Primary/secondary/melee Needs To Go- Please Read Devs

[Kratier]

From a design perspective to allow for your team to be more successful with their weapon creations ,you guys need to change this format.

 

If i want to use only a bow, why can't I? Why do I need 5 different weapons? a bow, dual pistols, dual swords

 

I would like to see a weapon system that encourages me to experiment with my use of different weapons. I want to use my Lex as my main weapon and be allowed to mod it accordingly.

 

The system I would suggest I won't go into detail, but the basic concept would be Slots. Players would have 5 total slots. Each weapon could be given a total number of slots based on its effectiveness, so instead of being forced to balance each gun individually on a one to one basis you could just rate it a higher number of slots. A powerful pistol that is effective could be rated 3 slots, a weak side arm pistol could be 1 slot. The heavy hammer could take 2 slots. The gorgon could take 4 slots or even 5.

 

This would allow for the game to be balanced better and encourage weapon combination experimentation to be encouraged. You would not need to keep churning out a new weapon every other week, you could just balance the interplay between the weapons and it would make the game better with each patch and tweak.

 

In further detail I would suggest methods to incorporate better rewards, loot, exp gain, or the one weapon you are using becomes more effective or allowed to be leveled to a higher extent. You could limit the level of the weapon by the number of slots it is using. This way if someone wanted to use 5 different weapons they could but they would not be effective as being used individually.
 

[Xoxile]

Just gunna put this out there that I don't like this idea, but that's not what I want to discuss. What I want to ask is this;

How would data masses work if one would only carry a rifle?

How do you figure this would be more balanced?

And with this system could you carry multiple melee weapons, and if so how would that fit in with the current melee system.

[MetalGerbil]

the system already allows for making whatever you want a primary. you can easily main a lex. ive run plenty of missions while using only one wep and it never slowed me down.

the devs clearly are "churning" out new weps as a way to keep people interested and make money. nobody would be playing if the original set of weps where "perfected". the game might be better for it but people would get bored and leave.

Edited May 30, 2013 by MetalGerbil

[AndryB94]

I don't see the problem with the current system, and I think it's more than fine. Sorry for not bringing much constructive feedback, but I'm not sure on what I should say.

[Kratier]

I already explained how this would make balancing weapons much easier for the developers.

You probably do not see the problem as a giant wall the development team will hit in the next few months, but let me put it this way:

They have no way to encourage people to buy side arms or melee weapons, they are little more than accessories.

 

If you want people to experiment and use new toys you are going to sell in the future, you need ways to encourage people to use them.

 

 

The big brick wall the development team will hit is that they will continue to pump out primary weapons, new little toys, to distract you for 2 weeks to the next. This is not a long term system. They will not be able to support this system indefinitely. Its the F2P model of game development that always falls flat on its face after 8-9 months. Encourage the use of all weapons.

[AndryB94]

You're wrong in one aspect - a lot of people want to buy some side arms. Twin vipers, for example, have a HUGE DPS (though they burn ammo like hell). The Lex is a very long-range pistol, with low DPS, but with big one-shotting potential. Some people also use Bronco and Akbolto to compensate for their main weapon.

While melee weapons -are- somewhat underpowered, I personally use them very often in Infested missions with very little issues, and only rely on my ranged weapon with some Ancients.

Also, let me ask you two things:
1) Do you know what it is like to be a developer, and in particular a developer for weapon balancing and creation?
2) Do you know what people want or think of the current system?

If you can answer "yes" to both of these questions then I will gladly lend an ear or two to you.

Edit: I currently use a Strun and a Lex. I am sure you understand how these weapons complement eachother.

Edited May 30, 2013 by AndryB94

[Nihiler]

You're wrong in one aspect - a lot of people want to buy some side arms. Twin vipers, for example, have a HUGE DPS (though they burn ammo like hell). The Lex is a very long-range pistol, with low DPS, but with big one-shotting potential. Some people also use Bronco and Akbolto to compensate for their main weapon.

While melee weapons -are- somewhat underpowered, I personally use them very often in Infested missions with very little issues, and only rely on my ranged weapon with some Ancients.

Also, let me ask you two things:

1) Do you know what it is like to be a developer, and in particular a developer for weapon balancing and creation?

2) Do you know what people want or think of the current system?

If you can answer "yes" to both of these questions then I will gladly lend an ear or two to you.

 

^This^

 

I use my sidearm just as much as my primary and my melee weapon. The current system works fine as it is.

[Kratier]

yet again another reply of "its fine"

when its 5 months from now and the majority of the userbase has moved onto the next f2p game, you'll understand

 

the current system is akin to a halflife source mod's alpha , it is not functional and does not support proper balance.

 

sidearms and melee weapons are not encouraged to be used

 

the weapon balancing is on a per case basis which is tedious and contradictory to their development style

 

Remove the current system, replace it with a slot based system. 

A developer will look at this and try to determine what this complaint is truly about, I am not complaining that the sidearms and melee weapons are underpowered and do not compare to the primary. I am complaining because the current systems in place do not encourage using anything but your primary.

 

There are other ways to balance this, you've tried limiting ammo but this never works and you just have people complaining about no ammo and thus you went and made ammo so plentiful I never run out even if I am spamming my primary weapon nonstop.

 

I think the developers of this game do not understand why people like this game and are just supplementing the current audience with what they think they want. Its not what they need, you need to find ways to encourage people to use what content you have made and not resort to endlessly rolling out new content until the limited attention span of the masses shifts to the next F2P game. You have to design systems for long term.

[AndryB94]

To be honest you're the first person I see complaining about this system. The main problem with ammo is that some weapons (Latron, Vulkar, Lex) consume far less ammo than others (Braton, Gorgon, dual vipers) and as such a single +20 ammo pickup is unbalanced. Heavy ammo consumers do not get as big a benefit as low ammo consumers. But that is a different issue.

Also, if people tell you "It's fine", then it might mean that it's actually fine? If you studied statistics you should know what I mean. On a little note, please don't keep that "I know what's right for y'all" tone. If you presented this in a more friendly tone I'd more than gladly read it.

Lastly, please give me a good list of games that don't use this system, compared to a good list of games that use this system.

[TehJumpingJawa]

I see the OP's point; there is a great deal of redundancy in Warframe's weapon selection, and it'll only become more pronounced as the arsenal grows.

Does being able to carry 3 weapons make warframes too universally effective?

Does this universal effectiveness prevent more specialised weaponry from being well balanced?

Would enforced weapon specialisation lead to more involved team play? (closest parallel I can think of would be Valve's f2p Alien Swarm)

I can see problems with Warframe's approach, but I can't see how the OP's suggested 'slots' (weapon weight) system would be any better.

[BlueCremeSoda]

The idea is pretty dumb honestly. Just use a pistol as a primary. Weapons have different attributes. A pistol is not going to naturally have the damage or penetration power of a rifle. Lumping everything in together is just dumb. The way it works is fine. You can experiment and all that, you can main whatever you want.

 

The only real problem is ammo drops.

 

If I want to use a lex I can use a lex. Why do I need encouraged beyond the optional objectives? If I want to main something I can and will main it, it's not that big of a deal. And the loadout is somehow comparable to an alpha game? The most common loadout options for games is a primary and secondary and then a melee if that is applicable. Halo, COD, Battlefield, a number of other games use this system. How is that an alpha feature or system?? I guess all those games are using Source alpha features? It's funny when that's been around and standard for years...

Edited May 30, 2013 by BlueCremeSoda

[Kasamoto]

I'd be happy if there were an unequip function.

 

Not because of the system, not because of weight but for asthetic purpose.

Sometimes I feel like going on an grineer mission with my melee weapon only. To limit myself from using anything else and for once not looking like a weapontrader.

 

However I wouldn't go as far as to throw the current weapon system away - It's got its uses.

 

 

EDIT: You may want to join forces with scaleblue, he's had some thoughts on weaponry weight as well.

(https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38738-why-the-grakata-is-underpowered-and-not-worth-buying/)

Edited May 30, 2013 by Kasamoto

[Carcharias]

OP keeps insisting that the current system "encourages" me to use primary. I don't understand how. When I roll with my Paris I compliment it with Akboltos, guess which weapon platform I use to make more kills. Hint: Paris is highly situational. Never mind that my favorite gun in game as of to date is the Lex (<sidearm) , and I love smashing all manner of mobs with my gram. OP I'm sorry, it sounds like you do know some stuff about game development, but your posts are also filled with generalizations assuming what my preferences are. That's pretty impressive with out even so much as a vote, can you also tell me what my favorite color is? I'd really like to know. Bottom line, when you presume to know me without even so much as knowing my name that level of presumptiveness hurts your debate points. It makes you come across as arrogant, and then a percentage of people (including me) stop listening.

