Void Drop Rates + Void Keys Drop Rates + Void Key Pack Drop Rates+ Defense Reward Estimation

[Excitonex]

To those of you who are saying you won't spend money on this game because of the droprates, I shake my head at you. Rare drops have been a thing in RPG's for a long time. A 0.67% chance to drop is 67x higher than drops that are considered rare in most RPGs. Look how many people got the legendary weapons from Molten Core in WoW if you want to see what a real rare drop is like to farm.

[IspanoLFW1]

To those of you who are saying you won't spend money on this game because of the droprates, I shake my head at you. Rare drops have been a thing in RPG's for a long time. A 0.67% chance to drop is 67x higher than drops that are considered rare in most RPGs. Look how many people got the legendary weapons from Molten Core in WoW if you want to see what a real rare drop is like to farm.

 

Yeah, a legendary weapon, not access to new "content". What would the outrage be if only people with Thunderfury could access certain content, unless you paid for it?

[Excitonex]

Yeah, a legendary weapon, not access to new "content". What would the outrage be if only people with Thunderfury could access certain content, unless you paid for it?

How is a weapon not new content? And void keys drop just fine from missions. You only have to pay if you are impatient. Also, in crafting the thunderfury you fought a specific boss that you could only unlock during the quest to complete it so many people who did not get thunderfury never saw this content.

[Notso]

Yeah, a legendary weapon, not access to new "content". What would the outrage be if only people with Thunderfury could access certain content, unless you paid for it?

 

He's talking about the drop rate for a new weapon. You don't have to pay to access new content. Between you and a few friends you'll easily have enough keys to access the Void.

[IspanoLFW1]

How is a weapon not new content? And void keys drop just fine from missions. You only have to pay if you are impatient. Also, in crafting the thunderfury you fought a specific boss that you could only unlock during the quest to complete it so many people who did not get thunderfury never saw this content.

 

Yes, you fought a specific boss, Prince Thunderaan, which anyone could come join in to help with, in raid or not. Similar, but not nearly the same extent with Void Keys (can only take 3 others)

 

Also, you may not agree with people who take issue with the drop rates, as evident by your post. And that's fine. However your comment that the keys "drop just fine" is more than not agreeing, it's more pushing your view and/or opinion as the right one.

 

He's talking about the drop rate for a new weapon. You don't have to pay to access new content. Between you and a few friends you'll easily have enough keys to access the Void.

 

As I said above, opinions. Also speculation. Easily having enough keys, when I've seen many people not get a single key since the update. As for the drop rate on the more rare weapon parts, assuming you likely never see a T3 key due to the low chances, you have to run T1/T2. And depending on how often, or not, that you get them, that's a second RNG roll.

 

Asking people to have patience is fine. Telling people who have different views that it's fine, that they are impatient or want everything RIGHT NOW, is just you pushing your view on others.

[CH4RL35t0n_Ch3W]

I feel like reading this thread has lowered my IQ. Wtf you can't all have your cake and eat it too. The void is all about being rare and expensive from what i take and so what? If everyone has prime equipment its not really prime anymore is it? Duh

[Asla]

@Excitonex

If you  could stop saying bullS#&$, it would be great.

 

You are comparing two totally different things.

[ducronaldy]

I feel like reading this thread has lowered my IQ. Wtf you can't all have your cake and eat it too. The void is all about being rare and expensive from what i take and so what? If everyone has prime equipment its not really prime anymore is it? Duh

 

Prime weapons and warframes can be, well, to use your own word - "prime". The void towers on the other hand are content to be experienced, not gated behind a platinum barrier. But of course, doing one thousand defense missions for (statistically) 1.5 T3 void key in order to have a 12.65% chance to acquire a reaper prime blade or latron prime receive is perfectly reasonable for you, right? If that is the case, I have good news: reading this thread did not lower your IQ - they don't have negative IQ yet, yours always remains the same.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

[Excitonex]

Yes, you fought a specific boss, Prince Thunderaan, which anyone could come join in to help with, in raid or not. Similar, but not nearly the same extent with Void Keys (can only take 3 others)

 

Also, you may not agree with people who take issue with the drop rates, as evident by your post. And that's fine. However your comment that the keys "drop just fine" is more than not agreeing, it's more pushing your view and/or opinion as the right one.

