turn it into a glorified primary was the wrong approach. There are already enough primary weapons in the game. 

I thought the same thing about adjusting efficiency (such as making each shot count as one energy) or making it last 10 seconds (mods increase this) and have a cool down of 1 minute or something, or even just changing the range, but the community had already spoken. At that point, there was no point in even making that argument anymore. This isn't to say that it's useless now, but you are right that there is nothing separating it from the primaries/secondaries, with the exception that you can precision aim with both the latter.

I feel Mesa will never be considered a "good frame" (same tier as Loki or Saryn) ever again, but that's just the way it is. Will I still use her? Sure. She's a tank. But will it ever REALLY be anywhere close to the same? Nope. Fell in love with peacemaker. Not just for the $&*&*#(%& range, but because of the animation, the feel, and the sheer usefulness of being surrounded and just pressing 4 to thin the crowd. Now, if you end up getting surrounded, be ready to use a revive or hope there is a big enough opening to escape.

Remember what DE said though... "She performs the way they originally intended now." What I find funny is that Mesa got nerfed and the whole community ejaculated simultaneously, but as soon as the news about Mag broke out, everyone went into a frenzy... Well you call for nerfs, and you get nerfs. That's how this game works. Once the ball starts rolling, they have to keep going to balance. This is definitely not where it's going to end. There will be PLENTY of nerfs in the future. Some you wouldn't even expect but since all the other frames were nerfed, this unsuspecting frame became OP by comparison.

The community will kill this game, strangely enough. What DE fails to realize is that they could simply lose the few players that cry about their toy not being the top pick, and pick up more. Tenno's are super soldiers. Just like the Master Chief, or Nathan Drake (comparatively to his competition) or even Mario. People don't want to be regular. You can do that in your every day life. You want to be the badass because it's an escape from reality. But yet, people keep asking for reality to be injected, slowly killing the game.

Just my two cents. I'm not mad about the Mesa nerf because she's still viable for me, but there were better options than an FoV 4th.

[October0Night]

I agree.

I personally love my Mesa even more now I have gone 1hr solo in a T4 survival with her before and I did it again tonight and the directed nature of peacemaker now makes it a lot more viable to use to take out small to large groups of hostiles in a specific area.

In the mission I did tonight I ran around a corner into the face to 6 heavy gunners 40mins in and just activated peacemaker and pointed it at them and fire a few seconds later they where all gone.

Don't get me wrong doing that with my solo build cost me a fair chunk of energy but the fact that it will no longer shoot the lancer behind me that I don't give a S#&$ about is amazing.

This all of it. Love the fact that it now kills what I need killed instead of some random enemy on the other side of the map