Most Useful Frames I Found.

[Niryco]

I mainly mean defence as normal missions is rather easy.

 

And as I said, majority of frames is good, warframe have a nice balance.

But Loki, as a starting frame you can pick, is very strong.

 

You can pick many frames in this game, farm for many, pay for them all, but you can also get very cheap away if you spend platinum, by just getting Loki and buying the Female warframe bundle.

This is my main point.

 

Also that melee damage do more damage then distance weapons, which is quite normal.

And in order to maximize this you need speed, which Loki or Ashe brings, and above all, their invisibility further enchances this, where Lokis is better then Ashe.

And for infested missions, A maxed out decoy survive redicilously long, cost very little, and you can easy choke in infested for massive damage from other frames such as ember.

Isn't the point of loki to be an advanced frame? It gives experienced players more room to operate which is less forgiving to those who can't use it.

[GaleParadox]

Ehh, I really dont care for what you have to say. I have frost prime with all of the prime weapons. Weeeeeeeeeee!

[krisp]

I used to melee Toxic Ancients, but then I took a nerfbat to the Iron Skin.

 

I want some confirmation on that bonus damage while invisible thing differing for Ash and Loki. I guess I'll test it out later.

 

Ash's invis has the perk of stunning things that are currently trying to hit you, and an ult that actually does damage and ignores armor. Shuriken is good now too

 

Frost is useful as hell. Snowglobe doesn't have limited health so in missions where enemies actually do a whole lot of damage (Outer Terminus?) not having a Frost is shooting yourself in the foot, I don't care how many Decoys you set up. And why are people forgetting about Avalanche, it's still a useful ultimate to clear fodder with.

 

Trinity is *efficient* but just boring. You overlooked the more high-tier frames like Banshee and Vauban. Vauban has the Snowglobe equivalent for Infested and can permastun them easily, and that's not even his ult. Banshee has Sonar and the ult also staggers enemies across its duration, making for good utility while your allies deal damage.

 

OP is mostly opinion. If you want to convince me, you'll have to bring math.

Edited June 4, 2013 by krisp

[Bakim0n0]

I want some confirmation on that bonus damage while invisible thing differing for Ash and Loki. I guess I'll test it out later.

You're welcome to test it but there is no difference with any frame in regards to the unaware mechanic.

the bonus damage is not a frame / skill thing it's an "unaware enemy" thing. You get that bonus damage if you sneak up on an enemy before the alarm goes off or if you are invis from shade regardless of which frame you are on.

*edit*

And it's the same exact bonus to boot.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[NeverNever]

As I previously pointed out, the OP is not nearly as experienced as they think they are.

To try to suggest that the zorans have competitive dps to the gram or any heavy actually is a bit silly (zoran have about half the charge time and a quarter of the charge damage) but on top of that he suggests there is a difference between un-alerted mechanics between frames is a repeatedly proven falsehood.

 

To be fair, on Palus? Yes, absolutely. On Outer Terminus? Doubtful... maybe for a very very very very highly skilled player who made no mistakes.

Well, obviously, if he'd attempted to run melee in a tier 3 void mission, he'd know that melee falls off hugely and ranged damage ALWAYS beats it out.

[Waagabondh]

Isn't the point of loki to be an advanced frame? It gives experienced players more room to operate which is less forgiving to those who can't use it.

 

 

Isn't the point of loki to be an advanced frame? It gives experienced players more room to operate which is less forgiving to those who can't use it.

 

Isn't the point of loki to be an advanced frame? It gives experienced players more room to operate which is less forgiving to those who can't use it.

 

Yes. In order to maximize Loki this is correct.

And again here comes zorens attacks in. The slide attack hits everything in its path, you need to ensure you do it correctly, which is not hard.

Decoy is far better then most seem to think, and the ability to switch teleport is not a bad option when you are focused on melee.

 

The weapons in warframe is rather balanced, everyone have their pros and cons.

Some stick out more then others however.

Ether is great for their armor penetration, which means little vs infested but is great vs grinear and corpus.

Heat swords are a good mix of both, hard hitting charged attacks and an aoe fire bomb at jump attacks, great vs infested.

 

Zorens have their attack speed and great special attacks not just for movement and covering ground but also for damage.

Zoren charge speed is redicilous with charge recoil.

 

Any weapon is good when fully modded.

The thing with a fully modded zoren is that you will kill anything in a charged attack from invisible apart from ancients, where you will need 2, 3 charged attacks. Given the speed at which you charge, you will take down ancients faster then grams or heavy weapons this way.

It requires alot more from you as a player however. Its alot easier to swing heavy weapons and do jump attacks for massive cc knockdowns, which is a great advantage they have (fragor and scindo especially).

 

I should not say zoren is best melee weapon cause they are not. But in my opinion, they are probably the best for Loki, due to his invisibility enchancing melee attacks, where melee attack speed and charge attacks get to insane amounts of damage. And loki can more or less permanently be invisible during defence missions once he have a decently upgraded flow mod. Now this is infested missions mainly, as they are packed, and infested drops energy balls as if it was popcorn. You just dont run out.

Lokis invisibility lasts 10 seconds, compared to ashe version that lasts 6 seconds, with a 1 second casting animation, making ashe fully upgraded "invisibility" last 5 seconds. Sure it costs half as much, but Ashe also have far less energy then Loki.

[-..-]

If you can get to wave 100 without a frost, then you are a god. You must not play enough high level content to understand his usefulness. Without frost, it would literally be impossible to get past wave 20 on outer terminus

[Waagabondh]

I used to melee Toxic Ancients, but then I took a nerfbat to the Iron Skin.

 

I want some confirmation on that bonus damage while invisible thing differing for Ash and Loki. I guess I'll test it out later.

 

Ash's invis has the perk of stunning things that are currently trying to hit you, and an ult that actually does damage and ignores armor. Shuriken is good now too

 

Frost is useful as hell. Snowglobe doesn't have limited health so in missions where enemies actually do a whole lot of damage (Outer Terminus?) not having a Frost is shooting yourself in the foot, I don't care how many Decoys you set up. And why are people forgetting about Avalanche, it's still a useful ultimate to clear fodder with.

 

Trinity is *efficient* but just boring. You overlooked the more high-tier frames like Banshee and Vauban. Vauban has the Snowglobe equivalent for Infested and can permastun them easily, and that's not even his ult. Banshee has Sonar and the ult also staggers enemies across its duration, making for good utility while your allies deal damage.

 

OP is mostly opinion. If you want to convince me, you'll have to bring math.

 

I used to melee Toxic Ancients, but then I took a nerfbat to the Iron Skin.

 

I want some confirmation on that bonus damage while invisible thing differing for Ash and Loki. I guess I'll test it out later.

 

Ash's invis has the perk of stunning things that are currently trying to hit you, and an ult that actually does damage and ignores armor. Shuriken is good now too

 

Frost is useful as hell. Snowglobe doesn't have limited health so in missions where enemies actually do a whole lot of damage (Outer Terminus?) not having a Frost is shooting yourself in the foot, I don't care how many Decoys you set up. And why are people forgetting about Avalanche, it's still a useful ultimate to clear fodder with.

 

Trinity is *efficient* but just boring. You overlooked the more high-tier frames like Banshee and Vauban. Vauban has the Snowglobe equivalent for Infested and can permastun them easily, and that's not even his ult. Banshee has Sonar and the ult also staggers enemies across its duration, making for good utility while your allies deal damage.

 

OP is mostly opinion. If you want to convince me, you'll have to bring math.

 

I used to melee Toxic Ancients, but then I took a nerfbat to the Iron Skin.

 

I want some confirmation on that bonus damage while invisible thing differing for Ash and Loki. I guess I'll test it out later.

 

Ash's invis has the perk of stunning things that are currently trying to hit you, and an ult that actually does damage and ignores armor. Shuriken is good now too

 

Frost is useful as hell. Snowglobe doesn't have limited health so in missions where enemies actually do a whole lot of damage (Outer Terminus?) not having a Frost is shooting yourself in the foot, I don't care how many Decoys you set up. And why are people forgetting about Avalanche, it's still a useful ultimate to clear fodder with.

