So... Burston... Ever Getting A Buff?

[Vaskadar]

Burston is not a sidegrade to Braton or an intermediate between Braton and Latron as it is supposed to be... it is a downgrade from the starter rifles.

Still probably one of the worst weapons in the game, bar current DERA stats due to being far weaker per-shot. The weapon has remained relatively unchanged since early closed beta, since I first came into the game. The LATRON, BRATON, MK-1 BRATON, have all received direct damage buffs, whereas this weapon has remained weak in terms of both DPS and accuracy. I have thrown maximum AP, and 50% Fire Rate, with 120% damage on this thing and it's still incapable of dropping targets of the same level at the same rate a BRATON with the same exact mods does. The accuracy does increase with fire rate, but it shouldn't have such a pitiful fire rate/damage rate and base damage. Factoring the delay between bursts and the base damage, what should be its strong points turn out to be its greatest flaws, while it is ammo efficient, it is painfully slow at killing.

21 damage is only a 5% damage difference between it and Braton, whereas it has a fire rate that is only 33% of the BRATON itself. I want to like the weapon, I really do, but it's truly a sub-par tool usable only for leveling. I have used every other primary weapon in the game (bar the R&D weapons and the Latron Prime), and this is by far the least enjoyable, and probably the worst I've ever played with in this game. Here's how I would fix it.

Bring the damage up to 30, drop the magazine size from 45 to 30-24, reduce the delay between bursts greatly, and reduce the overall spread by about 30%.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[scope007]

I agree the burston needs to be changed, a simple damage increase would make a big difference.

[Xoxile]

Try timing your mouse clicks differently. There's a sweet spot on how regularly you can fire to get the optimum fire speed out of the burston. It's not very effective if you just keep spam clicking. Like I tell every one who asks about the burst weapons "Anyone who says the burst weapons sucks, suck at burst weapons." They are a skill weapon.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Xoxile

[Vaskadar]

I like the Sicarus, I even used forma on it. I actually hate the Burston, though, not because of the fact that it is burst fire, but the fact that it is worse than a sidearm and just about every other primary in terms of damage per second (and per burst), overall accuracy, and what it is advertised to do, as opposed to what it actually does.

It doesn't provide any serious bonus to getting a critical shot, and it is entirely reliant on headshots, but its damage doesn't cut it. Using it skillfully just isn't rewarding.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Xoxile]

It doesn't provide any serious bonus to getting a critical shot, and it is entirely reliant on headshots, but its damage doesn't cut it. Using it skillfully just isn't rewarding.

Then the burston isn't the gun for you. I see the burston as rewarding people who want to be skilled at a gun. If that's not your play style then leave it be.

[Vaskadar]

There's absolutely no reason it should still have the same damage it has had for this long (while other weapons received major buffs).

Progression here.

Around January (yes, I've been playing since then)

BRATON has 16 base damage,

BURSTON has... I dunno, 21 base damage

LATRON has... 30 base damage,

All justifiable in terms of their differences, since the Burston truly was the intermediate.

Present Day

BRATON has 20 base damage, (Was buffed because of people complaining about Braton Vandal exclusivity, now superior to Vandal in DPS)

BURSTON has 21 base damage (still same fire rate, lacking in punch by comparison to BRATON and LATRON, grossly inferior in DPS compared to LATRON and BURSTON)

LATRON has 40 base damage

I want there to be a good reason to use it. Don't tell me that it's a skill weapon when it's just in serious need of some loving. Don't try to justify its usage over other weapons, because I can burst with them too, far more accurately. LATRON is a skill weapon, too. Shot placement does matter, but the BURSTON has unnecessary recoil for what it is. Per-shot recoil is higher than BRATON and LATRON for no damn good reason.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Xoxile]

I want there to be a good reason to use it. Don't tell me that it's a skill weapon when it's just in serious need of some loving. Don't try to justify its usage over other weapons, because I can burst with them too, far more accurately. LATRON is a skill weapon, too. Shot placement does matter, but the BURSTON has unnecessary recoil for what it is. Per-shot recoil is higher than BRATON and LATRON for no damn good reason.

It's a skill weapon. Not the same kind as the Latron. Really if you want to love the burston so much take my advise and try to time your bursts better. I hear these people complaining they have to wait 3 seconds between each shot. They are firing it wrong. I can fire it every half second. Time your clicks.

[Vaskadar]

It's not about that. You're making assumptions. It's about the per-shot damage. I don't mind the delay that much, since it's pretty much mitigated/removed with a 60% fire rate mod, but it shouldn't need that in the first place. That's not what the main point here is.

