So... Burston... Ever Getting A Buff?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Now tell me why I should use it over a hek, Gorgon, paris or any decent secondary.  Saying it's better than a braton doesn't mean much.

 

Stop trying to say it's a skill based weapon.  I'm going to hurt myself laughing.

 

 

Vs Hek: much longer range.

Vs Gorgon: can kill individual enemies faster and at greater distances

Vs Paris: the Paris is more of a sniper than a general engagement weapon from what I've gleaned from using mine thus far, though I haven't leveled it too much yet.  I'll be leveling Ember soon, so I'll probably finish it then.

Vs Sidearms: non-issue since I can just carry one of my choice along with the Burston.

 

Regarding skill, obviously it's not like trying to MA someone in Tribes/Legions/any other FPS+Z, but it's more than anything else in this game.

 

 

I prefer carrying my dual Bronco's when I use my Burston, to have a terrific close-range burst option to balance my long range precision.

 

Lol, same here.  Do you by chance main Volt (I assume yes by the avatar).  If so, I may have found someone with the same playstyle, or at least loadout.

[Amistyrja]

Lower Burston's mag capacity to 33 rounds(base 10 bursts)

Decrease Burston's reload time to 1.5secs

Increase Burston's base damage to 25

PROFIT.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Lower Burston's mag capacity to 33 rounds(base 10 bursts)

Decrease Burston's reload time to 1.5secs

Increase Burston's base damage to 25

PROFIT.

Reasoning?

[Amistyrja]

Reasoning?

Burston will become from "cool" to "awesome"

And it'll still have low dps with its recoil and fire rate anyway

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Since you're not explaining it yourself, I guess I'll go through it myself.

 

You're buffing damage by 19% and making it go into reload every 11 bursts, giving a magazine a lifetime of 3.33 seconds during which it would deal 247.5 DPS, making it very powerful indeed.  More importantly than DPS, you're increasing the damage of a burst from 63 to 75.  Then, accounting for reload, you make it 247.5*3.33/(3.33+1.5) = 170.79 DPS.

 

I assume what you mean then is that the gun ought to dominate against everything except bosses?  Because that's exactly what it'll do.  Its higher DPS would shred even heavies.  I'm not sure how this makes the gun cool or awesome.

[Amistyrja]

Since you're not explaining it yourself, I guess I'll go through it myself.

 

You're buffing damage by 19% and making it go into reload every 11 bursts, giving a magazine a lifetime of 3.33 seconds during which it would deal 247.5 DPS, making it very powerful indeed.  More importantly than DPS, you're increasing the damage of a burst from 63 to 75.  Then, accounting for reload, you make it 247.5*3.33/(3.33+1.5) = 170.79 DPS.

 

I assume what you mean then is that the gun ought to dominate against everything except bosses?  Because that's exactly what it'll do.  Its higher DPS would shred even heavies.  I'm not sure how this makes the gun cool or awesome.

OK OK fine I just wanted a Halo battle rifle

[oKibbles]

How do you compete for long-long ranged combat? I find that even with controlled aiming with the burston, it takes more bullets to kill grineer as opposed to a braton. People say to aim at the body/neck depending on your rate of fire. However, I find that the braton can kill grineer at far range in much less bullets making it more efficient. That's the only reason why I think the braton is better than the burston.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

How do you compete for long-long ranged combat? I find that even with controlled aiming with the burston, it takes more bullets to kill grineer as opposed to a braton. People say to aim at the body/neck depending on your rate of fire. However, I find that the braton can kill grineer at far range in much less bullets making it more efficient. That's the only reason why I think the braton is better than the burston.

I assume then that you do try to slide the mouse down while firing and have it maxed?  It's just a practice thing then.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[oKibbles]

 

 

I assume then that you do try to slide the mouse down while firing and have it maxed?  It's just a practice thing then.

Yes I drag my mouse down when I shoot and I think I had speed trigger at 50% when I had it. Does that extra 10% really cluster it up enough to get 3 head shots in one burst?

[Xoxile]

Yes I drag my mouse down when I shoot and I think I had speed trigger at 50% when I had it. Does that extra 10% really cluster it up enough to get 3 head shots in one burst?

Depends on the range at which you are shooting from, but yes.

[0shi]

I just don't understand people talking about how amazing the Burston is for bursting.

The triple tap doesn't go off that fast, a Braton fires pretty close to that rate, and accomplishes the same thing with less effort, better accuracy and more options for other situations.

[Xoxile]

I just don't understand people talking about how amazing the Burston is for bursting.

The triple tap doesn't go off that fast, a Braton fires pretty close to that rate, and accomplishes the same thing with less effort, better accuracy and more options for other situations.

No. Burston is more accurate.

[Inofor]

I enjoy using the Burston. Controlling the recoil manually is fun and has a nice skill ceiling when used at long range. Burston is a very accurate gun.

 

Burston DPS (not accounting for reload) is actually quite close to Braton, only being IIRC 8.7% different.  

 

Braton: 11.3*20 = 226

Burston: 3*3.3*21 = 207.9

 

Ammo efficiency was addressed in my above post.

Are you taking the delay between bursts and duration of the burst of shots into account in these calculations? Does 3.3 fire rate mean that it should be possible to complete three bursts in under 1 second? I just tested the fire rate for the unmodded Burston and couldn't fire even three bursts in a second even if I hit the sweetspot for the burst delay. I decided to measure it.

 

I frapsed a video of me shooting and measured the time used for three well timed bursts with goldwave after warming up my timing a bit. I had 120 fps, so the fps did not affect my rate of fire. The video was recorded with stable 60 fps. The sound continues for some time after the last shot of the last burst, which introduces some error into my measurement. I tried to compensate for this. Also, the human component introduces some error. Ideally, this testing should be done with a macro but I don't have one. Goldwave is capable of more accurate measurements, but I could not separate the beginning of the sound for the last shot meaningfully with sufficient accuracy to use three decimals. To partly compensate for the human error, I decided to err on the side of lower time in goldwave.

 

The time I took to fire three bursts was 1.15 seconds. This measurement had a sample size of two complete sets of three bursts I chose from the video. Feel free to provide me with a video if you have a better burst timing.

 

Three bursts hold a total of 9 bullets. This would mean that the rate of fire for the Burston is 1/(1.15/9)=7,826 bullets per second.

This result is wrong, error caused by inaccuracy in timing bursts. Accurate macro'd results below this post.

 

The burst dps for the burston would be 21/(1.15/9)=164,35 dps. For the burst dps to be 207,9, there should be a total error of at least 207,9/164,35=26,5% in my measurements. I confirmed that in goldwave, the maximum possible error for the measurement is less than 0,05 seconds, or less than 4,4%. I did this by checking that I only heard two shots of the last burst if the duration chosen was 1,100 seconds. The start measurement was accurate because the ambient noise was very stable and I used the shape of the graph to determine the start point.

 

I conclude that the in-game rate of fire stat for the Burston does not contain enough information or is mistaken. Some perfectly timed burst videos would be useful, this needs more measurements.

 

Please tell me if you notice that there is a source for error that I failed to mention, or if there is an error in the measurement methods I used.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Inofor

[FullSupport]

Burston's displayed fire rate is indeed mistaken.

I have taken data of my own and found out the following:

 

Recording with fraps at 60 fps, emptying the clip with perfect timing (macro assisted):

 

It takes ~6.8 seconds to completely empty the burston. That's 45 shots / 6.8 seconds = actual fire rate ~6.6

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~5.3 seconds to to completely empty the burston. That's 45 shots / 5.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.5

this isn't even a 60% fire rate increase like the mod claims to be, likely because of burst firing.

 

Out of curiosity, the braton is indeed roughly 11.3 shots per second, meaning burston falls extremely short in damage.

20*11.3 = 226 compared to 21*6.6 = 138.6

This means that burston would need to do about 34 damage per shot to be close to the braton. (62% damage increase or a 72% increase in fire rate.)

 

Additional data:

Burst delay is about 0.35 seconds, 0.25 seconds with max fire rate mod.

A burst takes 0.1 seconds to fire with and without max fire rate mod.

 

All these values were taken using sony vegas.

Edited June 1, 2013 by FullSupport

[0shi]

No. Burston is more accurate.

It catergorically isn't unless you control the burst recoil (i.e. throwing yourself off and putting more effort into the game), in which case it is a little more accurate.

Given that the Braton's variance when fired on bursts isn't wide enough to leave weak spots at virtually any range, I can't really see that being relevant, and a weapon performing equally while taking more effort is a pretty good indication of it being weak... And the Braton still has the option of single shot and full auto in it's favour.

Edited June 1, 2013 by 0shi

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I enjoy using the Burston. Controlling the recoil manually is fun and has a nice skill ceiling when used at long range. Burston is a very accurate gun.

 

Are you taking the delay between bursts and duration of the burst of shots into account in these calculations? Does 3.3 fire rate mean that it should be possible to complete three bursts in under 1 second? I just tested the fire rate for the unmodded Burston and couldn't fire even three bursts in a second even if I hit the sweetspot for the burst delay. I decided to measure it.

 

I frapsed a video of me shooting and measured the time used for three well timed bursts with goldwave after warming up my timing a bit. I had 120 fps, so the fps did not affect my rate of fire. The video was recorded with stable 60 fps. The sound continues for some time after the last shot of the last burst, which introduces some error into my measurement. I tried to compensate for this. Also, the human component introduces some error. Ideally, this testing should be done with a macro but I don't have one. Goldwave is capable of more accurate measurements, but I could not separate the beginning of the sound for the last shot meaningfully with sufficient accuracy to use three decimals. To partly compensate for the human error, I decided to err on the side of lower time in goldwave.