 

Trinity is *efficient* but just boring. You overlooked the more high-tier frames like Banshee and Vauban. Vauban has the Snowglobe equivalent for Infested and can permastun them easily, and that's not even his ult. Banshee has Sonar and the ult also staggers enemies across its duration, making for good utility while your allies deal damage.

 

OP is mostly opinion. If you want to convince me, you'll have to bring math.

 

Yeah Iron skin nerf to Rhino was kind of needed but unf his other abilities are just not good at all.

Toxic ancients you use ranged on, only Rhino earlier could go in and be completely immune to everything from them.

I played him during his glory days and he was rather op.

 

Shuriken on Ashe is very strong. And easy to get maxed out.

 

Trinity is boring as hell, but she is never the less rather over powered. Her skills in my opinion is not correctly balanced.

 

I do believe Ashe and Lokis invisibility does give same damage bonus, Loki being able to use it more often though, due to a higher energy pool and invisibility lasting 10 seconds.

It costs twice as much, but again, Loki have a much higher energy pool making it possible for him to be permanently invisible during a wave of infested, something ashe can not afford to be in most cases.

Vs infested Lokis #4 ability also does damage.

Ashe can take a better beating due to his higher hp, shield and innate armor.

Ashe does not have Decoy however which is a great group utility skill, especially in infested missions.

Its an underused skill, which shows just here, as many dont seem to understand just how good it actually is. And again, especially vs infested.

As grinear and Corpus keep distance, Decoy in general is far from as good.

[Waagabondh]

If you can get to wave 100 without a frost, then you are a god. You must not play enough high level content to understand his usefulness. Without frost, it would literally be impossible to get past wave 20 on outer terminus

 

Frost is required on high wave Corpus especially missions. I still dont think he is required there either, but he makes life ALOT easier.

He is not needed on Infested defence missions.

[Waagabondh]

Btw Gram > Scindo, especially if u wanna be fast (and you want it) 1 extra hit while in stealth = 1k+ extra dmg

 

Overall, I have to say Scindo is better.

For Loki, attack speed during invisibility is everything. As such, Gram, I agree is stronger.

But you need a reach mod in it to make it that much better.

[Bakim0n0]

Yes. In order to maximize Loki this is correct.

And again here comes zorens attacks in. The slide attack hits everything in its path, you need to ensure you do it correctly, which is not hard.

Decoy is far better then most seem to think, and the ability to switch teleport is not a bad option when you are focused on melee.

 

The weapons in warframe is rather balanced, everyone have their pros and cons.

Some stick out more then others however.

Ether is great for their armor penetration, which means little vs infested but is great vs grinear and corpus.

Heat swords are a good mix of both, hard hitting charged attacks and an aoe fire bomb at jump attacks, great vs infested.

 

Zorens have their attack speed and great special attacks not just for movement and covering ground but also for damage.

Zoren charge speed is redicilous with charge recoil.

 

Any weapon is good when fully modded.

The thing with a fully modded zoren is that you will kill anything in a charged attack from invisible apart from ancients, where you will need 2, 3 charged attacks. Given the speed at which you charge, you will take down ancients faster then grams or heavy weapons this way.

It requires alot more from you as a player however. Its alot easier to swing heavy weapons and do jump attacks for massive cc knockdowns, which is a great advantage they have (fragor and scindo especially).

 

I should not say zoren is best melee weapon cause they are not. But in my opinion, they are probably the best for Loki, due to his invisibility enchancing melee attacks, where melee attack speed and charge attacks get to insane amounts of damage. And loki can more or less permanently be invisible during defence missions once he have a decently upgraded flow mod. Now this is infested missions mainly, as they are packed, and infested drops energy balls as if it was popcorn. You just dont run out.

Lokis invisibility lasts 10 seconds, compared to ashe version that lasts 6 seconds, with a 1 second casting animation, making ashe fully upgraded "invisibility" last 5 seconds. Sure it costs half as much, but Ashe also have far less energy then Loki. Y

Ash's invis is also cheaper energy wise on top of having a built in stun.

As for Zorans slide attacks... slide attacks do triple damage compared to normal attacks and all weapons save for single target ones will hit everything in their path and Zorans not only have low damage but they also have a very small hit-box. Ether's armor ignore is nice, but it's a moot point because almost every charged attack ignores armor anyways.

As for the charge attacks... Zoran's charge dps is lackluster at best on top of being very small range. Scindo / Gram / Dual Heat Swords / Hate will all vastly outperform in real damage terms; Furax / Dark Sword even moreso against single targets, the former especially against grineers (most useful against bosses). But you do admit that it's your opinion that Zorans are the best for Loki, just be aware that out of the most experienced players I've met in this game; nearly all of them dislike the Zorans for anything but mobility; and I, myself, after 400+ hours of game play don't feel they are particularly worth using when it matters.

 

[Waagabondh]

this seems to be a min-maxer's post.

 

you make a good case for Loki, but i honestly bought my Frost with platinum, simply because i LOVE ice spells in ANY game i enjoy playing, and Frost has a badass longcoat.

 

 

this seems to be a min-maxer's post.

 

you make a good case for Loki, but i honestly bought my Frost with platinum, simply because i LOVE ice spells in ANY game i enjoy playing, and Frost has a badass longcoat.

 

This I can agree with:-)

Frost looks great, and he does have some great abilities for sure.

Especially useful vs Corpus on defence missions.

 

Vs infested its all about maxmizing damage without taking too much, as they come in waves of many at a time. They swarm.

Ember, Loki, and many other frames are great here.

 

There are many players that does not have the possibility to invest in too much platinum until they find blue prints and build frames for credits.

 

As for those especially I want to make sure they understand that the starter frames are not some junk thrown at you for free.

Both Excalibur and Loki are extremly strong. And as I earlier recomended, the female warframe pack, holds 2 of the stronger frames in the game, in Ember and Trinity, and you get Mag along for the ride.

[RoboDoge]

I mainly mean defence as normal missions is rather easy.

 

And as I said, majority of frames is good, warframe have a nice balance.

But Loki, as a starting frame you can pick, is very strong.

 

You can pick many frames in this game, farm for many, pay for them all, but you can also get very cheap away if you spend platinum, by just getting Loki and buying the Female warframe bundle.

This is my main point.

 

Also that melee damage do more damage then distance weapons, which is quite normal.

And in order to maximize this you need speed, which Loki or Ashe brings, and above all, their invisibility further enchances this, where Lokis is better then Ashe.

And for infested missions, A maxed out decoy survive redicilously long, cost very little, and you can easy choke in infested for massive damage from other frames such as ember.

I have Loki to, on normal missions i dont even use any of my powers ( or rarely i pop radial disarm or decoy when i see group mate in trouble). I mostly run and gun everything. This game is not challenging right now. And on high defense waves it is obsolete to use anything that is not decoy (maybe rad disarm for corpus and greneer, and maybe ( i you find if useful and tactical ) to switch teleport on ancients on some maps ). Loki is fun to play if you know what are you doing, but you can apply the same thing to any other class.

[Kishward]

You're entitled to your opinions but don't pretend they are anything but. Vauban has a skill that makes all infested completely irrelevant and you repeatedly mention how some frames are only that useful in defense maps (which is one of the only places in the game with any real difficulty) and outright ignore their benefits and how powerful their skills really are when used correctly.

Gonna agree with you here Bakim0n0.

Your thread is entirely opinion driven, OP. Regardless I really do like to read about what people prefer and why, so good read anyhow.

[krisp]

Overall, I have to say Scindo is better.

For Loki, attack speed during invisibility is everything. As such, Gram, I agree is stronger.

But you need a reach mod in it to make it that much better.

Scindo is better overall?

 

Same reach, same attacks. One of them has 30% more attack speed, the other has 25% more damage. The 30% more attack speed translates into a very slightly faster charge attack with the same animation that does the same damage.

