Forma, Braton And Braton Vandal

[IspanoLFW1]

Sure, but how about a different form of the same DPS? I.e. 10 shots at 20 damage in one second vs 20 shots at 10 damage in one second? What's wrong with that? (as the flavor text states, higher damage, slower fire rate)

edit: And I think only the lato vandal is better, the braton vandal is worse in terms of DPS.

 

Stop comparing in flat DPS and you might find something. Accuracy, Burst fire control, even Mastery Rank, as little as it means. The first two could easily make the gun preferred for certain play styles.

[Enot83]

Tell me about your braton dps when your clip is 0 and ammo is 0 and you have no boxes?  Please... I'd like to know how your dps with your braton is.

 

The Vandal version has better damage per bullet fired.  No matter how much forma (if equivalent amounts are used on each), this will not change unless the stats on the weapons are changed.

 

The same amount of bullets fired, the vandal will hit more times where its aimed, and potentially hit for more.  Due to the fire rate being so similar, most would opt for a weapon that has higher damage per round.

 

To put it simply, the vandal is a better weapon, also currently exclusive.  No buffs are needed to it, I don't agree that it is exclusive and better, but in a game like this, with customization that makes the braton vandal not the "best" for all players by any means, I can currently overlook its existence and exclusiveness.  Most similar games, would phase an item like this out over time anyway as the game evolves, attempting to keep it above others is going to be received negatively by those who begin playing in the future.

 

If anything it should be equivalent to the braton, and distinguished by its design, sound etc.

 

If you need an exclusive weapon to give you an edge even "end game" it's rather sad.

[fatpig84]

A slight 2 to 3 point damage to the Vandal won't hurt.
But the Burston needs A LOT of love.

It needs to do at least 30 damage minimum.

[matrixEXO]

Rather, would like to see the crit chance bumped to 12.5%. Given that it is already at peak damage on it's own type, it should be having a high crit chance to balance itself instead. Either that or reduce Braton's damage by 1 or 2. Just 1 or 2 would make a whole definite (but not major) difference in terms of damage profile so I wouldn't mind a minor nerf.

Edited June 4, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Tekkaman-Blade]

Why are we even asking that one of the best primaries in the game get a buff?

 

Braton Vandal is a weapon you could take into any mission and pull your weight. Are there other weapons that are better for specific maps/situations? Definitely, but those weapons are also hosed in other areas.

 

I propose a change to flavor text, not a change to stats. If DE does decide to change stats though I would prefer they only touch accuracy and crit rate. Use those to define this weapon from the Braton.

 

Edit: A buff to damage will have a butterfly effect. Serration+elemental mods=woah nelly

Edited June 4, 2013 by Tekkaman-Blade

[Enot83]

Edit: A buff to damage will have a butterfly effect. Serration+elemental mods=woah nelly

Careful now. Don't go trying to bring any logic or math into this thread, it might get crazy.

It amazes me that people still fail to grasp, that the vandal is a better weapon, even with forma. I don't want more buffs for the vandal, but at least with minor tweaks to crit damage/chance the changes are vastly more controllable than even 1 point of damage.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[PaperAlien]

Although I don't particularly mind if the Vandal is weaker (it's still a status symbol), I do agree with the description lying, and the Braton was kinda overbuffed anyway. For something that didn't have many flaws at 16-17 damage, giving it 25% extra DPS was quite uncalled for when you have weapons like the Grakata and every single research weapon, which are much more deserving of attention.

[Namacyst]

Stop comparing in flat DPS and you might find something. Accuracy, Burst fire control, even Mastery Rank, as little as it means. The first two could easily make the gun preferred for certain play styles.

Accuracy of both weapons are the same when you play the weapons and are only different on paper. Burst fire control of both weapons is the same unless you max out a fire rate mod which benefits the normal Braton more resulting in more DPS. The mention of Mastery Rank is total bullS#&$ for both weapons. In the end it indeed comes down to DPS and comparison of both weapons unmodded because mods .. as the name says are modifications to shift a weapon where the user wants it to be and therefor lacks any foundation of comparison. If you mod both weapons the same the normal Braton currently is better than the Vandal when it comes to DPS due to higher fire rate because everything that should make the Vandal better (more damage, better accuracy, polarity slot) is simply not there anymore.