Nothing stops you from using which ever slot you like best. Except maybe ammo consumption. If your favorite is duel broncos, knock your self out and ignore whatever rifle and melee you have. I you love the hammer, ignore your firearms and smash everything. To implement the system you describe would require a complete rework of the guns, mobs, and modding system. I'm not saying it can't be done or that I might even like it better that way, but it's a really huge change. Given what you imply you know about game design you must understand that this suggestion is a pretty extreme solution to a problem that few have ever mentioned and even if your right about the future, we're not there yet. It's hard to solve a problem that doesn't yet exist.

P.S. if you want to use only the bow, go for it, you hereby have my permission to use only the bow in any regular and void mission. GL ! And remember, you asked for it.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Carcharias

[Emotitron]

I actually think they should look into how ME3 handled weapon loadouts. The more weapons you brought, the more weight/burden penalties were incurred. Giving various warframes affinities to certain weapons and weapon types, as well making warframes affect accuracy, ammo capacity and abilities to fire accurately while running could make the warframe/weapon interdependence (and therefore metagame) far more interesting.

 

They are missing a great metagame opportunity with the very simplistic and restrictive loadout options.

[TehJumpingJawa]

I actually think they should look into how ME3 handled weapon loadouts. The more weapons you brought, the more weight/burden penalties were incurred. Giving various warframes affinities to certain weapons and weapon types, as well making warframes affect accuracy, ammo capacity and abilities to fire accurately while running could make the warframe/weapon interdependence (and therefore metagame) far more interesting.

 

They are missing a great metagame opportunity with the very simplistic and restrictive loadout options.

Good point.

ME3 had many flaws, but its MP loadout system was not one of them.

It was a well thought out system that had considerable complexity & depth to it.

[Kishward]

Ok, I get the slot based system. It's not a bad idea for a system or anything I just don't see why it would be necessary in Warframe.

 

The only real difference between your proposed changes, beside the number of weapons you could potentially equip, and the current system is added modifications/bonuses for using less weapons.

 

The weapons would still have to be individually balanced in order to determine the number of slots they would require. Currently it makes sense to equip each weapon with different strengths like (range, rate of fire, armor ignore, stagger, ammo, etc.) so there is synergy in a good loadout. This actually encourages the use of multiple weapons. I mean sure you could just use your Hek for everything but you will not be as effective or versatile as someone with a full proper weapon loadout. Plus it's just not as fun to play like that.

[VScipii26]

I main my pistols any time I'm not using my Strun.

Why?
Because the Lex is a sniper rifle. My dual Broncos are a Hex. Twin Vipers are better than some of the rifles.

Certainly it makes it a little less reward for melee, but you have to consider that melee is fairly dry right now.

So no, I do not believe that we need to change this.

I don't want to watch my Latron clip into a Braton.
I don't want to see a guy have a Braton, Paris, and Strun; he'd be a little too powerful.

Edited May 31, 2013 by VScipii26

[Kratier]

The weapons would still have to be individually balanced in order to determine the number of slots they would require.

This is not how game development works, as they keep adding new weapons the older weapons get put on the back burner.

The way to keep people buying new weapons is by making them more powerful or more interesting. Hence the clan made ROCKET LAUNCHERS.

They will not be going back and trying to re-balance guns from 5 months ago that nobody is buying through the cash shop anymore. Their main motivation in this product is to make money.

 

The way to keep the guns balanced in the long term is to incorporate the slot system, because it will enable them to quickly and easily gauge weapons and get rid of the needless balancing and tweaking of each gun individually. This isn't counterstrike where its a set number of guns and player vs player. This is a PVE game the gun balance can be easily just put into a slot system and they can go crazy with the variations on the guns after that fact. If they don't, they will be stuck in this scenario now where their guns must be tweaked and every player is going to cry foul as their newest FOTM op gun gets nerfed.

 

If you want to release some overpowered rocker launcher or acid throwing energy gun that is going to 1 hit kill everything, make it 5 stars and then quickly balance it through ammo drops or some sort of recharge duration.

 

I can repeat myself all day but I don't think even most of you comprehend the brick wall the dev team is going to hit with their development. If you've played f2p games before, you've seen this over and over again. I suggest a dev look at the development cycle of the past briefly successful f2p games.