The main point I'm arguing is that its damage per second and per-shot damage are SUB-PAR.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Xoxile]

You're complaining that it does 63 base damage per click?

[Vaskadar]

Per-click. BRATON can do that same level of damage in a very short squeeze, in a smaller time period. I'm certain that someone at DE can provide statistical information as to what rifles are used the most. BURSTON is most assuredly VERY low on that list and with good reason. It's not rocket-science that the weapon just doesn't compete with a LATRON or BRATON, let alone a GORGON, but the GORGON isn't even in the same category.

The SICARUS is superior in numerous ways to the BURSTON, even if magazine size is a fraction of it. The BURSTON has an unnecessarily large magazine, too.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Xoxile]

You're right. I bet it is the least weapon used in the entire game as well. Yes with good reason too. People follow the path of least resistance. If it takes skill to do top DPS most likely than not people will avoid it. I think this is a good thing. For the people who love the burston as is now they get to be those good player that aren't using guns like Hek, or Latron. Like I said; if the play style of the burston is not for you then it's not for you.

[CheeseThief]

Someone at DE really hates the Burston.

 

Way back when the Braton did 16 damage the Buston had accuracy so bad it was worse at range than a shotgun, while doing less damage and firing slower than the Sicarus. For some reason it also had a following back then saying that if you modded it right, aka 300%+ multishot, it was a good gun.

 

Some of us made a 3 page feedback thread about the accuracy and DE buffed it... in an odd way.

 

The Burstons accuracy kept it's shotgun like spread when not pointed at anything, but as soon as you put the reticule over something you could bean a Grineer in the head with 2/3 shots from the other side of one of those super sized 3 walkway hanger rooms. Still put out less damage than the Sicarus but a win is still a win.

 

Then they overhauled the weapon, lowered it's time between bursts, removed it's cone of fire, but apparently having the gun be remotely functional in comparison to the then new Braton Vandal was too much so they added that horrible, horrible kick to it. Rate of fire mods only effected the speed of the burst so a fully decked out Burston would cause your screen to jump an inch every time it fired and I had to ditch it for eye strain related reasons.

 

Then we come to the current version.

 

The shotgun levels of hip fire accuracy is finally gone which in turn alleviates the eye strain of the kick because you don't have to aim down sights with the weapon any more. Rate of fire mods effect the time between bursts so overall DPS was increased and aside from the kick still existing, the weapon was in a good place.

 

Then they gave the Braton 4 extra damage and made the Burston near useless in comparison since it now fired slower, had less accuracy and in return only did 5% more damage per bullet.

 

 

Without succumbing to power-creep by giving it a 25% raw damage buff like the Braton, I'd be happy if they just changed the recoil so it happens AFTER the burst instead of during and reduced the time between bursts a bit so the recoil actually meant something to proper handling of the gun.

Edited May 31, 2013 by CheeseThief

[Xoxile]

Without succumbing to power-creep by giving it a 25% raw damage buff like the Braton, I'd be happy if they just changed the recoil so it happens AFTER the burst instead of during and reduced the time between bursts a bit so the recoil actually meant something to proper handling of the gun.

Try pulling the mouse down as you fire to counteract the recoil.

[CheeseThief]

And what other guns do you need to do that for?

 

Sicarus and Grakata, and look how popular those are.

 

 

An obnoxious mechanic is still obnoxious, no matter how much you dress it up or defend it.

[Xoxile]

And what other guns do you need to do that for?

 

Sicarus and Grakata, and look how popular those are.

 

 

An obnoxious mechanic is still obnoxious, no matter how much you dress it up or defend it.

Then it's obvious you are not willing to do what is necessary to be good at those weapons. If you do not find a weapon that requires some getting used to fun, and you find enjoyment if doing high damage by simply holding down the left mouse button then these weapons are not for you.

I personally had fun trying to figure out the burston. At first it was slow. I too was getting frustrated not killing things as fast as I had wished. But once the flow of the gun came to me it was really good feeling finding out that this gun isn't as crappy as people say it is.

[Tulzscha]

Sicarus and Grakata, and look how popular those are.

 

According to my stat profile, the Sicarus is my most-used weapon. Granted, I haven't been playing as long as the other old school closed beta people in here (started around end of March). But what I'm saying is certain players like myself like the burst-fire weapons, I also have tons of kills with my Burston and Kraken.

 

Different weapons for different tastes. :)

 

Then it's obvious you are not willing to do what is necessary to be good at those weapons. If you do not find a weapon that requires some getting used to fun, and you find enjoyment if doing high damage by simply holding down the left mouse button then these weapons are not for you.

