Remove The Dark Sectors Armistice

[(PSN)my_soldier]

@ my_soldier - It's like real conflicts right? We can all say this doesn't work or this works or this isn't fair and this is, but just like in real life it's an on-going process that will probably never end. So it's also true for virtual warfare because afterall it's still operated by real people. The guy behind the Tenno is a real person. So essentially you have real people dealing with real people in a conflict environment. How do you propose we solve the question then? There probably isn't any 100% satisifying solution. Does that mean we should all just stop everything and not have these Rails? Maybe...and I would argue maybe not.

The problem is that the conflicts don't affect just clans and alliances, but the entire community. Taxes put on the dark sectors and everything is something the general community not involved in these (which I imagine is a big portion of the overall community) is affected by, but it's only determined what they are by a small community of people. 

 

Better to let capitalism do its work here, and if the players decide they've had enough of an Alliance controlling a Rail then they'll stop defending it when it gets attacked.

But the players don't have a say in it and that's the main problem. Alliances can get so big and have a tight grip on the dark sectors that the community can't do anything against it. What you are proposing is basically ungoing revolutions of community might work in theory, but in practice it seems that a lot of community doesn't know what's up with the dark sectors

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ my-soldier...but you do have a say in it. If you don't like a certain alliances taxation you and everyone in the community are able to fight on the opposing rails. The ACTUAL fight is not ONLY between the involved alliances. You literally can turn the tide of the fight by fighting on the other side.

And if the community is so big as you imply it should be very easy to defeat the alliance you feel is unfairly taxing on these nodes

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[Morec0]

But the players don't have a say in it and that's the main problem. Alliances can get so big and have a tight grip on the dark sectors that the community can't do anything against it. What you are proposing is basically ungoing revolutions of community might work in theory, but in practice it seems that a lot of community doesn't know what's up with the dark sectors

 

Even Alliances have a limit, right? Well then no one Alliance can ever get big enough to dominate everything. Other Alliances will oppose it, and if you have a big enough problem with it you can organize your Clan/Alliance against it. That's what Dark Sector's do: it's about organizing and working together against the other people.

 

This game is a Co-Op game, the FOCUS is teams and Clans and Alliances. If you have a problem with a certain group of players doing a certain thing, get your own group of players together and work against it.

 

I will say that the Honor Armistice system itself should be removed, if a Clan comes under attack they SHOULDN'T get the time to rebuild before another attack, they should be able to hold and maintain it through hard gameplay and having a model that other people are supportive of enough to run their nodes.

[(PSN)my_soldier]

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What you two are saying works in theory, but as we've seen in the PC dark sectors doesn't hold up in practice. High taxations and friendly politics to make sure attacking clans lost were present and the community did nothing to fix it. 

[(PSN)SeekerLoki]

What you two are saying works in theory, but as we've seen in the PC dark sectors doesn't hold up in practice. High taxations and friendly politics to make sure attacking clans lost were present and the community did nothing to fix it. 

While not a great solution, I would increase the armistice time and put a cap on the tax rate.

[Morec0]

What you two are saying works in theory, but as we've seen in the PC dark sectors doesn't hold up in practice. High taxations and friendly politics to make sure attacking clans lost were present and the community did nothing to fix it. 

 

I only noticed a problem after two things happened:

 

1) The Honor Armistice was implemented, allowing clans to completely repair damages done against their rail after a fight.

 

2) the focus on the DS's turned from the old PvE style to that STUPID unbalanced PvP scenario.

 

Both of these problems I've already noted should be addressed and offered solutions - the first through removal, the second through a tweaking of the system to bring back the PvE and update the PvP to the new, more refined state.

 

 

While not a great solution, I would increase the armistice time and put a cap on the tax rate.

 

I see the Armistice as the whole REASON we have that problem. If the rail changes hands frequently players will see which clans have the best intentions and bank on them.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Actually what I say works in practice. The issue is DE hasn't made it worth while for the remaining population to participate in these wars. Maybe that is something DE can work on. But trust me if the player base and community fought on a rail against an alliance they have the numbers as you suggested.
 

But the point isn't even that the point is you SAID the rest of the community DOESN'T HAVE A SAY. That is a FALSE statement, they absolutely have a say. The issue is they don't exercise it. And that's something DE will need to figure out. How to get them interested in it. But to say that they don't have a say is incorrect.

It's like I have a vote, but if I choose not to vote, that's on me, not because I don't have a say.

[(PSN)SeekerLoki]

I see the Armistice as the whole REASON we have that problem. If the rail changes hands frequently players will see which clans have the best intentions and bank on them.

You are right about the armistice being part of the problem, but I think removing it would cause burnout among players.

 

 

 

But the point isn't even that the point is you SAID the rest of the community DOESN'T HAVE A SAY. That is a FALSE statement, they absolutely have a say. The issue is they don't exercise it. And that's something DE will need to figure out. How to get them interested in it. But to say that they don't have a say is incorrect.

It's like I have a vote, but if I choose not to vote, that's on me, not because I don't have a say.

Making rail fights PVP only makes this problem worse.  There are plenty of players who avoid PVP like the plague.  For dark sector conflicts to be more fair, they must include a non-PVP option.  As somebody suggested several posts back.

.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@Loki1211 - you're PVP concerns was addressed earlier through a conversation between myself, Morec0, and Noamuth. I only brought it up to address my_soldier's statement that the rest of the player base did not have a say. Which isn't true because you are allowed to fight on those rails even if you aren't one of the two parties directly involved. So that last comment was simply to address his previous statement.

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[Morec0]

You are right about the armistice being part of the problem, but I think removing it would cause burnout among players.

 

 

I see the static nature it causes as being the reason for the burnout, it's far too easy for the situation my_soldier was talking about to occur and so people just stop taking part in them. It's like a quick-paced baseball game compared to slow one: the quick-paced one keeps you interest and attention with how fast things are going by while the slow one just causes you to change the channel and walk away.

[(PSN)my_soldier]

I liked Morec0's ideas btw with the PvP PvE thing, but as I said earlier I don't see exactly how it's going to raise interested from the community and ultimate change the monopolies. I was never around before this

 

1) The Honor Armistice was implemented, allowing clans to completely repair damages done against their rail after a fight.

 

so how exactly did it work before the honor armistice? 

[(XBOX)MrGorealler]

I think that's the problem most of all in the game they keep destroying the things that silent gamers like myself and several people I have met in this game not just my clan or alliance. People that like to get on here in the forums and fan-sites and everywhere else to complain about parts of the game they can't handle or don't like and kill it for everyone who does The solar rails was the only reason even started this game I know you can't please everyone but there are some things that can be made to fit all Speaking for all of my friends I have met in the warframe community we would like the rails back while they doing their homework also we liked mesa the way she was we like saryn the way she is now don't change her Mag is always great the way she was but you gave us greedy pull and we loved it then some players got mad because we had fun with her even more and you killed it what about us who enjoy what's there but don't have a voice and you complainers kill it for us the thing that kills most games is just that developers try to change what they built a great base on for a small majority who spend time on everything but actually playing the game I have loved all aspects of warframe and it has been some great steps in the game made but the things I pointed out is some of the things I get in game while playing this is what people say while we are in game chat and parties not on forums or the web in game....

[Morec0]

I liked Morec0's ideas btw with the PvP PvE thing, but as I said earlier I don't see exactly how it's going to raise interested from the community and ultimate change the monopolies. I was never around before this

 

 

so how exactly did it work before the honor armistice? 

 

It was just from one fight right to the other. A superior system, imo, for keeping those in power the greater playerbase WANTS to keep in power, while keeping those who could simply dominate through sheer numbers if they had the footing from being unstoppable.

 

And I'll even admit that fully removing it might be a bad idea, but giving a clan the opportunity to FULLY heal up for the next attack leads to static ownership, and that causes problems.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Morec0

[(PSN)my_soldier]

It was just from one fight right to the other. A superior system, imo, for keeping those in power the greater playerbase WANTS to keep in power, while keeping those who could simply dominate through sheer numbers if they had the footing from being unstoppable.

 

And I'll even admit that fully removing it might be a bad idea, but giving a clan the opportunity to FULLY heal up for the next attack leads to static ownership, and that causes problems.

So there just weren't any dark sectors really, just tenno conflicts?

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@MrGorealler - Same. Solar rails was like the main reason I was attracted to this game.

[(XBOX)Bubba5234]

Yes! Please bring them back soon! That was my favourite aspect of the game!

[(XBOX)IHasHairyNipzz]

I would love to have rails back. I wouldn't mind if they imposed a tax ceiling, maybe somewhere around 20%. Just unlock the rails DE so we can keep battling, then impose the new system whenever it's ready. If you want to be able to participate, do the work of building your forces and farming for credits, otherwise wait for the new system. It's even completely possible to build a war vault solely from the battlepay that some of these large alliances pay out.

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)HasHairyNipzzz

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

What you two are saying works in theory, but as we've seen in the PC dark sectors doesn't hold up in practice. High taxations and friendly politics to make sure attacking clans lost were present and the community did nothing to fix it. 