 

 

As I said above, opinions. Also speculation. Easily having enough keys, when I've seen many people not get a single key since the update. As for the drop rate on the more rare weapon parts, assuming you likely never see a T3 key due to the low chances, you have to run T1/T2. And depending on how often, or not, that you get them, that's a second RNG roll.

 

Asking people to have patience is fine. Telling people who have different views that it's fine, that they are impatient or want everything RIGHT NOW, is just you pushing your view on others.

We're all here to discuss our opinions, that's what forums are for. I won't try to convince you of my opinion but I would like it known why I believe it and why you believe in yours.

 

If you only play a couple hours a week, don't expect to be running void's every day. If you're not farming in places that have good drop rates, don't expect to be running void's every day. You should be able to get a key roughly 1 in every 15-20 runs. This isn't bad when you consider each key serves up to 4 people. If you have a group you play with you will get an average of 1 key for every 5 runs or so.

 

 

Edit: I accidentally a word.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Excitonex

[Kyrkitao]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

T3 keys need to be obtainable by a F2P player (1.5 in 1000 is not). Common mods should not be uncommon or rare rewards for defense missions (edit: they're tolerable in raid/etc., but they don't make me happy). Forma should be at least uncommon in T1. The 76/22/2 formula you follow needs to be adjusted (something more like 70/27/3 seems better, or 66/30/4 seems much better).

Edit: Also, thanks for pronouncing my name correctly last live stream.

Edit2: A clear delineation of what is in the pools would also be appreciated, but I doubt we'll get it. The void key packs are laughable (both overpriced and too little value; though DE Steve refused to acknowledge that platinum prices were ridiculous so the best I can hope for are changes to the contents.) Why not make each pack contain one of each of the 5 keys?

Edited June 2, 2013 by Kyrkitao

[IspanoLFW1]

We're all here to discuss our opinions, that's what forums are for. I won't try to convince you of my opinion but I would like it known why I believe it and why you believe in yours.

 

If you only play a couple hours a week, don't expect to be running void's every day. If you're not farming in places that have good drop rates, don't expect to be running void's every day. You should be able to get a key roughly 1 in every 15-20 runs. This isn't bad when you consider each key serves up to 4 people. If you have a group you play with you will get an average of 1 key for every 5 runs or so.

 

 

Edit: I accidentally a word.

 

 

I have no issue with people discussing their opinions. The issue is when they state them in a way that "pushes" them on others.

 

I've done runs with a group, 40+ runs with no keys. Others have experienced it too. It's not a weighted system (As in the more you do, the higher your chances). Some people will get them at the rate you described, some will not. Some will even get them faster. And even then, assuming the information gained is somewhat correct, the chance for a T3 key, to have a decent chance at the Blade/Receiver, is much much lower. Again, I have no issue with waiting at all, in fact my personal slow rate of void runs is self inflicted. I won't leech or play void runs with randoms, and my keys are reserved for the clan. Except i'm a terrible host, and dislike not being able to return the favor to a clanmate. This is how I do things, my opinion, and I have no issue with that. But i'm not talking about myself when I make these posts.

[IspanoLFW1]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

 

My personal opinion formed from experience is that most people can see or point out a flaw in something, but not all of them are good at coming up with solutions that are good for the whole. Me for example, if companies took my ideas and ran with it, they'd go bankrupt. Partly because I disagree with money in our society to begin with.

[Excitonex]

I have no issue with people discussing their opinions. The issue is when they state them in a way that "pushes" them on others.

 

I've done runs with a group, 40+ runs with no keys. Others have experienced it too. It's not a weighted system (As in the more you do, the higher your chances). Some people will get them at the rate you described, some will not. Some will even get them faster. And even then, assuming the information gained is somewhat correct, the chance for a T3 key, to have a decent chance at the Blade/Receiver, is much much lower. Again, I have no issue with waiting at all, in fact my personal slow rate of void runs is self inflicted. I won't leech or play void runs with randoms, and my keys are reserved for the clan. Except i'm a terrible host, and dislike not being able to return the favor to a clanmate. This is how I do things, my opinion, and I have no issue with that. But i'm not talking about myself when I make these posts.

I feel much the same way with key expenditure. All my keys are saved for clan members so I end up sitting on a lot as I'm a terri-bad host. We use my keys as punishment for dying during void runs. You die, you have to go on one of my key runs.

[Asla]

 

 

If you only play a couple hours a week, don't expect to be running void's every day. If you're not farming in places that have good drop rates, don't expect to be running void's every day. You should be able to get a key roughly 1 in every 15-20 runs. This isn't bad when you consider each key serves up to 4 people. If you have a group you play with you will get an average of 1 key for every 5 runs or so.

 

 

Summary

 

If you read all the posts, we are not discussing about t1 keys. 

Their droprate is acceptable (8% per 5 wave according to the data)

The issue is that t1 :

-don't allow you do get frost part

-don't allow you to get forma

-don't allow you to get receiver and blade so you can't finish related weapons (aka repaer prime/latron prime)

 

T3 key is nearly undroppable without an incredible amount of luck (hardcore player here, i have farmed 10 hours every day since u8 and didn't see a single one).

 

Keys are overpriced

 

Keys pack don't allow you to get more than 1 t3 if you have not an incredible amount of luck again

 

You have no reason to spend five bucks for a t3 key when you are done with all t1 rewards

 

Conclusion :

An area and some items parts seem to be exclusive to harcore platinum buyers or key leechers. Not hardcore freeplayers.

 

@DeRebecca,

 

You system is totally different from Diablo. Don't refer to that game please.

Diablo is based on Rng items but there are some areas with higher drop rates that improve your chance. There is a system to improve your chance to get "rare"  thing.

There is a trade system.

There is an AH system (D3).

You can trade something you don't want or you don't need for an other item with the community. (a feature that should appear  soon in Warframe if you are working on it).

 

If I am farming 3 hours a high level area in D3 (inferno mode), i am pretty sure i'll get something valuable, and ll make money even if i don't need it.

If i am farming 5 hours per day xini as i am doing, i am just getting complete pages of warframe common mods again and again (still looking for my thunderbolt).

Edited June 2, 2013 by Asla

[NetDefault]

Partly because I disagree with money in our society to begin with.

Well at least you're honest enough to admit you have no idea about how to tackle this situation.

[IspanoLFW1]

Well at least you're honest enough to admit you have no idea about how to tackle this situation.

 

I wouldn't say no idea, I just prefer not to since my views vary so much, and have a tendency to incite "You're Wrong!" types of people to post.

 

I disagree with the desire many people have to amass wealth and power and the like, instead of the desire to better humanity as a whole.

[Webly]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

 

Basically everyone wants the timesink to be more fair.

Just look over the rates on everything and see what is just absurd, receivers and blades being effectively rarer in T2 keys than T1 is a good example.

 

 

Kyrkitao said in another thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/57570-datamined-drop-rates-are-bad-if-true-please-change-them/

 

"Change your system from a pool system to a flat independent chance system. This allows you to directly control rates so that you can achieve a better balance. If you're unwilling to do that, you MUST reduce some of the pool bloat in some of the pools. A particularly offensive instance is Tier 3 void keys; they are rare in tier 3 defense missions. A 0.15% chance to drop means there are 1.5 void keys in 1000 rewards. I also suggest putting T2 keys in the uncommon pool for the T3 defense rewards (and moving some of the uncommon pool to the common pool so as to dilute the 4 items currently in it). Alternatively, you can create different T3 defense pools for different planets so that you can eliminate some of these items from some of the pools.

 

Additionally, T3 keys are more common in your key packs than uncommon keys. This seems... wrong.

 

Failure to rectify the 1.5 in 1000 chance of getting a T3 key will make U8 look like a naked cash grab; Buy keys or spend hundreds/thousands of hours farming for those two weapons (and maybe a frame).

 

Edit: Also, is it too much to ask that we be given these values? If they're going to be datamined, is there a point to hiding them?"

 

 

It wouldn't hurt to look at the drop rates on resources from bosses now too, S#&$'s gotten ridiculous since the update.

 

 

 

[Nicocat]

re: T3 keys:

[Excitonex]

Summary

 

If you read all the posts, we are not discussing about t1 keys. 

Their droprate is acceptable (8% per 5 wave according to the data)

The issue is that t1 :

-don't allow you do get frost part

-don't allow you to get forma

-don't allow you to get receiver and blade so you can't finish related weapons (aka repaer prime/latron prime)

 

T3 key is nearly undroppable without an incredible amount of luck (hardcore player here, i have farmed 10 hours every day since u8 and didn't see a single one).

 

Keys are overpriced

 

Keys pack don't allow you to get more than 1 t3 if you have not an incredible amount of luck again

 

You have no reason to spend five bucks for a t3 key when you are done with all t1 rewards

 

Conclusion :

An area and some items parts seem to be exclusive to harcore platinum buyers or key leechers. Not hardcore freeplayers.

While I do wish the T3 keys had a better drop rate I'm not sold on the fact that they should. I've only found a single T3 key since U8 (From M Prime if you can believe it) and I was really excited. I don't feel like this would have been as great a feeling if they were more common. When you think that the void key packs are $3.75 and you get 5 keys they're not a bad deal compared to many other forms of gratification. You could buy a couple 2L's of pop or run a few void runs with your friends. Hell, I used to pay $3.75+tax for a single bottle of imported beer, which will last far less time than the 5 void keys.

[Notso]

You system is totally different from Diablo. Don't refer to that game please.

It's not

 

Diablo is based on Rng items but there are some areas with higher drop rates that improve your chance. There is a system to improve your chance to get "rare"  thing.

This exists in Warframe

 

There is a trade system

There is an AH system (D3).

You can trade something you don't want or you don't need for an other item with the community. (a feature that should appear  soon in Warframe if you are working on it).

This sentence invalidates the previous two

 

If I am farming 3 hours a high level area in D3 (inferno mode), i am pretty sure i'll get something valuable, and ll make money even if i don't need it.

If i am farming 5 hours per day xini as i am doing, i am just getting complete pages of warframe common mods again and again (still looking for my thunderbolt).

It would take you just as long to get the rare item that you want farming Diablo 3. If you're looking for a specific mod, item, or whatever, it will take you longer to get than simply getting a single rare item, whatever the game.

[IspanoLFW1]

This is in reply to Notso quoting Asla.

 

The system is different from Diablo, not completely, but it is.

 

Also, the system to improve chances does not actually exist in the same way for some things. ie for mods you can fight higher level mooks to an extent, but most other things, the chance is static and nothing changes that.

 

Also, iirc, the trade system will be severely limited, ie only materials between clans and mods between squadmates at the end of that mission. I understand why they don't want more as well.

[Asla]

While I do wish the T3 keys had a better drop rate I'm not sold on the fact that they should. I've only found a single T3 key since U8 (From M Prime if you can believe it) and I was really excited. I don't feel like this would have been as great a feeling if they were more common. When you think that the void key packs are $3.75 and you get 5 keys they're not a bad deal compared to many other forms of gratification. You could buy a couple 2L's of pop or run a few void runs with your friends. Hell, I used to pay $3.75+tax for a single bottle of imported beer, which will last far less time than the 5 void keys.

