Forma, Braton And Braton Vandal

[Namacyst]

A while ago the Braton was buffed to match the damage of the Braton Vandal because people who did not own the Braton Vandal wanted something as good as the Braton Vandal, regardless of of DE's intend to have the Braton Vandal in the game as the superior Braton of the series. Proof of that is in the Weapons description: "A special version of the standard BRATON rifle with a slower fire rate but offering higher accuracy and damage values. ...". And because continuous whining is the only solution when you can't get your hands on something exclusive anymore... DE granted their wishes to keep the forums from drowning.

 

For comparison.. these are the stats (from the Wiki) after the Buff:

 

Braton vs Braton Vandal

 

Base Damage 20.0 vs 20.0

Base Firing Rate 11.3 vs 9.4

Accuracy 28.6 vs 33.3

Base Clip Size 45 vs 45

Base Ammo Size 500 vs 500

Base Reload Speed 2.3s vs 2.3s

Base Critical Chance 5% vs 7.5%

Base Critical Damage 150% vs 150%

 

They are nearly identical but the biggest issue is the higher Fire rate of the Braton, boosting it's DPS more than 2.5% more crit chance or a higher accuracy. Again.. the Braton Vandal is "A special version of the standard BRATON rifle with a slower fire rate but offering higher accuracy and damage values. ..." meaning it does more damage than the Braton but that was taken away. Braton does the same now. What was left for the Vandal was a V polarity slot and one could argue if this was enough to make the Vandal still the better gun as it's supposed to be or not.

 

But then came the Forma.

 

Everyone can Format their Braton now, put polaritys on it and in the end make a better gun than the Vandal because higher fire rate is just better than an RNG increase of 2.5% or ~5 points more accuracy you won't feel anyways. The Braton Vandal lost the last edge it had to make it different from the Braton and basically it became a skin.

 

I think it's time now to give the Braton Vandal some love and make it again what it's supposed to be: The better Braton. It may be exclusive but it deserves it... because it's description and your intention, DE .. says so and because it's the right thing to do. I just have to pull out the Lato vs Lato Vandal here because those weapons are a good example for how it should be. Lato Vandal has 6 damage more than normal Lato, 5% more crit chance, higher accuracy and the obligatory V polarity. That's how it should be for a Vandal which, in my opinion, was designed to be a hard-hitter version of the normal gun. In exchange it suffers from lower fire rate. Here you can see the difference, feel it and you just know that the Vandal is an improvement over the normal gun.

 

So...

 

Give the Braton Vandal 2-5 more damage points, increase the accuracy to a point where you can see the difference compared to the normal Braton and maybe add another 2.5% crit chance to reach 10% to stay true to your description. "A special version of the standard BRATON rifle with a slower fire rate but offering higher accuracy and damage values. ...". Make it the hard-hitter of the Braton's... a Vandal again.

 

TL;DR: Buff the Braton Vandal because it lost the only difference to a normal Braton through the implementation of Forma and is even worse than the normal Braton now.

 

P.s.: Feel free to discuss here but keep in mind that you should own both, Braton and Braton Vandal and have tested them against each other to make valid statements. This thread i made because i did so and it reflects my personal feelings about that matter and of course because i am a fan of all the Braton guns out there.

 

Keep it civil!

Edited June 4, 2013 by Namacyst

[Un1ted]

Yep, it's only real advantage (the polarity slot) was erased with the introduction of forma polarization. Should be buffed up above the normal version like it was originally.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yep, it's only real advantage (the polarity slot) was erased with the introduction of forma polarization. Should be buffed up above the normal version like it was originally.

eh yes and no on the forma. The difference now is 1-2 forma (aka the difference between hours of farming/20-40 platinum)

[Tekkaman-Blade]

Wish downvote was still in the forums.

 

Braton Vandal is a vanity gun and is at least equal in power to the Braton, this is how it should be.

 

As the proud owner of one I am more than pleased with this. I don't want my Tenno brothers to feel emasculated by my more powerful assault rifle, but instead awe at my seniority and faith that I am a capable operative.