 

The time I took to fire three bursts was 1.15 seconds. This measurement had a sample size of two complete sets of three bursts I chose from the video. Feel free to provide me with a video if you have a better burst timing.

 

Three bursts hold a total of 9 bullets. This would mean that the rate of fire for the Burston is 1/(1.15/9)=7,826 bullets per second.

 

The burst dps for the burston would be 21/(1.15/9)=164,35 dps. For the burst dps to be 207,9, there should be a total error of at least 207,9/164,35=26,5% in my measurements. I confirmed that in goldwave, the maximum possible error for the measurement is less than 0,05 seconds, or less than 4,4%. I did this by checking that I only heard two shots of the last burst if the duration chosen was 1,100 seconds. The start measurement was accurate because the ambient noise was very stable and I used the shape of the graph to determine the start point.

 

I conclude that the in-game rate of fire stat for the Burston does not contain enough information or is mistaken. Some perfectly timed burst videos would be useful, this needs more measurements.

 

Please tell me if you notice that there is a source for error that I failed to mention, or if there is an error in the measurement methods I used.

Wow, thank you.  I was merely assuming that the fire rate of the weapon was as advertised.  They indicated when they changed it that it should now display the rate of bursts themselves, whereas it used to display the RoF between the bullets in the burst.  I've never done formal testing and my own experience didn't seem that far off the mark, so I assumed that it would be correct.  By your math then, since you can fire 3 bursts in 1.15 seconds, 3/1.15 = 2.60896 fire rate or 2.6*3 = 7.826 bullets/second.  Thank you very much for pointing this out.  I wish I had a program to independently verify this, but regardless, good work.

 

Honestly, I think this deserves its own thread, perhaps alongside other weapons which do not fire at the advertised rate.  I think I'll look up how to write autohotkey macros again and try to hand you one when possible for testing.  Regardless, thank you very much for this find.

 

EDIT: just finished the macro, so I'll PM it to people now.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Inofor]

I measured the time spent emptying the Burston clip with GoldWave again, but this time using your macro. No human error in shooting. The total time spent shooting was 6,9 seconds. I wouldn't mind considering the margin of error 0,1 seconds since my GoldWave testing was done by ear and it's close enough. Total amount of shots is 45.

 

Here is the video in case anyone wants to confirm my results using some other method, such as counting frames.

 

1/(6,9/45)=6,52±0,10 bullets per second

 

My results line up with:

 

It takes ~6.8 seconds to completely empty the burston. That's 45 shots / 6.8 seconds = actual fire rate ~6.6

 

Ouch. Got to practice a bit more until I can shoot like a script. Good macro Volt!

Edited June 1, 2013 by Inofor

[Eldorian]

I really like Burst weapons, but I find Kraken to be superior to Burston in most ways.  Sicarus, tho, I didn't prefer to Burston.

[MoonicusMaximus]

But what does this lapse of time between bursts translate to in-game? I see plenty of hard number data being thrown around the forum daily; the Grakata is supposedly one of the highest DPS weapons by a wide margin, according to some of the number charts floating around, but in practice, the numbers don't mean diddly. I often find that the time it takes to acquire a new target after killing my previous one takes longer than the breadth of time between Burston bursts. Only the heaviest of targets will see the difference between Burston and Braton firing rates, and despite the numbers, my experience with both weapons places them at about the same.

 

Is the time between rounds fired actually an issue, and does it actually constitute buffing the rifle to make the rounds more powerful to compensate for a problem that I don't believe is present in the first place?

Edited June 1, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Amistyrja]

But what does this lapse of time between bursts translate to in-game? I see plenty of hard number data being thrown around the forum daily; the Grakata is supposedly one of the highest DPS weapons by a wide margin, according to some of the number charts floating around, but in practice, the numbers don't mean diddly. I often find that the time it takes to acquire a new target after killing my previous one takes longer than the breadth of time between Burston bursts. Only the heaviest of targets will see the difference between Burston and Braton firing rates, and despite the numbers, my experience with both weapons places them at about the same.

 

Is the time between rounds fired actually an issue, and does it actually constitute buffing the rifle to make the rounds more powerful to compensate for a problem that I don't believe is present in the first place?

What I feel

Because it has lower dps(which should be the case), buff its damage per burst to compensate. Right now it feels really neglected.

[Vaskadar]

^ Especially with the Braton buff.

I feel like it needs 3-4 more damage to really make it the 'intermediate' rifle between the Latron and Braton.

[Bubsters]

So the general opinions is buff damage. 

 

DE pls.