[Kishward]

This is not how game development works, as they keep adding new weapons the older weapons get put on the back burner.

The way to keep people buying new weapons is by making them more powerful or more interesting. Hence the clan made ROCKET LAUNCHERS.

They will not be going back and trying to re-balance guns from 5 months ago that nobody is buying through the cash shop anymore. Their main motivation in this product is to make money.

 

Go back and look at the patch notes. They have been balancing the weapons pretty regularly.

[Dipstick]

It would be nice if you could disable a weapon for bonus affinity for a solo run or something

[BlueCremeSoda]

This is not how game development works, as they keep adding new weapons the older weapons get put on the back burner.

The way to keep people buying new weapons is by making them more powerful or more interesting. Hence the clan made ROCKET LAUNCHERS.

They will not be going back and trying to re-balance guns from 5 months ago that nobody is buying through the cash shop anymore. Their main motivation in this product is to make money.

 

The way to keep the guns balanced in the long term is to incorporate the slot system, because it will enable them to quickly and easily gauge weapons and get rid of the needless balancing and tweaking of each gun individually. This isn't counterstrike where its a set number of guns and player vs player. This is a PVE game the gun balance can be easily just put into a slot system and they can go crazy with the variations on the guns after that fact. If they don't, they will be stuck in this scenario now where their guns must be tweaked and every player is going to cry foul as their newest FOTM op gun gets nerfed.

 

If you want to release some overpowered rocker launcher or acid throwing energy gun that is going to 1 hit kill everything, make it 5 stars and then quickly balance it through ammo drops or some sort of recharge duration.

 

I can repeat myself all day but I don't think even most of you comprehend the brick wall the dev team is going to hit with their development. If you've played f2p games before, you've seen this over and over again. I suggest a dev look at the development cycle of the past briefly successful f2p games.

 

You seem to have some of the most asinine arguments about this. They aren't likely to balance things from months and months ago just because no one is buying it, chances are it's balanced where they want it for the most part at that point. New weapons get balanced because once they hit the general public you see them abused and exploited in ways you never intended or thought of or in closed testing you don't see just how broken they can be in general. New weapons are most likely to be the least balanced.

[Kratier]

No, I think you just don't comprehend how f2p games are marketed and designed.

I'm not going to sit here repeating the same statements over and over again to someone who's first game or first f2p game is this one. This is a marketing system and development system that has failed numerous times in the past.

 

I already explained several times now why it fails, and my suggestion is one that alleviates that issue.

 

If you still can't comprehend that fact, I can't help you.

[Vaskadar]

If there was a downvote button still, this topic would have sunk faster than the Titanic.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[ElementLordofMilk]

I already explained how this would make balancing weapons much easier for the developers.

You probably do not see the problem as a giant wall the development team will hit in the next few months, but let me put it this way:

They have no way to encourage people to buy side arms or melee weapons, they are little more than accessories.

 

If you want people to experiment and use new toys you are going to sell in the future, you need ways to encourage people to use them.

 

 

The big brick wall the development team will hit is that they will continue to pump out primary weapons, new little toys, to distract you for 2 weeks to the next. This is not a long term system. They will not be able to support this system indefinitely. Its the F2P model of game development that always falls flat on its face after 8-9 months. Encourage the use of all weapons.

I'm sorry, but WHAT? Are you even playing the same game if you're saying there's no incentive to use or obtain sidearms and melee weapons? Here, let me list some generally considered to be good or great weapons: Scindo, Gram, Dual Ethers, Glaive, Dual Zoren, Dual Vipers, Akboltos, Lex, Kunai, Despair. All of those are secondary or melee. Especially Lex and Dual vipers are commonly considered some of the best weapons in the game, alongside such favourites as the Hek or Gorgon. They are HARDLY little more than accessories.

[BlueCremeSoda]

No, I think you just don't comprehend how f2p games are marketed and designed.

I'm not going to sit here repeating the same statements over and over again to someone who's first game or first f2p game is this one. This is a marketing system and development system that has failed numerous times in the past.

 

I already explained several times now why it fails, and my suggestion is one that alleviates that issue.

 

If you still can't comprehend that fact, I can't help you.

 

Nice assumptions there. I've been playing F2P games since they basically came about. But go on, I don't agree with you and think your ideas are stupid to be honest, so make assumptions about me and others that we don't have a clue about anything. You also seem to be the only one here who thinks that the current system is any sort of detriment at all. That's not telling or anything...