 

In January of this year on Xbox one, a group named "The Order" owned the majority of the total Solar Rails (16 total I believe)  and was considered an invincible monopoly (even though no one has ever truely monopolized), cheaters, tyrants, and every other negative tittle you could think of. By the beginning of March, they had 2 rails left... and we hold 9 of them.

 

 People always wanted to complain that it was somehow impossible to beat a well established and funded community, but it wasn't true. I know the nitty and grittiest details of what being on both sides of these wars means because I was both a leader in "The Order" that helped them secure their wealth of Solar Rails, and the Founder of "Art of War", the Alliance who managed to take them down. I won't go into the details and write a novel here, but I will say that what wins these wars isn't any single factor (like taxation or Alliance between Alliances), but the culmination of strategy and long term planning, tied together purely and most importantly by HARD WORK. People like to eventually think that they "did enough"... and if you ever have that mentality, then you are already on a downwards decline. If you want to win, and stay on top, then you have never done enough... and you can never stop working. I promise you that leading a Solar Rail community isn't for everyone, and even many others who I have successfully worked with have come to admit that they don't enjoy the responsibilities of that side of the game, but they step up for their clan and do what they have to do. I have something around 2000 hours on Warframe, and that is without majorly playing much since the Armistice has taken place(almost 1 year)... and I would say I could easily dedicate 1200 hours or so purely to keyboard work. If you play the game more than you "work" while on the game, don't expect to win... and don't complain that it is impossible to do so either. Just accept that someone else worked harder at recruitment, planning and preparation and either fix yourself or move on... after all, it is only a game and meant to be played one way or another... not to sit there stagnant because of complaints from those who didn't win when they gave it their shot.  

 

 The only real problems that ever needed fixing with Solar Rails was defensive connection issues and some Warframe power balancing. Period. 

 

P.S. - I have been advocating/arguing for the betterment of Solar Rails for a LONG time... there are many other topic headers (such as the Solar Rail PSA for Xbox as well as other threads regarding Solar Rails) that you can view from the "Reputation" feed in my profile if you are interested in seeing some of the real problems and efforts to constructively fix the rails that have been going on for around a year themselves also.

 

Profile Feed here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/user/906390-xb1xodus03/?tab=reputation&app_tab=forums&type=received&st=15

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)Xodus03

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

As a member who also fought in the Order and now the AOW, I can second everything commented on above.

 

The Order at one point had 16 rails and now they have just a couple btw if I'm not mistaken. So for everyone who says it's not possible please find another argument.

 

Cheers

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

I just want to say that I've read this whole thread and I want to plus one everything that Lorewalker has said in this entire thread. Everything he has said makes complete sense. Especially when he talks about how the community DOES have say in who owns the solar rails. On Xbox One when the Order was imposing ridiculous taxes on the rails Art of War was there to take away nearly every rail the Order owned in order to give the community better taxes. If one day we at AoW become corrupt I fully expect that the community would band against us and make sure we could never hold a rail again. The community has so much power, there are thousands of Tenno in the community and I believe the alliance cap is at 1000 Tenno. Even if there is say, only 5000 Xbox One Tenno, which I highly doubt is the case, the community outnumbers any alliance FIVE to ONE. And that is assuming the alliance is at max capacity with all of their members fighting on the rail. If you don't like the taxes, do something about it. The community has all of the real power.

Edited November 20, 2015 by (XB1)RequiemOfReason

[Morec0]

So there just weren't any dark sectors really, just tenno conflicts?

 

There was a deploying period, but nothing as major as what the Armistice does.

[(XBOX)Xodus03]

@Requiem - Alliance cap is at 4000 bro... even still your point stands cuz the Community is well into the 10's of thousands, and let alone the number of Alliances opposing us usually outnumbers us atleast 2:1 lol.

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

@Requiem - Alliance cap is at 4000 bro... even still your point stands cuz the Community is well into the 10's of thousands, and let alone the number of Alliances opposing us usually outnumbers us atleast 2:1 lol.

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

Dark sectors + rails = half of warframe

Where is my other half.

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

I wasn't sure the exact numbers Xodus, thank you for giving me the right ones and agreeing with my point.

 

I have seen many people say that rail conflicts were an American style capitalistic deal. But if that's the case, be an American and overthrow that which you do not like people! It is possible, if things are really as bad as people say on PS4 or PC then its not those alliances faults that they still stand. Its the community's. Even if one no name alliance places a rail, if the whole community fought for them the tyrants would be toppled.