I personally had fun trying to figure out the burston. At first it was slow. I too was getting frustrated not killing things as fast as I had wished. But once the flow of the gun came to me it was really good feeling finding out that this gun isn't as crappy as people say it is.

 

Once I got the hang of it, the burst fire weapons became my favorite. I too enjoy the skill it takes to master them.

[Aggh]

Try timing your mouse clicks differently. There's a sweet spot on how regularly you can fire to get the optimum fire speed out of the burston. It's not very effective if you just keep spam clicking. Like I tell every one who asks about the burst weapons "Anyone who says the burst weapons sucks, suck at burst weapons." They are a skill weapon.

A,) You're bad if you need to pause between bursts to control it, it's an incredibly easy gun.

B.) It's not bad because it's hard to control (it's quite easy).  It's bad because it has worse dps and isn't any more accurate.

[Xoxile]

A,) You're bad if you need to pause between bursts to control it, it's an incredibly easy gun.

B.) It's not bad because it's hard to control (it's quite easy).  It's bad because it has worse dps and isn't any more accurate.

A) Not talking about timing the bursts to realign your sights after the recoil. I'm talking about timing your clicks to shoot of bursts faster than just clicking as fast as you can.

B) The DPS isn't bad. It does 20 more damage than the latron each pull of the trigger. As for accuracy it's far more accurate than the braton.

[elindred]

I feel like Burston would be just fine with 2 or 3 extra damage, plain and simple.

 

I agree Latron needs a buff as well.

Edited May 31, 2013 by elindred

[Amistyrja]

Burston is still my only rifle and probably will ever be(I'm a shotgun fan).

Give the Burston a higher damage per shot to compensate for its inferior damage per second.

[thefnordest]

So... Burston... Ever Getting A Buff?

No.

All burst weapons will keep their atrocious burstfire ROF and ROF forever, so that they can more closely imitate shotguns that fire only 3 pellets.

[Argoms]

The burston does one more point of damage than the braton, but shoots in bursts at a much lower sustained rate. Now that we have forma, it has no advantages over the braton. The braton does more dps unless you're killing in exactly one burst. It's more ammo efficient unless the number of shots to kill your enemy is a multiple of three. It has a lower skill floor because its recoil is lower. It's easier to obtain (25k credits vs crafting).

[MoonicusMaximus]

I have experience with both weapons, spud'd and maxed, and I prefer my Burston over my Braton; although I will admit, the Burston is one of those weapons that increases in performance exponentially as you come closer to a full 60 mod power, rather than steadily which is the case of the Braton. It feels like a much more precise weapon in which I only need to click once and land vital shots in order to kill enemies, rather than holding the mouse for a short time. The TTK for single enemies is lower that that of the Braton as well, as the shots come out faster in shorter succession, despite being limited in burst.

 

Basically, if it takes more than those 3 shots of a Burston, a Braton will eke out the advantage over a Burston that expands over time. But in most cases this only applies to heavy enemies, which are infrequent; a Burston, when used correctly, is excellent for dealing with the stock units, which comprise an overwhelming majority of your opponents.

 

I would not mind a buff, as the Burston is my most used weapon, but I am wary of making it too powerful. The gun performs well as it is.

[Argoms]

I have experience with both weapons, spud'd and maxed, and I prefer my Burston over my Braton; although I will admit, the Burston is one of those weapons that increases in performance exponentially as you come closer to a full 60 mod power, rather than steadily which is the case of the Braton. It feels like a much more precise weapon in which I only need to click once and land vital shots in order to kill enemies, rather than holding the mouse for a short time. The TTK for single enemies is lower that that of the Braton as well, as the shots come out faster in shorter succession, despite being limited in burst.

 

Basically, if it takes more than those 3 shots of a Burston, a Braton will eke out the advantage over a Burston that expands over time. But in most cases this only applies to heavy enemies, which are infrequent; a Burston, when used correctly, is excellent for dealing with the stock units, which comprise an overwhelming majority of your opponents.

 

I would not mind a buff, as the Burston is my most used weapon, but I am wary of making it too powerful. The gun performs well as it is.

Every weapon gains power exponentially as it gains mod points. Because we have forma now, the fact that a weapon has a polarity is no longer a balancing factor. It used to be the case that the burston was effectively balanced because of its v polarity.

 

It's not a more precise weapon because you had to click vs hold down mouse. That's purely preference (and yes, I know you said "feels like", and not "is", but still) and has no real effect on gameplay.