It's not really about the price. Even if in europe, 75 plat=4 euros, around 5$ a bit higher so.

It's about introducing more and more platinum dependant content.

 

It would take you just as long to get the rare item that you want farming Diablo 3. If you're looking for a specific mod, item, or whatever, it will take you longer to get than simply getting a single rare item, whatever the game.

I do agree with you. I have mentionned Thunderbolt because it's a mod i really want but i would be happy to get whatever rare mods (not only streamline and warframe elite skills). Farming the same amount of time in D3 ll allow you to get one or more rare items. Maybe be not the perfect item, maybe not the one you absolutely want but at least a valuable item.

Top of that, as someone said above, drop chance are static and doesn't scale on wave/missions/ennemies level or whatever in warframe.

Anyway it was just an answer to rebecca, we should't go in a debate like LoL vs Warframe economic, D3 vs Warframe Rng ect.. That's not the point of the thread.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Asla

[Excitonex]

Summary

 

If you read all the posts, we are not discussing about t1 keys. 

Their droprate is acceptable (8% per 5 wave according to the data)

The issue is that t1 :

-don't allow you do get frost part

-don't allow you to get forma

-don't allow you to get receiver and blade so you can't finish related weapons (aka repaer prime/latron prime)

 

T3 key is nearly undroppable without an incredible amount of luck (hardcore player here, i have farmed 10 hours every day since u8 and didn't see a single one).

 

Keys are overpriced

 

Keys pack don't allow you to get more than 1 t3 if you have not an incredible amount of luck again

 

You have no reason to spend five bucks for a t3 key when you are done with all t1 rewards

 

Conclusion :

An area and some items parts seem to be exclusive to harcore platinum buyers or key leechers. Not hardcore freeplayers.

 

@DeRebecca,

 

You system is totally different from Diablo. Don't refer to that game please.

Diablo is based on Rng items but there are some areas with higher drop rates that improve your chance. There is a system to improve your chance to get "rare"  thing.

There is a trade system.

There is an AH system (D3).

You can trade something you don't want or you don't need for an other item with the community. (a feature that should appear  soon in Warframe if you are working on it).

 

If I am farming 3 hours a high level area in D3 (inferno mode), i am pretty sure i'll get something valuable, and ll make money even if i don't need it.

If i am farming 5 hours per day xini as i am doing, i am just getting complete pages of warframe common mods again and again (still looking for my thunderbolt).

Diablo, Warframe, Elder Scrolls, they all use RNG systems that are very similar so it is useful to refer to them in a conversation about RNG. Also, your 5 hours farming in D3 will likely not get you an upgrade. It may get you something that you can use but so does Xini. On Xini you get your fusion trash, dojo mats, and keys. It seems to me that everything besides what your looking for is being considered useless and that is simply untrue, as you can see in D3.

[Vabla]

Arguing with each other over datamined content that has already had to be corrected seems troublesome. The issue here is two fold:

1) Reversed engineered data is not perfect.

2) The RNG system as a whole is actively being changed.

So, bearing in mind Steve has addressed the issue of RNG as a whole (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/), and that our current system is largely inspired from games like Diablo (and others), what changes are you looking for? What would you like to see?

Thanks to those who referred to the concept of "rare" items as a whole and how that plays into drop rate systems in other games. Definitegj brings up a good point on "use it an it's gone" in regards to keys and how that could affect arguments.

I don't mind "rare" items but those should be limited to status symbols (best choice would be alternate skins) rather than passed on as a brand new and massive content update.

 

The whole void issue could be (relatively) easily corrected by implementing a token system on top of the current RNG. Both for getting keys and void end mission rewards. Though you should get a similar amount of tokens for each tier (1/2/4 for example) or it'd turn into another "impossible to obtain unless it's T3" case.

 

P.S. I'd really prefer actual skins rather than reskinned weapons being offered as new ones. Still hoping on my nodachi gram skin...