 

TL;DR Stop thinking of Vandal Weapons need to be superior, they're for vanity.

[Korevas]

So, what you're saying is the forum population is all stupid whiners and should deal with not ever having the best gun in the game just because they were just not there at a completely random time interval in the past? Yup, makes perfect sense.

 

Give the Braton Vandal 2-5 more damage points, increase the accuracy to a point where you can see the difference compared to the normal Braton and maybe add another 2.5% crit chance to reach 10% to stay true to your description. "A special version of the standard BRATON rifle with a slower fire rate but offering higher accuracy and damage values. ...". Make it the hard-hitter of the Braton's... a Vandal again.

 

So, the braton vandal, which is no longer attainable should be made better damage then the gorgon, be extremely accurate, have a free polarization slot and better crit profile, because of the *flavor text*? Yea right. Reading this really makes me happy that people like you don't get to feel better anymore.

 

I do have a excal prime and a skana prime which I paid for and will be unavailable at some point in the future, and you don't see me whining about that.

 

TL; DR: Yes, the flavor text and damage values don't match anymore, thanks for pointing this out. The flavor text should get changed.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

So, what you're saying is the forum population is all stupid whiners and should deal with not ever having the best gun in the game just because they were just not there at a completely random time interval in the past? Yup, makes perfect sense.

I wouldn't say it's the best. Good? Sure.

 

 

So, the braton vandal, which is no longer attainable should be made better damage then the gorgon, be extremely accurate, have a free polarization slot and better crit profile, because of the *flavor text*? Yea right. Reading this really makes me happy that people like you don't get to feel better anymore.

Gorgon has a better fire rate, and ammo clip.

 

I do have a excal prime and a skana prime which I paid for and will be unavailable at some point in the future, and you don't see me whining about that.

He's not whining about the fact you CAN'T get it but that it's not as good as the base braton.

 

TL; DR: Yes, the flavor text and damage values don't match anymore, thanks for pointing this out. The flavor text should get changed.

I disagree, 2-3 points more damage wouldn't be bad, to make up for the fact it has a slower fire rate.

[Venarge]

So, what you're saying is the forum population is all stupid whiners and should deal with not ever having the best gun in the game just because they were just not there at a completely random time interval in the past? Yup, makes perfect sense.

 

 

So, the braton vandal, which is no longer attainable should be made better damage then the gorgon, be extremely accurate, have a free polarization slot and better crit profile, because of the *flavor text*? Yea right. Reading this really makes me happy that people like you don't get to feel better anymore.

 

I do have a excal prime and a skana prime which I paid for and will be unavailable at some point in the future, and you don't see me whining about that.

 

TL; DR: Yes, the flavor text and damage values don't match anymore, thanks for pointing this out. The flavor text should get changed.

Sorry but I do understand him to some point. There was a huge amount of whining and because of that, BV was nerfed/Braton got buffed.

Now that everyone can make it better than the vandal, I dont see why they shouldnt buff it a little bit more.

[Korevas]

Sorry but I do understand him to some point. There was a huge amount of whining and because of that, BV was nerfed/Braton got buffed.

Now that everyone can make it better than the vandal, I dont see why they shouldnt buff it a little bit more.

 

The dev's intention obviously was to make vandal not be superior anymore. If they now changed it to be like this again we are back to square one.

 

To me it really seems most people arguing it should be superior just randomly stumbled about theirs and now want to have something special just because, and I don't think that is a good guideline for game balancing at all.

 

Personally, I think it should really have been a skin from the start.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Korevas

[Namacyst]

The reason why i quoted the flavor text that much was to show what DE had in mind back in the day when they released the Braton/Lato Vandal. "Vandal" is not just some vanity thing.. it is like a "model-type", affecting not only the looks but also the stats of the Vandal weapon, similar to MK-1 Braton vs. Braton.

 

It is the trait of Vandal weapons to have more damage/accuracy and less fire rate compared to normal weapons of the same type.

 

The Lato Vandal still fits compared to the normal Lato.. the Braton Vandal compared to the Braton does not.

[NekoFire]

Hey i paid 1 credit for it!!! I like my pretty colours and extra polarity slot. 

XD

 

The Lato Vandal is better than the lato so i dont see why the braton doesn't get a slight buff. Maybe a slightly higher fire rate??

Edited June 4, 2013 by NekoFire

[Namacyst]

Hey i paid 1 credit for it!!! I like my pretty colours and extra polarity slot. 

XD

 

The Lato Vandal is better than the lato so i dont see why the braton doesn't get a slight buff. Maybe a slightly higher fire rate??

 

Higher fire rate stands against the "Vandal" traits, as my posts.. if you read them, stated.

[Amistyrja]

I'll support this even though I don't have the Vandal. My Hek had its damage falloff fixed to fit its description as 'efficient at medium range'. The Braton Vandal should also be fixed to have its higher damage as well. Doesn't it have a lower fire rate than the normal Braton anyway?

Edited June 4, 2013 by Amistyrja

[Namacyst]

Doesn't it have a lower fire rate than the normal Braton anyway?

Yes.. as stated in the flavor text ;)

[NekoFire]

Okay, yeah i see what you mean. I guess a small buff in damage can't hurt too much. It is supposed to be a higher damage low rate of fire gun.  

[Korevas]

Okay, yeah i see what you mean. I guess a small buff in damage can't hurt too much. It is supposed to be a higher damage low rate of fire gun.  

 

Even 1 or 2 points could make it a straight upgrade again, I doubt this is what the devs had in mind when they changed it.

 

But hey, I have an idea: Let's ask them to make a gorgon with 5 points more damage, free polarity and better crits, hand it out for free for one weekend and then never make it available for anyone. That does sound like a very bright plan and surely isn't going to piss anyone off, right?

 

Actually, I would be curious if people who have one but not the other and would scream to nerf the one they don't have.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Even 1 or 2 points could make it a straight upgrade again, I doubt this is what the devs had in mind when they changed it.

 

Sure, but right now the braton is pretty much better than the vandal in terms of DPS, couldn't hurt to balance it out.

 

braton dps = 20 * 11.3 = 226

Vandal DPS = 20 * 9.3 = 186

this is ofc not counting crit chance, and even then the vandal is STILL weaker, so it could use a little buff.

 

 

But hey, I have an idea: Let's ask them to make a gorgon with 5 points more damage, free polarity and better crits, hand it out for free for one weekend and then never make it available for anyone. That does sound like a very bright plan and surely isn't going to &!$$ anyone off, right?

 

That's a bit extreme unlike say 2 points on the vandal (9.3 * 2 = 18.6, 18.6 + 186 = 204, which is STILL weaker, 3 points = 213.9, 4 points = 223.2 which is pretty dang close, and the polarity easily makes up for the rest of the damage, and a little bit imo.

 

Also, the gorgon would lose some fire rate too, so it wouldn't be a straight upgrade.

 

Actually, I would be curious if people who have one but not the other and would scream to nerf the one they don't have.

In conclusion, 4 points of damage wouldn't make it better than the braton, let alone the 1-2 you were talking about.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

Why do people use DPS as a measurement in this thread or any thread?

 

It assumes several things that are not safe assumptions

1. All shots hit

2. You're not doing burst fire

3. No head shots

4. No crits

 

Vandal has a higher accuracy and has a much easier time connecting every bullet to the target at any distance past 10 meters (most combats)

Higher accuracy means more head shots

More bullets hitting means more chances to crit

 

Vandal is still better against anything that isn't giant like Golem or Jackal.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Why do people use DPS as a measurement in this thread or any thread?

 

It assumes several things that are not safe assumptions

1. All shots hit

2. You're not doing burst fire

3. No head shots

4. No crits

 

Vandal has a higher accuracy and has a much easier time connecting every bullet to the target at any distance past 10 meters (most combats)

Higher accuracy means more head shots

More bullets hitting means more chances to crit

 

Vandal is still better against anything that isn't giant like Golem or Jackal.

We are using a machine gun, not a sniper rifle, therefore DPS is a used as a measurement vs snipers, where it's a matter of the one shot damage.

[tsubasakuroi]

I'm in favor of the crit buff.

 

Not sure about the damage. Pushing it any further, and that seems like it's intruding on the Burston's territory now.

[Namacyst]

Why do people use DPS as a measurement in this thread or any thread?

 

It assumes several things that are not safe assumptions

1. All shots hit

2. You're not doing burst fire

3. No head shots

4. No crits

 

Vandal has a higher accuracy and has a much easier time connecting every bullet to the target at any distance past 10 meters (most combats)

Higher accuracy means more head shots

More bullets hitting means more chances to crit

 

Vandal is still better against anything that isn't giant like Golem or Jackal.

 

As i said in my initial post.. test it out. The accuracy difference between the Braton and Braton Vandal is so minimal and virtually non existant that you can't count it as an advantage of the Vandal over the normal Braton.

 

I'm in favor of the crit buff.

 

Not sure about the damage. Pushing it any further, and that seems like it's intruding on the Burston's territory now.

 

Burston needs a buff, too ^^ The other solution would be nerfing the Braton back to make the Vandal better but i personally don't want that. DE said themselfes.. it's better to buff something to make it viable compared to something else instead of nerfing something.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Namacyst

[KvotheTheArcane1]

As i said in my initial post.. test it out. The accuracy difference between the Braton and Braton Vandal is so minimal and virtually non existant that you can't count it as an advantage of the Vandal over the normal Braton.

 

 

Burston needs a buff, too ^^ The other solution would be nerfing the Braton back to make the Vandal better but i personally don't want that.

Agreed, nerfing isn't the way to go.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

In that case I think the discussion of what to do with the Braton Vandal should center around accuracy.

[Namacyst]

In that case I think the discussion of what to do with the Braton Vandal should center around accuracy.

 

I disagree.. the increase of accuracy is part of what to do with the Vandal but far from being the centre.

 

If you increase the accuracy of the Vandal you would improve the damage dealing potential beyond a certain range but not the damage dealt directly. The Braton and Braton Vandal are already very accurate on low and mid range so that's not the problem. Where the Vandal would be more accurate on long range if you increase the accuracy (which you should but not by much.. just enough to see a difference between both guns to stay true to the flavor text), the normal Braton could still just spray&pray with it's superior fire rate and achieve the same if not better results with lesser ammo efficiency when it comes to damage dealt. We talk ranges here meant for weapons like Latron or Snipetron and a Braton should not perform as good as those weapons at those ranges because Braton is automatic.

 

Lato Vandal is currently 6 points ahead of the normal Lato so i think atleast 5 points of additional base damage are necessary to give the Braton Vandal a slightly better DPS again than normal Braton when you take normal Bratons fire rate into account ( and concidering the previous post where compared DPS of both weapons is shown). Increasing fire rate of the Vandal should not be an option (against flavor text and Vandal traits), increase of accuracy is welcome but on it's own not a solution and as i said... increase of crit chance by another 2.5% is more a bonus than a reliable DPS increase (and is not mentioned in the flavor).

[IspanoLFW1]

Cannot agree, no matter what you try to put forth. No exclusive item should ever be better statwise than what can be obtained in game, and in some ways, the Vandals already are.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Cannot agree, no matter what you try to put forth. No exclusive item should ever be better statwise than what can be obtained in game, and in some ways, the Vandals already are.

Sure, but how about a different form of the same DPS? I.e. 10 shots at 20 damage in one second vs 20 shots at 10 damage in one second? What's wrong with that? (as the flavor text states, higher damage, slower fire rate)

edit: And I think only the lato vandal is better than the default lato in everyway minus a little fire rate (the dps is higher I think), the braton vandal is worse in terms of DPS than the braton.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1