 

Every gun performs "well" as is because tenno are overpowered. Even a lato can kill a platoon of grineer. On top of that, a potato effectively makes your weapon's level 60, and the highest level enemies (non defense) are level 55. 

 

The burston is only more effective against enemies when they take exactly three shots to kill. Any less and it becomes extremely ammo inefficient, any more and the braton outdoes it.

 

TL;DR: Your argument for burston being fine is biased

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Welcome to Volt's generic Don't Buff the Burston post!  You have been selected to receive this message probably for one of two reasons: 1) you have suggested that the Burston is insufficiently powered and should be buffed; 2) you have suggested that the Burston is a terrible weapon.  In this post, you will find a full explanation as to why the Burston does not actually need a buff, contrary to popular belief.  This post has been compiled over many forum debates on balance and I have yet to see any sufficient argument against it.

 

First off, read https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/58427-fire-rate-on-semi-autos-is-meaningless/'>this which combined with improper use are the primary reasons the Burston seems so weak.  From hence forth, we shall ignore the issue with semi-automatics as that is not a fault of the Burston, but rather the weapon type in general and hopefully DE will resolve the issue as soon as possible as currently, no semi-automatic is actually viable.

 

Part I - Intro and Common Arguments

 

Why does the Burston not need a buff?  As I've explained exhaustively in several threads prior, specifically, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52437-use-of-the-burston/'>here and https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52449-burst-fire-weapons-rework/'>here  (among others I don't care to hunt for) the Burston has a stupid-low TTK and doesn't need a buff.  Properly modded, it can drop any non-heavy in the game in one click if you're accurate.  Also, because the kick is now vertical, you can control it, meaning that by sliding your mouse down, you can increase your accuracy with time, making the gun eventually able to drop high-level enemies from across the map which I routinely do (Burston is my most-used weapon, accounting for something like 80 hours of in-game time over several updates, so I'm fairly familiar with its mechanics).

 

Oh, and in regards to DPS, the Burston only lacks in immediate DPS.  The moment you account for reload, it BEATS the Braton.

 

If you try to buff the damage, you do zilch to help the weapon.  Why?  Because it can already instagib!  It doesn't need extra damage and by implementing the suggestion of buffing damage and reducing clip size, you'll actually make it weaker for those who know how to use it.

 

If you try to shove the recoil till the end, you'll throw everyone up to the peak of the skill of the most skill-based gun in the game, meaning it will swing wildly from arguably UP to stupidly OP.

 

The gun is fine.  Look, you don't have to like the weapon if you don't want to due to its mechanics, but the fact is, that calling for buffs to it is the wrong way to go about it.  If you say, "Burston isn't fun, let's reduce damage to 18 and shove recoil to the end," while I'd very much dislike that thread as well (I love the current mechanics and you have no idea how happy I was when I read the change to the current system in the patch notes), the weapon very likely would be balanced for average users.  You'd have a point though: most users don't like the skill-based nature of the Burston and most people have to get used to it.  There's not a whole lot of difficulty in this game and the other weapons aren't skill-based, so why should the Burston be?  Why should it be something that you have to adjust to or as someone once said, "I shouldn't have to adapt to the weapon."  The simple answer to this is don't.  There's nothing forcing you to.  I for instance hate spray-and-pray heavies like the Gorgon, so why should I have to adapt to that playstyle to use it?  I won't.  I won't adapt because I just won't use the weapon for anything other than mastery and then chuck it (which I did).  Nothing is forcing you to become a sniper in this game.  You can if you elect to.  It's up to your preference what you do.  There is no shortage of weapons.

 

What the Burston is though is a skill-based weapon that can instagib any normal mob and puts out better DPS against bosses than the Braton.  When used properly, it is good at distant targets.  It isn't for everyone, I'll admit that, and I'm not even remotely the best person with it but I can see how much better it could be for someone who mastered it.  In previous patches, I've argued for and against buffs to it and honestly, I don't believe it needs one now.  Look, I hope I don't come across as angry or something, it's just that I feel like a broken record in these threads.

 

Regarding ammo efficiency, I only ever run out of ammo on the thing if I'm in a defense mission and get lazy about picking up ammo.  It's really not an issue for normal circumstances.

 

The Burston is a great all-around weapon, capable of many of the key features of other weapon classes, making it very powerful when used properly.  It isn't for everyone (burst weapons never are), but many do like it.  It starts off weak and really needs a potato to start doing real damage (everything comes down to TTK for this gun in the end) but maxed out is a monster and lives up to its title as a balance between semis and autos.