 

Since all mods are percent-based, these stats will be the same with maxed mods or with no mods.

Since all damage reduction is percent-based and not flat, there is no dynamic to attack speed vs damage. Higher percentage dps always wins.

 

Gram is better overall, no denying that. Unless there's something I horribly missed, but you didn't point it out.

 

As for Zorens vs Gram: Gram has huge reach, does almost 4x the charge damage, only takes ~2.2x the charge time. 2 Zoren normal hits are lower than 1 gram normal hit. Gram is mostly used for charge attacks, which have larger AoE than the Zorens thus potentially hitting more targets, and as shown above, have higher DPS.

 

There are three points in favor of Zoren: zooming around (likely to get nerfed sooner or later), innate high crit chance/damage (which is less for charged attacks) and ability to charge on the move. However, the extra crits are still not enough dps-wise compared to the Gram.

 

Zooming around is nice. 2.0 speed and a maxed mod is a bit overkill though. I can zoom around with modded Dual Heat Swords too.

Edited June 4, 2013 by krisp

[Yakraan]

Decoy, right now, is near useless. After last patch, playing infested defense missions, 7 infested out of 10 ignored the decoy, even placing it in their path straight in front of them. Don't know if intended or a bug, but definitely noticeable. Could anybody check it?

[Kordy]

lol zorens

 

 

(Gotta love muh Plasma Sword)

 

Decoy, right now, is near useless. After last patch, playing infested defense missions, 7 infested out of 10 ignored the decoy, even placing it in their path straight in front of them. Don't know if intended or a bug, but definitely noticeable. Could anybody check it?

 

Definitely noticing this.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kordy

[Waagabondh]

Ash's invis is also cheaper energy wise on top of having a built in stun.

As for Zorans slide attacks... slide attacks do triple damage compared to normal attacks and all weapons save for single target ones will hit everything in their path and Zorans not only have low damage but they also have a very small hit-box. Ether's armor ignore is nice, but it's a moot point because almost every charged attack ignores armor anyways.

As for the charge attacks... Zoran's charge dps is lackluster at best on top of being very small range. Scindo / Gram / Dual Heat Swords / Hate will all vastly outperform in real damage terms; Furax / Dark Sword even moreso against single targets, the former especially against grineers (most useful against bosses). But you do admit that it's your opinion that Zorans are the best for Loki, just be aware that out of the most experienced players I've met in this game; nearly all of them dislike the Zorans for anything but mobility; and I, myself, after 400+ hours of game play don't feel they are particularly worth using when it matters.

 

 

This is why you need a reach mod maximized to fully get the juice out of Zorens.

Reach was not available earlier, now it is, and it makes zorens much better then before.

Zorans innate high crit and crit multipler makes its charge and normal attacks normalize in damage in the long run, and then you have a much faster hitting weapon and a faster charging weapon at your disposal.

Also, Zorens badly need great mods before truly shining. Every weapon is great with good mods. Some benefit more then others, and I feel that Zorens with good mods truly get to be very powerful.

Vs grinera and Corpus they lack a little, you need a heavily upgraded AP mod, and obviously electricity.

I take out molten impact vs Grinear and Corpus and switch in electricity, when fighting grinear and corpus, and place back molten impact vs infested, taking out the electricity mods.

AP always stays.

I also use preassure point as I have a maxed out fury for attack speed. But its a matter of preference. Preassure points does not add to charge attacks so if you mod for charge attack damage and charge speed, you could take it out.

I use charge attack damage however, but keep PP, since I would only need charge attacks vs ancients, in infested missions.

A normal attack or two will bring down any normal infested minion, even with zoren.

Since you run and swing everything in your path goes down, without invisibility. Use invisibility and you will get anything on a one hit from zoren. And you use charge attacks on ancients. I dont charge attack normal mobs as they go down faster without charge, even though zoren got some very fast charge attacks, and modded, its stupid fast. Thats infestation.

For none infested defence missions and you want to swing zorens, you should focus on charge speed and charge damage mods, take out PP, add AP, Electricity and Reach.

 

For zoren to be effective you must have Reach. You can do a jump attack and hit targets 5-8 meters away with zoren and a maxed out reach.

It surprised me how effective they became.

 

If you lack an AP mod but have ether blades, then always use ether vs grinear and corpus. The AP what makes weapons such as Zoren, Gram, Scindo so powerful also vs grinear and corpus

Furax is another very strong, fast melee weapon vs armored targets. Not to be overlooked obviously.

[Cryp2Nite]

I do believe Ashe and Lokis invisibility does give same damage bonus

Finally convinced? You're welcome, after i pointed out x times in this thread...

Edited June 4, 2013 by Cryp2Nite

[Raikouku]

Rail guns actually have penetrated snow globe.

Im not saying its useless, but due to everyone running around with shade, for rezzing its not needed.

 

Trinitys heal is the most minor thing she have. If you see trinity as a healer then you are not giving her right.

You got a problem with rail gunning birds?:: Throw a link on them, and you dont need snow glove.

You got several, use Trinity #4, not for the heal or energy gain, but you are immune to all forms of damage for a few seconds after this ability is activated.

Trinity brings far more then being able to "heal", she is a far better tank then Rhino or Frost can ever be, due to her Link+energy vampire combo.

 

And for infested missions, indeed a few embers is all you need. Loki however will be on par and possibly out damage an ember even on infested missions though. Invisibility and heavy melee does redicilous amounts of damage, and he is great as an ancient killer.

Still agreed.

 

Again, most frames brings something good, you can never go wrong with your choice of frame in this game.

But there are 4 that stands out above the rest.

 

 

 

You make it seem like Rhino's only ability that was useful before was his ironskin, I main rhino and i honestly never even bother using ironskin. his other abilities are far more useful. his charge may not be as strong as excalibur's but it still can one shot plenty of enemies and knock down others, his Radial blast is also more useful then, when maxxed out it completely destroys anything that isn't a heavy. and his rhino stomp is also helpful with bosses. if you get paired with a trinity that knows how to use Energy vampire you can constantly keep bosses in a stasis which is much more helpful then them being distracted by decoy or anything else cause in stasis they can't attack, move or do anything but just float there and take a beating,

 

As for Frost, Snowglobe isn't his only ability again, And it isn't only used for reviving, in defense missions frost is prolly better then most others due to his snowglobe ability making it where they cant damage the pod unless their in range, in which case their slowed and you can destroy them, as for his other abilities. his freeze is useful for stunning things, it isn't meant for dealing damage, Ice wave deals nice damage if ranked and if used right. as for avalanche, it deals insane damage to hp and double to shields, while stunning them and blinding them for a moment, and its a aoe, which makes it good to use on defense missions or ones where you get swarmed often, like infested.

 

 

In the end the game is made how i think the developers wanted it, each warframe is useful, in the end it is just personal preference on abilities/looks/lore/playstyle/whatever, Saying that only 3 warframes are good and everything else is complete trash or unnecessary is just going too far. 

Edited June 4, 2013 by Raikouku

[Phoenix86]

Never had range issues with Gram honestly, damage is the same, Gram swings faster, for me it's enough to state Gram > Scindo anyway ;)

 

Just my point of view ofc

[Waagabondh]

Scindo is better overall?

 

Same reach, same attacks. One of them has 30% more attack speed, the other has 25% more damage. The 30% more attack speed translates into a very slightly faster charge attack with the same animation that does the same damage.

 

Since all mods are percent-based, these stats will be the same with maxed mods or with no mods.

Since all damage reduction is percent-based and not flat, there is no dynamic to attack speed vs damage. Higher percentage dps always wins.

 

Gram is better overall, no denying that. Unless there's something I horribly missed, but you didn't point it out.

 

As for Zorens vs Gram: Gram has huge reach, does almost 4x the charge damage, only takes ~2.2x the charge time. 2 Zoren normal hits are lower than 1 gram normal hit. Gram is mostly used for charge attacks, which have larger AoE than the Zorens thus potentially hitting more targets, and as shown above, have higher DPS.

 

There are three points in favor of Zoren: zooming around (likely to get nerfed sooner or later), innate high crit chance/damage (which is less for charged attacks) and ability to charge on the move. However, the extra crits are still not enough dps-wise compared to the Gram.

 

Zooming around is nice. 2.0 speed and a maxed mod is a bit overkill though. I can zoom around with modded Dual Heat Swords too.

 

 

Scindo is better overall?

 

Same reach, same attacks. One of them has 30% more attack speed, the other has 25% more damage. The 30% more attack speed translates into a very slightly faster charge attack with the same animation that does the same damage.

 

Since all mods are percent-based, these stats will be the same with maxed mods or with no mods.

Since all damage reduction is percent-based and not flat, there is no dynamic to attack speed vs damage. Higher percentage dps always wins.

 

Gram is better overall, no denying that. Unless there's something I horribly missed, but you didn't point it out.

 

As for Zorens vs Gram: Gram has huge reach, does almost 4x the charge damage, only takes ~2.2x the charge time. 2 Zoren normal hits are lower than 1 gram normal hit. Gram is mostly used for charge attacks, which have larger AoE than the Zorens thus potentially hitting more targets, and as shown above, have higher DPS.

 

There are three points in favor of Zoren: zooming around (likely to get nerfed sooner or later), innate high crit chance/damage (which is less for charged attacks) and ability to charge on the move. However, the extra crits are still not enough dps-wise compared to the Gram.

 

Zooming around is nice. 2.0 speed and a maxed mod is a bit overkill though. I can zoom around with modded Dual Heat Swords too.

 

You forget zorens 30% crit rate and triple damage on crits, double on charge crits. It evens out damage wise over gram.

Also, you need reach with zoren big time, which I have ofc. And yes its a % amount which is why Zoren with attack speed, or charge speed and charge damage, gets the job done extremly well and better then Gram. Not by miles but imo better.

Gram in many cases will over kill anything but ancients. If you lack attack speed, charge speed, charge damage mods, then Gram will beat Scindo.

But Scindo becomes more then fast enough with these mods attacked, and as such simply become better, as you dont need to attack faster in most cases.

Its a matter of taste and preferance here.

 

I still think Zorens beat Gram, but requires more mods to be better, even if both have same mods. With mediocre mods and no fury etc, Zorens will not outperform Gram. Agreed on this.

But 50% attack speed on Zorens give them 3.0 attack speed, and again, the crit consistency of Zorens needs to be taken into consideration as its innate crit is simply so high that it is frequent enough to add to the base damage.

If zorens had a 10% crit, they would not be as good as they are, but now thats not the case.

[Waagabondh]

 

 

You make it seem like Rhino's only ability that was useful before was his ironskin, I main rhino and i honestly never even bother using ironskin. his other abilities are far more useful. his charge may not be as strong as excalibur's but it still can one shot plenty of enemies and knock down others, his Radial blast is also more useful then, when maxxed out it completely destroys anything that isn't a heavy. and his rhino stomp is also helpful with bosses. if you get paired with a trinity that knows how to use Energy vampire you can constantly keep bosses in a stasis which is much more helpful then them being distracted by decoy or anything else cause in stasis they can't attack, move or do anything but just float there and take a beating,

 

As for Frost, Snowglobe isn't his only ability again, And it isn't only used for reviving, in defense missions frost is prolly better then most others due to his snowglobe ability making it where they cant damage the pod unless their in range, in which case their slowed and you can destroy them, as for his other abilities. his freeze is useful for stunning things, it isn't meant for dealing damage, Ice wave deals nice damage if ranked and if used right. as for avalanche, it deals insane damage to hp and double to shields, while stunning them and blinding them for a moment, and its a aoe, which makes it good to use on defense missions or ones where you get swarmed often, like infested.

 

 

In the end the game is made how i think the developers wanted it, each warframe is useful, in the end it is just personal preference on abilities/looks/lore/playstyle/whatever, Saying that only 3 warframes are good and everything else is complete trash or unnecessary is just going too far. 

 

Rhinos only ability was iron skin. His other abilities is lack luster compared to other frames.

Iron skin was nerfed, as it was overpowered.

I also played Rhino alot, he is a great frame, but as much as you want his other abilities to be great, they are lacking compared to other frames.

The main thing Rhino had going, was his Iron Skin, which he have no more.

 

Regarding frost, Snowglobe is useful in Corpus Defence missions. His freeze is definately not bad either.

And overall, if you must bring a tank, he is far more useful then Rhino in a team fight.

 

Rhino is a great solo frame. But so is Trinity. Trinity will add alot more to the team, Rhino will have his #4 during certain occations and obviously his #3.

Rhino charge is not bad at all, probably one of his strongest abilities, unf it is no where near as useful as excaliburs slash dance, where Excalibur also have his Flash and above all a very strong #4 ability.

 

Neither frost or Rhino is useful during infestation defence missions. Rhino could be vs ancients pre nerf, but not anymore.

Better pick other frames that add utility or damage to the team.

 

And if you must bring a tank to an infestation or defence infestation mission, then you bring Ember. Who is also a  main damage dealer there.

#2 for Ember is slightly too strong though imo.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Waagabondh

[Law_Abiding_Engineer]

Ok, for OP, let me be reasonable here and clarify the whole Ash Smoke Screen, and Loki invisibility thing.  In short, you are wrong but its only because of a silly way the powers are worded.

 

So, on a non-charged & non-smoke attack, Ash's melee attack does 100% damage, and Loki's non-charge & non-invisible melee attack also does 100% damage.   And, for the sake of argument, charge attacks with do 150% damage.

 

Now, for Ash's SS, he gains a 50% normal attack bonus for his regular attack (which is 100%) and a 100% bonus on his charged attack (which was 150%).  When you add the bonus 50% to the regular 100%, you get a total of 150% damage for a non-charged melee swing, while in the smoke screen.  For his charged attacks, you take the initial 150% and add the bonus damage, so you get 150%+100% = 250%.   This is because his weapons gain a bonus.

 

As for Loki, while he is invisible, his non-charged attack does 150% damage, instead of the default of 100% damage.  And for his charged attacks, instead of dealing 150% damage, he now does 200% damage with all charged melee attacks, while invisible.  In short, this means that he does slightly less damage when doing charged attacks than Ash..

 

 

Now, there is one assumption that Im making here, and that is that a non-charged attack does 100% damage, instead of 50%, and that a charged attack does 150% damage, instead of 100% damage.  If a non-charged attack does only 50%, while a charged does 100%, then it does make Loki better because when using their respectful abilities, ash would only be able to do 100% damage for non-charged, and 200% damage for charged attacks, while Loki would still be dealing 150% damage for non-charged, and 200% damage for charged.  But like I said, it depends on what percentage of damage is considered non-charged, and what is considered charged.  The main thing is that ash gets a BONUS on top of his default melee damage, while Loki simply gets his "default damage percents", increased.

 

 

Here's a formula that should help.

 

 

X = Non-charged damage %

Y = Charged damage %

 

 

Ash non-charged during SS = X + 50%

Ash charged during SS = Y + 100%

 

Loki non-charged, invisible = 150%

Loki charged, invisible = 200%

 

 

Sorry for long post, but I saw what you were saying, and I think you were confused on the wording of the abilities, an I enjoyed your explanation.  I think Loki a great Warframe, but you have to be willing to rely on weapons to help you take down enemies,rather than pressing buttons for warframe abilities, and expecting sh!t to die.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Law_Abiding_Engineer

[Kespertive]

Frost or Vauban are MUST HAVE in the team on higher level defense missions, enemies just destroy the pod in 10-20 seconds if there is no one to block the bullets/enemies...

Loki has nothing to do on high level defense missions other than shooting... and that he can do anywhere, but that won't save the pod from being destroyed.

How did a few guys reach wave 150? Oh, they had a Vauban, a Trinity and 2 Saryns, aka tank, healer and 2 damage dealers (psst... Loki is none of these)

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kespertive