 

I personally don't give a F*** about the Vandal being exclusive and not available to everyone. It's a matter of principle and the intend behind the first release of the Braton Vandal and Vandal gear as a whole. "Vandal" is a trait, a specialization with clear rules how it affects a weapon. Vandal gear does more damage than normal gear, shoots slower than normal gear and has a slightly, neglegible higher crit chance. The extra polarity you can forget by now since the Forma implementation and even the "polarity is free"-statement is bullS#&$ because Forma is way easier to get than potatoes.

 

So as a principle... make it right! Either Buff the Braton Vandal so it clearly does more damage than a normal Braton with reduced fire rate so it mathces the flavor text and is true to the Vandal traits again or nerf the Braton back to 16-18 Damage for the same results which, as i said already... i personally don't want.

 

DE removed the Snipetron because it did not fit the lore. DE let's the Lato Vandal stay as it is compared to the normal Lato which is true to the Vandal traits. DE tweaks Gorgon and Shotguns to give them their rightful place in gunplay. So i ask.. how is buffing the Braton Vandal base damage different from all this or the last Buff for the normal Braton? There is no difference because it's the right thing to do.

[MXXVI]

"It's a matter of principle and the intend behind the first release of the Braton Vandal and Vandal gear as a whole."

 

You're right, it is a matter of principle.

 

The principle being - you do not give a very limited set of players a unique weapon that can no longer be acquired by anybody else...which also has superior stats. It was a stupid idea to begin with.

 

The Braton Vandal is still more than viable. If DE want to re-release the weapon once the game emerges from beta as a high-rank version of the Braton which must be bought with plat or built, then maybe we can talk about adjusting its stats. But until then, it's a nice little vanity item, and should not be anything more than this.

 

 

As for lore discrepancies - are you high? The game's lore is all over the place. We have Grineer soldiers running around shouting "THERE HE IS!" in reference to Hayden Tenno - a character from the original incarnation of Dark Sector, loot dropping from the wrong types of enemy, and vague references to a back story that has yet to be properly fleshed out.

 

If you're going to argue that hard game stats be changed to favour the lore, we may as well throw balance right out the window.

[Amistyrja]

In conclusion, 4 points of damage wouldn't make it better than the braton, let alone the 1-2 you were talking about.

Isn't the Braton supposed to have a higher dps than the Braton Vandal in the first place? I was always under the impression that the Vandal was a more practical option with better ammo efficiency and damage.

[Namacyst]

"It's a matter of principle and the intend behind the first release of the Braton Vandal and Vandal gear as a whole."

 

You're right, it is a matter of principle.

 

The principle being - you do not give a very limited set of players a unique weapon that can no longer be acquired by anybody else...which also has superior stats. It was a stupid idea to begin with.

 

The Braton Vandal is still more than viable. If DE want to re-release the weapon once the game emerges from beta as a high-rank version of the Braton which must be bought with plat or built, then maybe we can talk about adjusting its stats. But until then, it's a nice little vanity item, and should not be anything more than this.

 

 

As for lore discrepancies - are you high? The game's lore is all over the place. We have Grineer soldiers running around shouting "THERE HE IS!" in reference to Hayden Tenno - a character from the original incarnation of Dark Sector, loot dropping from the wrong types of enemy, and vague references to a back story that has yet to be properly fleshed out.

 

If you're going to argue that hard game stats be changed to favour the lore, we may as well throw balance right out the window.

 

I think you misread what i meant by lore or just did not understand. Same goes for my intention regarding the Buff of the Braton Vandal. You should read the whole thread again because i made very valid points why one should concider a buff and not disregard it by default because the Braton Vandal is not owned.

 

Isn't the Braton supposed to have a higher dps than the Braton Vandal in the first place? I was always under the impression that the Vandal was a more practical option with better ammo efficiency and damage.

 

Braton more DPS? Yes but it was never supposed to be that way. Braton Vandal more Damage? No ..atleast not since the Braton Buff and after the Forma implementation the Vandal even tends to be worse than the normal Braton. All what made the Braton Vandal the intended better Braton has gone down the drain by now. that's what this thread is about. Braton Vandal deserves a buff like the normal Braton did back in the day.

[IspanoLFW1]

Accuracy of both weapons are the same when you play the weapons and are only different on paper. Burst fire control of both weapons is the same unless you max out a fire rate mod which benefits the normal Braton more resulting in more DPS. The mention of Mastery Rank is total bullS#&$ for both weapons. In the end it indeed comes down to DPS and comparison of both weapons unmodded because mods .. as the name says are modifications to shift a weapon where the user wants it to be and therefor lacks any foundation of comparison. If you mod both weapons the same the normal Braton currently is better than the Vandal when it comes to DPS due to higher fire rate because everything that should make the Vandal better (more damage, better accuracy, polarity slot) is simply not there anymore.

 

I personally don't give a F*** about the Vandal being exclusive and not available to everyone. It's a matter of principle and the intend behind the first release of the Braton Vandal and Vandal gear as a whole. "Vandal" is a trait, a specialization with clear rules how it affects a weapon. Vandal gear does more damage than normal gear, shoots slower than normal gear and has a slightly, neglegible higher crit chance. The extra polarity you can forget by now since the Forma implementation and even the "polarity is free"-statement is bullS#&$ because Forma is way easier to get than potatoes.

 

So as a principle... make it right! Either Buff the Braton Vandal so it clearly does more damage than a normal Braton with reduced fire rate so it mathces the flavor text and is true to the Vandal traits again or nerf the Braton back to 16-18 Damage for the same results which, as i said already... i personally don't want.

 

DE removed the Snipetron because it did not fit the lore. DE let's the Lato Vandal stay as it is compared to the normal Lato which is true to the Vandal traits. DE tweaks Gorgon and Shotguns to give them their rightful place in gunplay. So i ask.. how is buffing the Braton Vandal base damage different from all this or the last Buff for the normal Braton? There is no difference because it's the right thing to do.

 

I cannot remember ONE game, not a single game, that gave exclusives to players that was superior to in game choices in any way. There have been pre-order and CE bonus items in game that were better for a given level, but always got replaced. Those items also never affected a rank the player may have had. It was a nice perk for a period of time, then stashed away or discarded.

 

Every sane company I know, limits exclusives as such to very minor stats or cosmetic. And there's reasons for that, especially in a game like this where your weapon choice can make all the worlds difference.

 

Lastly, I have not called for the Vandal to be Skin/Sound Vanity only, with the same stats as the Braton and no Mastery Rating associated with it. I have not asked for the weapon myself. I have not asked them to give it out. Nor will I. I find it childish and selfish that you would want something exclusive as such, buffed when it already is clearly better in some ways.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Careful now. Don't go trying to bring any logic or math into this thread, it might get crazy.

It amazes me that people still fail to grasp, that the vandal is a better weapon, even with forma. I don't want more buffs for the vandal, but at least with minor tweaks to crit damage/chance the changes are vastly more controllable than even 1 point of damage.

errr not really. 1 point of damage could equal another 5-6 damage tops. Crit chance is too unreliable to be useful for calculating damage, same with crit damage. Going off of base stats, the braton vandal is behind by nearly 40dps, 3 points of damage would bring it up to about the same damage base, no mods (and would still be comparable with mods)

 

 

 

Stop comparing in flat DPS and you might find something. Accuracy, Burst fire control, even Mastery Rank, as little as it means. The first two could easily make the gun preferred for certain play styles.

The accuracy makes almost NO difference, esp when I can fire the braton in bursts for the same accuracy as the vandal nearly. The biggest difference is when I'm fighting a boss/heavy I can poor out A LOT more DPS than the vandal, while still more or less sniping enemies.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[IspanoLFW1]

errr not really. 1 point of damage could equal another 5-6 damage tops. Crit chance is too unreliable to be useful for calculating damage, same with crit damage. Going off of base stats, the braton vandal is behind by nearly 40dps, 3 points of damage would bring it up to about the same damage base, no mods (and would still be comparable with mods)

 

 

 

The accuracy makes almost NO difference, esp when I can fire the braton in bursts for the same accuracy as the vandal nearly. The biggest difference is when I'm fighting a boss/heavy I can poor out A LOT more DPS than the vandal, while still more or less sniping enemies.

 

The fact that you said almost, means you know there is a difference. To anyone who uses the guns a certain way, they can tell. People may or may not agree, but it's already in the stats.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The fact that you said almost, means you know there is a difference. To anyone who uses the guns a certain way, they can tell. People may or may not agree, but it's already in the stats.

5 "whatever they measure". that's the difference. 33.3 vs 28.6 That's REALLY small, and doesn't make almost any difference. (note, I don't have the vandal, I'm not advocating for it to be "the best gun evar" type of thing, but right now it is worse in every way but accuracy, and even that's only barely better, and not even noticeably)

 

edit:

also "almost no difference" means just that, if you compare 33 "whatever they measure" to 28.5 "whatever they measure" you won't notice almost any difference, outside of close ranges where they BOTH are good. Is there a difference? Yes, is it big or really even noticeable? No.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Enot83]

5 "whatever they measure". that's the difference. 33.3 vs 28.6 That's REALLY small, and doesn't make almost any difference. (note, I don't have the vandal, I'm not advocating for it to be "the best gun evar" type of thing, but right now it is worse in every way but accuracy, and even that's only barely better, and not even noticably)

 

also "almost no difference" means just that, if you compare 33 "whatever they measure" to 28.5 "whatever they measure" you won't notice almost any difference, outside of close ranges where they BOTH are good.

 

In a break down the Braton Vandal does more damage per bullet statistically.  Both from its accuracy and having fewer "strays" and its slight crit chance bonus.

 

That is your tradeoff, the Vandal does not need more dps.  If the concern is desire for more dps when holding the mouse down in a bosses face, use a weapon that does that. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

In a break down the Braton Vandal does more damage per bullet statistically.  Both from its accuracy and having fewer "strays" and its slight crit chance bonus.

"Slightly", it doesn't make THAT much of a difference.

 

That is your tradeoff, the Vandal does not need more dps.  If the concern is desire for more dps when holding the mouse down in a bosses face, use a weapon that does that. 

even when the dps is off by a good number? The braton can do what the vandal does fairly well, if not better. Both can be fired in short bursts, making both fairly accurate

In terms of raw dps (i.e. when an ancient is charging you) braton wins. At longer ranges, vandal is better, but not by much and it's almost unnoticeable, both have high fire rates, so often you can tap out shots, but that's a burst weapon's job, a mix between fire rate, dps, and range.

 

Why compare DPS? These aren't snipers, semi auto rifles, etc. They are "machine guns"/assault rifles, fast fire rate, subpar accuracy, ok damage.

[Enot83]

Why compare DPS? These aren't snipers, semi auto rifles, etc. They are "machine guns"/assault rifles, fast fire rate, subpar accuracy, ok damage.

 

And the vandal forgoes some of that in favor of higher accuracy in addition to higher crit chance for better bullet efficiency.  What's your point? that you don't like that there are options and that we should have linear paths of this weapon is better than that weapon across the board.  Furthermore with exclusive items?

 

Also they would be either automatic rifles or SMGs, not machine guns, this is why they have various fire rates/accuracy changes.  These are not the gorgon which would be closer to what you're attributing them to be. 

 

Also, if you're displeased with finding yourself looking down the sights at a charging ancient that is a few meters away, perhaps you should be using a more appropriate weapon, rather than trying to change another weapon to function as another already does.

[IspanoLFW1]

5 "whatever they measure". that's the difference. 33.3 vs 28.6 That's REALLY small, and doesn't make almost any difference. (note, I don't have the vandal, I'm not advocating for it to be "the best gun evar" type of thing, but right now it is worse in every way but accuracy, and even that's only barely better, and not even noticeably)

 

edit:

also "almost no difference" means just that, if you compare 33 "whatever they measure" to 28.5 "whatever they measure" you won't notice almost any difference, outside of close ranges where they BOTH are good. Is there a difference? Yes, is it big or really even noticeable? No.

 

Noticeable to whom? You? Me? Random Joe A or B? Just because you or someone else may feel no difference, doesn't mean all players will.

[Fretless]

Isn't the Braton supposed to have a higher dps than the Braton Vandal in the first place? I was always under the impression that the Vandal was a more practical option with better ammo efficiency and damage.

They were supposed to be roughly equivalent. Originally the Braton Vandal did 25% more damage per shot, while the Braton had 25% faster rate of fire. Now they both do the same damage per shot while the Braton retains the RoF advantage. At the very least, the Braton Vandal ought to be at least on par with the Braton. Personally I liked the original distinctions, as they gave some flavor to both weapons.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And the vandal forgoes some of that in favor of higher accuracy in addition to higher crit chance for better bullet efficiency.  What's your point? that you don't like that there are options and that we should have linear paths of this weapon is better than that weapon across the board.  Furthermore with exclusive items?

No, the crit chance barely makes the bullets better. barely. by 2.5% compared to the braton. 2.5% of 20 is .5 damage. wow. that's so much better.

 

 

 

Also they would be either automatic rifles or SMGs, not machine guns, this is why they have various fire rates/accuracy changes.  These are not the gorgon which would be closer to what you're attributing them to be. 

That's why I said "machine guns" as the braton is off by ~1.2 fire rate compared to the gorgon, and has it instantly in exchange for less clip size, while the braton vandal is closer to the assault rifle type of gun (if it had higher damage. trade off would be fire rate for it)

 

Also, if you're displeased with finding yourself looking down the sights at a charging ancient that is a few meters away, perhaps you should be using a more appropriate weapon, rather than trying to change another weapon to function as another already does.

 

No, the thing is, you WILL be charged by ancients on higher level missions, you can't pretend you won't ever be charged, because of the spawn numbers, so they should be about equal in terms of DPS, not one being better in terms of damage than the other. Both should be about the same.

 

 

Noticeable to whom? You? Me? Random Joe A or B? Just because you or someone else may feel no difference, doesn't mean all players will.

fair enough, some people can tell the difference with enough use. But do you think (assuming 100 = perfectly accurate on assault rifles like it does on the Dera) that less than 5% is really that noticeable? Most people couldn't tell the difference unless it's REALLY long range with the gun, and maybe not even then.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Enot83]

No, the crit chance barely makes the bullets better. barely. by 2.5% compared to the braton. 2.5% of 20 is .5 damage. wow. that's so much better.

In addition to accuracy.  So then it is accurate as I have said, to say the Vandal is better bullet to bullet in comparison to the Braton.

 

That's why I said "machine guns" as the braton is off by ~1.2 fire rate compared to the gorgon, and has it instantly in exchange for less clip size, while the braton vandal is closer to the assault rifle type of gun (if it had higher damage. trade off would be fire rate for it)

Fire rate alone does not make a weapon a machine gun.  I'm not even sure you grasp what differentiates one type of firearm from another if going by what you've posted.  That is to say, you're trying to bring something into the argument as a reason and you're fumbling around with it and unfortunately due to your misconception of the weapons, you have actually made points against your argument.

 

No, the thing is, you WILL be charged by ancients on higher level missions, you can't pretend you won't ever be charged, because of the spawn numbers, so they should be about equal in terms of DPS, not one being better in terms of damage than the other. Both should be about the same.

I'll set the argument aside of player skill etc and assume your situation is true in all/most cases etc, I again ask you, why are you bringing a weapon that you know is not optimal for that situation you're going to find yourself in.  Then making an argument that the weapon you did bring should now magically function like another that you should have brought.  This is just willful retardation to walk into a situation with the wrong weapon, and use that as justification why the weapon should be improved... should we start using this logic on all weapons across the board? Or shall we just pick and choose which ones that we "like". 

 

 

 

Both should be about the same.

Give the identical stats, argument complete.  Since you're either going to have 2 weapons that offer different approaches, equal weapons or an imbalance that favors an exclusive item.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[IspanoLFW1]

fair enough, some people can tell the difference with enough use. But do you think (assuming 100 = perfectly accurate on assault rifles like it does on the Dera) that less than 5% is really that noticeable? Most people couldn't tell the difference unless it's REALLY long range with the gun, and maybe not even then.

 

I can't find two weapons to compare that have a 4.7 accuracy difference, but a few that are 6.7 accuracy apart. And while being a bigger gap, would be more noticeable, it's like night and day with those weapons. So I can be fairly confident that I would notice the difference.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

In addition to accuracy.  So then it is accurate as I have said, to say the Vandal is better bullet to bullet in comparison to the Braton.

BY LESS THAN 5% THAT IS SO MUCH. look, it's like 4.7%, that's not gonna make a difference minus long ranges, if they made the difference REALLY noticeable, that'd be different (like say 15%, that gives it a different playstyle compared to what it is right now)

 

Fire rate alone does not make a weapon a machine gun.  I'm not even sure you grasp what differentiates one type of firearm from another if going by what you've posted.  That is to say, you're trying to bring something into the argument as a reason and you're fumbling around with it and unfortunately due to your misconception the weapons, you have actually made points against your argument.

 

Fair enough fire rate =/= machine gun, how ever it plays more like a sub machine gun, my argument there was bad. (submachine gun = close range, high rate, clipsize generally decent, while a machine gun is high rate, close to mid rangeish, big clip generally yes?)

 

I'll set the argument aside of player skill etc and assume your situation is true in all/most cases etc, I again ask you, why are you bringing a weapon that you know is not optimal for that situation you're going to find yourself in. 

Many reasons, one is that there are way worse weapons to bring, i.e. snipers, but even those could do fairly well.

 

Then making an argument that the weapon you did bring should now magically function like another that you should have brought. 

 

what, having the same DPS, but doing it a different way? Wow, yeah that's magical alright. It's a side-grade, not an upgrade, therefore shouldn't it be able to do the same thing pretty much?

 

This is just willful retardation to walk into a situation with the wrong weapon, and use that as justification why the weapon should be improved...

Every weapon minus snipers (imo) can be decent in any situation.

 

should we start using this logic on all weapons across the board? Or shall we just pick and choose which ones that we "like". 

Should every weapon be able to deal with every situation? Maybe, maybe not. But it's not just vs one thing that the vandal is worse at. Vs hordes, braton wins, vs bosses, braton has better damage. Now, vs more solo enemies behind cover, the vandal might be better just because of the BARELY better accuracy/lower RoF so you don't waste quite as much in a burst, and it's supposed to be a "sidegrade" weapon, not an upgrade or downgrade, so it should be able to do the same thing as the braton pretty much.

 

Give the identical stats, argument complete.  Since you're either going to have 2 weapons that offer different approaches, equal weapons or an imbalance that favors an exclusive item.

I disagree, identical stats = boring, however, 10 shots/second doing 20 damage plays differently than 20 shots/second doing 10 damage do the same thing but play differently (i.e. needing to place shots more carefully vs mass burst/emptying of a clip)

 

I can't find two weapons to compare that have a 4.7 accuracy difference, but a few that are 6.7 accuracy apart. And while being a bigger gap, would be more noticeable, it's like night and day with those weapons. So I can be fairly confident that I would notice the difference.

such as? Don't compare Boltos vs something like the viper either, two different types of weapons, just like the vuklar is a sniper vs the braton's submachine gun/assault rifle role.

Edited June 4, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[IspanoLFW1]

such as? Don't compare Boltos vs something like the viper either, two different types of weapons, just like the vuklar is a sniper vs the braton's submachine gun/assault rifle role.

 

Nah, no way I'd do that. Viper/Furis are both 15.4. Twin Viper/Afuris are 8.7. Difference of 6.7. Easily noticeable. And to be fair the fire rate differences to affect it to some degree, but even with minimal shots fired I can tell.

Edited June 4, 2013 by IspanoLFW1