 

 

Part II - Summary of Problems

 

Fundamentally, there are three things that make it seem underpowered.

 

1. People intrinsically hate burst weapons.  Some people just suck with burst weapons or just hate the mechanics of them.  If you are one of these people please be hesitant to give feedback on the performance of such a weapon and at minimum add disclaimers.

 

2. It snowballs much later, requiring a potato far more than other guns to shine.  This has to do with what is required for it to instagib enemies.  For much of its life, it requires two bursts which makes it vastly inferior to everything else out there so players that don't love the mechanics immediately aren't going to put in a potato and/or the time to rank it up.

 

3. Players don't seem to realize how to control the spread when in fact it can be controlled quite well.

 

Likewise, there are fundamental issues with buffing the weapon.  As it stands, it becomes ultra-powerful later but has a much slower start than other weapons and also has a higher skill ceiling than other weapons.  The problem becomes how do we get it to late-game power sooner without buffing lategame all that much.  The following are issues with this.

 

1. If you push recoil to the end: the gun becomes a significantly better version of the Latron

 

2. If you buff the damage: players that are already good with it will do even more stupid damage and you still won't alleviate the problems related to how an entire extra burst is required which eats up a bunch of time.

 

3. If you buff the RoF: it can already instagib, so this will just make it better and punish lack of skill less at higher power levels.

 

The only three options I can think of then are...

 

1. Leave it as-is; minor adjustments to stats won't really help because it has to kill you with the first burst or it becomes horribly inefficient.  RoF doesn't help much either and reload is already low enough that it puts the Burston on par with the Braton against bosses.  This leaves the Burston a good but niche weapon loved by some but discarded by most.  This is my preference.

 

2. Rework it: I don't know what you could do though because the same principles would apply, instagib it or suffer.

 

3. Adjust crit values as per Part III.

 

 

Part III - A Proposed Change

 

Honestly at this point, the only thing I can think of is perhaps buffing the skill floor of the weapon, making it more accessible.  You absolutely do NOT want to buff the high end which is already incredibly powerful when used with skill.  The only thing I can think of would be something along the lines of increase its crit chance to 7.5% and it's crit damage to 200%.  When firing out 3 shots, that'll give you 1-(1-.075)^3 = 20% chance to get a shot that does double damage so instead of a 63 damage burst, you'd get an 84 damage burst.  This shouldn't affect the high end too much (I'll get to numbers in a bit), but perhaps this extra touch of damage would make ranking it up and pre-potato more worth it.

 

Regarding DPS, let's compare with crits the Burston and the Braton with these proposed changes.

 

-Before Crits-

Burston: 3*3.3*21 = 207.9

Braton: 11.3*20 = 226

 

-After Crits-

Burston: 207.9+207.9*.075*2 = 239.085

Braton: 226+226*.05*1.5 = 242.95

 

Idk..  Maybe it would help by making an extra bullet more likely and thus net the player more kills early on while still not impacting later on too much.  Crits are mainly used for increasing likelihood of instagibbing, so hopefully, this could be used to give players a taste of the power to come without boosting that final strength too much.

 

 

Part IV - Valid Uses

 

Why Burston vs X

 

- Vs Braton: Burston can instagib, Braton can't, making its TTK lower.  Also DPS is only 8.7% different and once accounting for reload, the Burston actually comes out on top

 

- Vs Gorgon: much more accurate at range when used properly

 

- Vs Hek: obviously much more powerful at range due to lack of falloff.

 

- Vs Latron: for non-stealth missions (the Latron appears to have dampened sound, not alerting enemies, but only making them more wary), the difference is preferential.  The Burston will punish missed shots more due to lower RoF but will reward hits more.  Risk vs Reward and I'd call it a fair trade.

 

- Vs Paris: once again, for non-stealth missions, the decision is preferential.  The Paris will deal more damage against single targets, so ranking it up will be easier, but its RoF is much lower, being a bow so misses are punished even more heavily than on the Burston.  Once again, Risk vs Reward.  Largely preferential, but I find that the Paris can't down enemies fast enough when in mobs, so I'd pick the Burston.

 

In short, the Burston really is a balance between styles and the reason you should play it is when you are looking for a good all-around weapon that isn't the Braton.  The Braton is a great gun and depending on playstyle may be better for you than the Burston.  It just depends on the person IMO.  Experiment and see which you prefer.  It is totally up to you.

 

 

Hopefully all that has cleared up why the Burston is fine as it stands or at most should only be buffed in regards to crits.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz