So... Burston... Ever Getting A Buff?

[MoonicusMaximus]

Every weapon gains power exponentially as it gains mod points. Because we have forma now, the fact that a weapon has a polarity is no longer a balancing factor. It used to be the case that the burston was effectively balanced because of its v polarity.

 

It's not a more precise weapon because you had to click vs hold down mouse. That's purely preference (and yes, I know you said "feels like", and not "is", but still) and has no real effect on gameplay.

 

Every gun performs "well" as is because tenno are overpowered. Even a lato can kill a platoon of grineer. On top of that, a potato effectively makes your weapon's level 60, and the highest level enemies (non defense) are level 55. 

 

The burston is only more effective against enemies when they take exactly three shots to kill. Any less and it becomes extremely ammo inefficient, any more and the braton outdoes it.

 

TL;DR: Your argument for burston being fine is biased

 

In other words, the entire choice between the Braton and the Burston is preferential. I see and feel no discernible difference between using either of them; A burston kills enemies in the same frequency as other weapons, just in a different manner. This from my experience using both weapons.

 

My argument isn't biased; I use both weapons and, after seeing they perform at nearly the exact same frequency, I personally prefer the Burston for its use and gameplay. If it was plain awful, I would instantly recognize its shortcomings, but I do not feel that it has any.

Edited May 31, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Argoms]

It's not an awful weapon, but it requires more skill to equal other weapons. Latron also instagibs enemies, but does so with three times the ammunition efficiency.  How are you calculating burston dps? Using the number given in the weapon description for firerate (3ish), the thing comes out way worse than the braton.

My argument isn't biased; I use both weapons and, after seeing the perform at nearly the exact same frequency, I personally prefer the Burston. If it was plain awful, I would instantly recognize its shortcomings, but I do not feel that it has any.

Part of it is.

Clicking to shoot is no more precise than holding down the mouse.

The braton also gains power exponentially.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Burston DPS (not accounting for reload) is actually quite close to Braton, only being IIRC 8.7% different.  

 

Braton: 11.3*20 = 226

Burston: 3*3.3*21 = 207.9

 

Ammo efficiency was addressed in my above post.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Argoms]

Hm.

 

Nevermind then. I've been calculating burst weapon dps wrong all this time ^^"

[MoonicusMaximus]

Clicking to shoot is no more precise than holding down the mouse.

The braton also gains power exponentially.

 

 

It isn't in a strictly number sense. But I prefer the click rather than the hold. The very fact that my personal preference is just as valid as another choice is a good thing.

Edited May 31, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Amistyrja]

The Burston doesn't exactly NEED a buff since Burston users are still able to defend themselves with it.

Did the Braton need a buff?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Honestly at this point, the only thing I can think of is perhaps buffing the skill floor of the weapon, making it more accessible.  You absolutely do NOT want to buff the high end which is already incredibly powerful when used with skill.  The only thing I can think of would be something along the lines of increase its crit chance to 7.5% and it's crit damage to 200%.  When firing out 3 shots, that'll give you 1-(1-.075)^3 = 20% chance to get a shot that does double damage so instead of a 63 damage burst, you'd get an 84 damage burst.  This shouldn't affect the high end too much (I'll get to numbers in a bit), but perhaps this extra touch of damage would make ranking it up and pre-potato more worth it.

 

Regarding DPS, let's compare with crits the Burston and the Braton with these proposed changes.

 

-Before Crits-

Burston: 3*3.3*21 = 207.9

Braton: 11.3*20 = 226

 

-After Crits-

Burston: 207.9+207.9*.075*2 = 239.085

Braton: 226+226*.05*1.5 = 242.95

 

Idk..  Maybe it would help...

Edited June 1, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[KF5AQX]

This topic rapidly went from a civil discussion, to saying everyone else didn't see your point, to saying you sucked if you couldn't use a weapon, and then back to a civil discussion. Ah, how I love these forums.

 

On topic, I used the Burstron as my primary for a limited amount of time (Got to rank fifteen, ditched it in favor if a Latron,) and it wasn't as good as I had hoped. This could be due to the fact that I had no damage mods for rifle at that time, (Rank eight frame means you're not able to farm mods very well,) but it fell short when I was using it. Personally, I prefer the Braton or the Paris over the rest. And trust me, Paris takes some skill to use.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

This is kinda what I was touching on above.  At the end, it snowballs into a rampaging death machine when used properly but getting there kinda sucks.  It's true that other weapons increase more towards the end, but the Burston is much moreso than other weapons.

[Vaskadar]

I honestly don't think the Braton ever needed a buff, but I also feel that the Burston has a much larger magazine than necessary. Am I wrong? I have been playing since January, and everything except the Burston has received a damage buff.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Vaskadar

[0shi]

Maybe I should try my Burston again, some people seem convinced it isn't as bad as I remember.

I bought it as my first item and stopped using it when it started to feel a little dated against 30+ enemies, replaced it with a Boltor. I recently bought a Braton and levelled that up, and while I find it to be an incredibly bland gun, it's undeniably effective. My takeaway from playing with the Brataon was that did everything I wanted from my Burston with better accuracy, and the added utility of being able to use very accurate single shots, full automatic spamming, variable burst sizes and the amazing fact that there was NO FORCED GAP BETWEEN BURSTS.

Edited May 31, 2013 by 0shi

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Something to unfortunately note is that I speak mostly about the upper end of its power. When I bought mine several months ago, I put in a potato with my starting platinum (back when they unlocked skill trees) around level 12 so it may not even be possible to instagib without a potato, even at max rank.

[Aggh]

I hate these threads. 

 

Why does the Burston not need a buff?  As I've explained exhaustively in several threads prior, specifically, here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52437-use-of-the-burston/ and here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52449-burst-fire-weapons-rework/ the Burston has a stupid-low TTK and doesn't need a buff.  Properly modded, it can drop any non-heavy in the game in one click if you're accurate.  Also, because the kick is now vertical, you can control it, meaning that by sliding your mouse down, you can increase your accuracy with time, making the gun eventually able to drop high-level enemies from across the map which I routinely do (Burston is my most-used weapon, accounting for something like 80 hours of in-game time over several updates, so I'm fairly familiar with its mechanics).

 

Oh, and in regards to DPS, the Burston only lacks in immediate DPS.  The moment you account for reload, it BEATS the Braton.

 

If you try to buff the damage, you do zilch to help the weapon.  Why?  Because it can already instagib!  It doesn't need extra damage and by the OP's suggestion of buffing damage and reducing clip size, you'll actually make it weaker for those who know how to use it.

 

If you try to shove the recoil till the end, you'll throw everyone up to the peak of the skill of the most skill-based gun in the game, meaning it will swing wildly from arguably UP to stupidly OP.

 

The gun is fine.  Look, you don't have to like the weapon if you don't want to due to its mechanics, but the fact is, that calling for buffs to it is the wrong way to go about it.  If you say, "Burston isn't fun, let's reduce damage to 18 and shove recoil to the end," while I'd very much dislike that thread as well (I love the current mechanics and you have no idea how happy I was when I read those things in the patch notes), the weapon very likely would be balanced for average users.  You'd have a point though: most users don't like the skill-based nature of the Burston and most people have to get used to it.  There's not a whole lot of difficulty in this game and the other weapons aren't skill-based, so why should the Burston be?  Why should it be something that you have to adjust to?  An argument made before was "I shouldn't have to adapt to the weapon."  And it was by a person who had honestly tried the Burston but just couldn't seem to like it.  Look, the gun isn't for everyone.  Not even close.

 

What the Burston is though is a skill-based weapon that can instagib any normal mob and puts out better DPS against bosses than the Braton.  When used properly, it is good at distant targets.  It isn't for everyone, I'll admit that, and I'm not even remotely the best person with it.  In previous patches, I've argued for and against buffs to it and honestly, I don't believe it needs one now.  Look, I hope I don't come across as angry or something, it's just that I feel like a broken record in these threads.

 

EDIT: Regarding ammo efficiency, I only ever run out of ammo on the thing if I'm in a defense mission and get lazy about picking up ammo.  It's really not an issue for normal circumstances.

 

Now tell me why I should use it over a hek, Gorgon, paris or any decent secondary.  Saying it's better than a braton doesn't mean much.

 

Stop trying to say it's a skill based weapon.  I'm going to hurt myself laughing.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Aggh

[LasersGoPewPew]

if anything the high recoil could be reduced to the levels of the bratons low recoil to make it usable while still having it retain its faster TTK with one click shooting 3 bullets. instead of one like the braton. they could also make the recoil come after you shoot the burst so it shoots the 3 bullets quick and then the gun kicks at you. that way more people can use it efficiently and it'll still have good TTK.

[Xoxile]

Now tell me why I should use it over a hek, Gorgon, paris or any decent secondary.  Saying it's better than a braton doesn't mean much.

 

Stop trying to say it's a skill based weapon.  I'm going to hurt myself laughing.

 

To have fun with a gun that people say sucks. Because..... It is.... a skill weapon.

 

if anything the high recoil could be reduced to the levels of the bratons low recoil to make it usable while still having it retain its faster TTK with one click shooting 3 bullets. instead of one like the braton. they could also make the recoil come after you shoot the burst so it shoots the 3 bullets quick and then the gun kicks at you. that way more people can use it efficiently and it'll still have good TTK.

The recoil is fine. It's controllable. That's one of the things that makes this gun fun to use.

[Aggh]

 

To have fun with a gun that people say sucks. Because..... It is.... a skill weapon.

 

The recoil is fine. It's controllable. That's one of the things that makes this gun fun to use.

Ah, so it's not because it's anyway better or as good as those weapons, the only reason to use it is because people say it sucks.  Ie it's bad.

[Xoxile]

Ah, so it's not because it's anyway better or as good as those weapons, the only reason to use it is because people say it sucks.  Ie it's bad.

No I'd say it's on par with those weapons.

[Aggh]

No I'd say it's on par with those weapons.

Then this discussion isn't worth having since you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about :|

 

Just by virtue of the fact that it uses rifle mods it's already at a disadvantage to the hek or any good secondary.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Aggh

[Xoxile]

Then this discussion isn't worth having since you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about :|

 

Just by virtue of the fact that it uses rifle mods it's already at a disadvantage to the hek or any good secondary.

With that logic shotguns are at a disadvantage to pistols as most pistol mods have higher numbers than shotgun mods.

[Aggh]

With that logic shotguns are at a disadvantage to pistols as most pistol mods have higher numbers than shotgun mods.

Shotguns have higher total base damage that makes up for that.  Rifles do not.

[Xoxile]

Shotguns have higher total base damage that makes up for that.  Rifles do not.

And most rifles have higher fire rate, or higher accuracy. See what I did to what you did there?

We are straying from the topic. Does the Burston need a buff. I say no because I have leveled a Burston, and I say it's a damn fine weapon.

Buff it's base damage, and then you have the people who are already good at it now doing too much damage, and the people who can't get the hang of it will say it's OP and want it nerfed.

Put all it's recoil after it's three round burst, and then you have something that acts similar to the Latron but does more damage.

Keep it the way it is, and the people who love it now continue to love it and the people who don't like it now will find a gun they much prefer using. This is the way it should be.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Xoxile

[Aggh]

And most rifles have higher fire rate, or higher accuracy. See what I did to what you did there?

We are straying from the topic. Does the Burston need a buff. I say no because I have leveled a Burston, and I say it's a damn fine weapon.

Buff it's base damage, and then you have the people who are already good at it now doing too much damage, and the people who can't get the hang of it will say it's OP and want it nerfed.

Put all it's recoil after it's three round burst, and then you have something that acts similar to the Latron but does more damage.

Keep it the way it is, and the people who love it now continue to love it and the people who don't like it now will find a gun they much prefer using. This is the way it should be.

Damage is always better than dps because of the ammo system this game has.  Boar outclasses it hard in the dps category too btw.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Aggh

[Xoxile]

Damage is always better than dps because of the ammo system this game has. And if you're going to argue that point, all I have to say is boar.

I will not argue that.

[Tyre]

Burst rifles always need more damage per bullet to balance out the lack of fire rate

[MoonicusMaximus]

Now tell me why I should use it over a hek, Gorgon, paris or any decent secondary.  Saying it's better than a braton doesn't mean much.

 

Over a Hek? Range and precision at range. The Hek does more burst damage than the Burston will, but it's a shotgun, and at its optimal range it should deal more damage. If I want precision kills at short, medium and moderately long ranges, I'll bring my Burston, but if I want things dead fast with little aim required at short to medium-short range, I'll use my Hek (or rather my Strun; I dislike the Hek).

 

Over a Gorgon? The Burston has much more upfront DPS, and will kill things much fast in the span of time it takes a Gorgon to spin up. Beyond that point, however, a Gorgon will outDPS a Burston, as it should, as you've at that point overcome the Gorgon's shortcoming and are now directly using its greatest advantage; high sustained DPS.

 

Over a Paris? A matter of preference, personally. The Burston is more forgiving of missing shots than a Paris will be, but a Paris arguably has more short-term burst per shot.

 

Any decent secondary? Why should I have to choose, considering I can have both and use both at my leisure? I prefer carrying my dual Bronco's when I use my Burston, to have a terrific close-range burst option to balance my long range precision.

 

Stop trying to say it's a skill based weapon.  I'm going to hurt myself laughing.

The very nature of the burst weapons in Warframe, specifically the recoil draw upwards and the necessity to compensate for that recoil draw to land all shots consecutively, make the weapon require more skill to use. Moreso than a Hek.

Edited May 31, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus