Nvidia Physx Capability?

[DomoSapien]

Is Warframe hard-coded to allow Physx on only Nvidia cards? I'm typically capable of running physx on other games that have them(Borderlands 2, Crysis, etc) with my Xfired HD 7870's, but I can't for this game. Any known bugs of it being disabled or is it just simply hardcoded for Nvidia cards only?

[DAwGi]

From my understanding, it depends on how the devs set it up.  If they set up Physx to run only on the GPU, then you're screwed because Nvidia owns PhysX and will not share it with AMD.  If they set it to run on the CPU, then you're computer can always run it.  It soon will not make sense to run PhysX on GPUs only, since every new console is coming out on AMD based machines.  So for now, I'd rather have Nvidia, but soon games will be developed for AMD first...

[tengenkujaku]

It only works on the GPU. I tried forcing my CPU to be the PhysX handler and WF doesn't allow me to toggle PhysX on.

[Rabcor]

The reason new consoles are coming out with AMD is because AMD is cheaper.

The reason AMD is cheaper i believe is because they use cheaper components. I didn't give AMD a big chance but i did once buy a GPU. Said card was broken from the day of purchase, i managed to prove it was broken (it froze up my entire computer and showed artifacts in certain games for example) and the company gave me another better version of that same card. Turns out that was broken again in another way, finally when i got the third (Next Gen) card it worked fine and i sold the computer and got myself an intel/nvidia setup again and have been happy ever since.

 

I also felt that my computer just wasn't as good while i was on an AMD processor, that may have just been me though but like i said, cheaper components. They're good enough for most people though and that's what's important for them. Thats why smart people who don't need or want the best stuff buy them.

 

As for PhysX being run on the CPU, i think that depends nothing on the devs. I believe PhysX must be run through the nvidia drivers to begin with.

 

Like so:

 

PhysX has always been an nVidia exclusive physics engine.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Rabcor

[GottFaust]

The implementation that this game uses generally requires CUDA cores, which are hardware available only on nvidia cards. If they were to use the non-specific or CPU optimized implementation they could not push nearly as many particles with nearly as complex of movement without a massive frame rate hit.

As to DAwGi's post: the only current gen console that uses an nvidia processor is the PS3, and yet games are still released that use PhysX. It's not a matter of who makes it, it's a matter of the visual impact vs performance lost. Havok is low-footprint, but not nearly as capable as PhysX, so you see a lot of console games and console ported games using it due to power constraints. PhysX has a much larger hardware footprint, and in some implementations requires specific hardware, but is much more powerful, and can therefore provide a greater visual impact. This, a lot of games will use engines like Havok, but games that want impressive particles and other physics based effects will tend to gravitate towards PhysX.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Asus ROG with Nvidia.

 

'nuff said 8)

[DomoSapien]

The reason new consoles are coming out with AMD is because AMD is cheaper.

The reason AMD is cheaper i believe is because they use cheaper components. I didn't give AMD a big chance but i did once buy a GPU. Said card was broken from the day of purchase, i managed to prove it was broken (it froze up my entire computer and showed artifacts in certain games for example) and the company gave me another better version of that same card. Turns out that was broken again in another way, finally when i got the third (Next Gen) card it worked fine and i sold the computer and got myself an intel/nvidia setup again and have been happy ever since.

 

I also felt that my computer just wasn't as good while i was on an AMD processor, that may have just been me though but like i said, cheaper components. They're good enough for most people though and that's what's important for them. Thats why smart people who don't need or want the best stuff buy them.

 

As for PhysX being run on the CPU, i think that depends nothing on the devs. I believe PhysX must be run through the nvidia drivers to begin with.

 

Like so:

 

PhysX has always been an nVidia exclusive physics engine.

 

 

The implementation that this game uses generally requires CUDA cores, which are hardware available only on nvidia cards. If they were to use the non-specific or CPU optimized implementation they could not push nearly as many particles with nearly as complex of movement without a massive frame rate hit.

As to DAwGi's post: the only current gen console that uses an nvidia processor is the PS3, and yet games are still released that use PhysX. It's not a matter of who makes it, it's a matter of the visual impact vs performance lost. Havok is low-footprint, but not nearly as capable as PhysX, so you see a lot of console games and console ported games using it due to power constraints. PhysX has a much larger hardware footprint, and in some implementations requires specific hardware, but is much more powerful, and can therefore provide a greater visual impact. This, a lot of games will use engines like Havok, but games that want impressive particles and other physics based effects will tend to gravitate towards PhysX.

I can understand the performance hit on AMD machines for Physx considering it's not their homebase but physx arent only restricted to Nvidia cards. As I said in my post, I can run Nvidias physx on borderlands 2. Even on maxed physx ratio and still get 55 fps. So it is up to the developer to allow it but at the same time, I think there are SOME portions of the physx engine that are compatible with AMD cards. Liquid coding I believe is on of the open source pieces of the nvidia physx engine. I may be wrong but I know that physx isnt Nvidia exlusive. Yes they own it, but its capable of being used on AMD cards as well. I have no idea why on some games its activated and others its not for AMD users... The old 5750 HD actually had physx built into it whcih was pretty cool. I had that card for 3 years before upgrading to what I posted above. I think the hk HD series was on of AMD/ATI's series that has physx pre-installed and integrated onto the card.

 

 

Can any DE provide an answer to why my Physx may be disabled on an AMD card OR if your version just isnt compatible at all?

[DomoSapien]

The reason new consoles are coming out with AMD is because AMD is cheaper.

The reason AMD is cheaper i believe is because they use cheaper components. I didn't give AMD a big chance but i did once buy a GPU. Said card was broken from the day of purchase, i managed to prove it was broken (it froze up my entire computer and showed artifacts in certain games for example) and the company gave me another better version of that same card. Turns out that was broken again in another way, finally when i got the third (Next Gen) card it worked fine and i sold the computer and got myself an intel/nvidia setup again and have been happy ever since.

I also felt that my computer just wasn't as good while i was on an AMD processor, that may have just been me though but like i said, cheaper components. They're good enough for most people though and that's what's important for them. Thats why smart people who don't need or want the best stuff buy them.

AMD is cheaper because their parts are cheaper yes, however, that spoiler case you put above; thats just any typical knock at a company you could find. You can find the same thing for Nvidia cards about people having consistent DOA's or meltdowns. It 100% depends on the distributor because all distributors mesh AMD's technology differently on their cards. Example? You hear a lot of good from XFX's dsitributed AMD cards versus' MSI's.

It's kind of why a drink may taste differently at different bars. Drinks have the same compounds but the bartenders may make it slightly differnetly.

Also, AMD whoops Nvidia in processing power and capability with their GPU's, not their CPU's(Don't flip your lid at me for thinking CPU's because, lol, no way). Nvidia is all about its dynamic rendering capability(Fully fleshed physical objects not losing their compounds when they fly across the screen). A major reason why people knock at AMD when compared to Nvidia cards is because, by nature of business, AMD is behind the curve but they develope for different causes and it typically comes out better. Example? When BF3 was released, that was also when Nvidia released their flagship GTX card at the time with the game. Only 1 1/2 years later, the HD 7870 is out, is around $200 cheaper and gets the same exact performance that the GTX of the time did on BF3. AMD is behind the curve, but it's for good reason. Everyone rushes to buy GTX cards and yet AMD has a better pay off when you can get the same performance but for cheaper. When I got my 7870's, I installed only 1 just to test it before i installed the other and I was able to play BF3 on max settings at 70 FPS. The GTX of the time was able to run BF3 at roughly 78 which isnt a very big increase.

Edited May 29, 2013 by 8BitRager

[GottFaust]

I can understand the performance hit on AMD machines for Physx considering it's not their homebase but physx arent only restricted to Nvidia cards. As I said in my post, I can run Nvidias physx on borderlands 2. Even on maxed physx ratio and still get 55 fps. So it is up to the developer to allow it but at the same time, I think there are SOME portions of the physx engine that are compatible with AMD cards. Liquid coding I believe is on of the open source pieces of the nvidia physx engine. I may be wrong but I know that physx isnt Nvidia exlusive. Yes they own it, but its capable of being used on AMD cards as well. I have no idea why on some games its activated and others its not for AMD users... The old 5750 HD actually had physx built into it whcih was pretty cool. I had that card for 3 years before upgrading to what I posted above. I think the hk HD series was on of AMD/ATI's series that has physx pre-installed and integrated onto the card.

Can any DE provide an answer to why my Physx may be disabled on an AMD card OR if your version just isnt compatible at all?

Unfortunately your information is wrong. AMD/ATI never had hardware integrated PhysX. Unfortunately CUDA is required to run GPU-accelerated PhysX implementation s, and that is proprietary to nvidia.

The version that runs on machines with AMD/ATI hardware is the CPU implementation. Until AMD/ATI get CUDA you will never run GPU-accelerated PhysX on their cards.

AMD is cheaper because their parts are cheaper yes, however, that spoiler case you put above; thats just any typical knock at a company you could find. You can find the same thing for Nvidia cards about people having consistent DOA's or meltdowns. It 100% depends on the distributor because all distributors mesh AMD's technology differently on their cards. Example? You hear a lot of good from XFX's dsitributed AMD cards versus' MSI's.

It's kind of why a drink may taste differently at different bars. Drinks have the same compounds but the bartenders may make it slightly differnetly.

Also, AMD whoops Nvidia in processing power and capability with their GPU's, not their CPU's(Don't flip your lid at me for thinking CPU's because, lol, no way). Nvidia is all about its dynamic rendering capability(Fully fleshed physical objects not losing their compounds when they fly across the screen). A major reason why people knock at AMD when compared to Nvidia cards is because, by nature of business, AMD is behind the curve but they develope for different causes and it typically comes out better. Example? When BF3 was released, that was also when Nvidia released their flagship GTX card at the time with the game. Only 1 1/2 years later, the HD 7870 is out, is around $200 cheaper and gets the same exact performance that the GTX of the time did on BF3. AMD is behind the curve, but it's for good reason. Everyone rushes to buy GTX cards and yet AMD has a better pay off when you can get the same performance but for cheaper. When I got my 7870's, I installed only 1 just to test it before i installed the other and I was able to play BF3 on max settings at 70 FPS. The GTX of the time was able to run BF3 at roughly 78 which isnt a very big increase.

This post is full of circular logic and self contradiction. You should probably edit it a bit.

Edited May 29, 2013 by GottFaust

[DomoSapien]

@Unfortunately your information is wrong. AMD/ATI never had hardware integrated PhysX. Unfortunately CUDA is required to run GPU-accelerated PhysX implementation s, and that is proprietary to nvidia.

 

 

If I find the box somewhere around here, I'll take a picture of it. It said "Physx enabled hardware". Could be wrong about its exact meaning but this was ON the box and was also imprinted on the card. And if it was enabled to go throught the CPU, it wouldnt have been put on the card in the first place. Again, I'll look for the box.

 

HD 5750 was quickly taken off the market because it was underpriced and AMD got a bit stiffed on their profit. When the 6K HD series was released, the 5750 HD was extremely hard to find.

Edited May 30, 2013 by 8BitRager

[Cheradenine]

AMD having PhysX on ANY card is completely new to me, and I thought I was quite informed about their portfolio. 

 

I actually wonder why Warframe forces Nvidia GPUs. Since they use PhysX3 it SHOULD work on ANY CPU, and quite well at that. Of course not at the same level as a dedicated PPU (or NV's current equivalent of that), but what the hell, at least something :-)

 

I vote they make the PhysX optional, like Mirror's Edge did or something. It will bring some PC's to their knees if enabled, but that's the choice of the player then.

 

Also it would enable ME to try my Hybrid PhysX :D

[GottFaust]

@Unfortunately your information is wrong. AMD/ATI never had hardware integrated PhysX. Unfortunately CUDA is required to run GPU-accelerated PhysX implementation s, and that is proprietary to nvidia.

If I find the box somewhere around here, I'll take a picture of it. It said "Physx enabled hardware". Could be wrong about its exact meaning but this was ON the box and was also imprinted on the card. And if it was enabled to go throught the CPU, it wouldnt have been put on the card in the first place. Again, I'll look for the box.

HD 5750 was quickly taken off the market because it was underpriced and AMD got a bit stiffed on their profit. When the 6K HD series was released, the 5750 HD was extremely hard to find.

I looked up a whole wealth of information, and scoured the Internet for pictures of the 5750 box and card. Absolutely no mention of PhysX. Either the entire Internet has been scorched clean of this information or you are misinformed.

AMD having PhysX on ANY card is completely new to me, and I thought I was quite informed about their portfolio.

I actually wonder why Warframe forces Nvidia GPUs. Since they use PhysX3 it SHOULD work on ANY CPU, and quite well at that. Of course not at the same level as a dedicated PPU (or NV's current equivalent of that), but what the hell, at least something :-)

I vote they make the PhysX optional, like Mirror's Edge did or something. It will bring some PC's to their knees if enabled, but that's the choice of the player then.

Also it would enable ME to try my Hybrid PhysX :D

They reiterated my previous statement on the latest livestream. The implementation they use requires CUDA cores to run. Unless there's a CPU out there with CUDA cores on it or AMD/ATI get them (not going to happen any time soon) PhysX in this game will not be available on AMD/ATI systems.

For the record there are three types of PhysX implementations. There's the CPU-optimized implementation that's setup specifically to run on your CPU, the hybrid implementation that can run on either the CPU or CUDA enabled GPU, and then there's the GPU-accelerated implementation. Of all three the GPU version is the fastest and most powerful. This game uses that version. If they were to implement either other version they would have to drastically reduce the particle count or cut out most, if not all, complex movement of said particles or risk a massive performance drop even on nvidia hardware. Ruining a feature for half of the player base in order to allow a feature that is rarely enabled by the other half seems a bad decision to me. Most people who actually care about PhysX go for nvidia cards already anyway.

Edited May 30, 2013 by GottFaust

[Cr4p]

PPU

A physics processing unit (PPU) is a processor specially designed to alleviate the calculation burden on the CPU, specifically calculations involving physics. PPU cards with PhysX support were available from the manufacturers ASUS, BFG Technologies^[13] and ELSA Technology. Beginning with version 2.8.3 of the PhysX SDK, support for PPU cards was dropped, and PPU cards are no longer manufactured.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhysX#Hardware_acceleration

[Cheradenine]

Ok, I stand corrected on the wrongly used "PPU".

 

Anyway: I (sort of^^) know about the different implementations, what I simply don't get with my limited understanding of programming such things, is why I cannot activate PhysX with a hybrid PhysX Setup. I have a GT 640, fully capable of rendering all those pretty particles. I actually bought that just for Warframe, only to find out it doesn't work. Works on most other things though. (Main card is 7970)

 

So unless my brain is trolling me or something, I'm still convinced my 640 can render PhysX. GPU accelerated, as you say.

[GottFaust]

Ok, I stand corrected on the wrongly used "PPU".

 

Anyway: I (sort of^^) know about the different implementations, what I simply don't get with my limited understanding of programming such things, is why I cannot activate PhysX with a hybrid PhysX Setup. I have a GT 640, fully capable of rendering all those pretty particles. I actually bought that just for Warframe, only to find out it doesn't work. Works on most other things though. (Main card is 7970)

 

So unless my brain is trolling me or something, I'm still convinced my 640 can render PhysX. GPU accelerated, as you say.

Oh it can, but nvidia has specifically disabled PhysX at the driver level on systems that also have an AMD/ATI card installed. They cite stability, performance, and compatibility issues.

There used to be a user-made hack to re enable it, but I don't know if the creator supports it anymore with the latest drivers.

[Cheradenine]

The hack is still working, have it installed right now, enables me to use PhysX on everything but A New Dawn and Warframe.

As far as I know there are currently no plans to hack PhysX3 as well, because that functions on any CPU quite well. 

 

Seems like I have to wait until someone has the time and the means to give me my pretty explosions :)