Rushing Vs Effort

[Archis]

I've only been playing Warframe a few days now and I like the game overall to help satisfy that action game itch I get from time to time. However, when I do use matchmaking for mission I generally get individuals that simply want to rush through the whole mission.

 

I get the idea that the more missions you run in the least amount of time nets you a greater result. It seems strange that all the players that are playing an action game want to simply skip the "action" element. I can't speak about the later stages of the game and that might change (or not) but it's really a turn off to play if 95% of the time I get matched with rushers. It's almost to the point where I'd rather try to solo through many of the missions because there at least I get to play. It's certainly more difficult but at least there's an action game there as opposed to "follow the yellow marker simulator 2013".

 

As I mentioned, I don't know how the missions scale into the later game but it's hard to imagine that anything changes that drastically. This is merely based on experience for the first few systems like Mercury and Saturn. I've a few ideas that might make missions a bit more useful to actually play.

 

-Adding secondary objectives such as a kill counter for certain enemy types that can reward with random mods at the end of a mission. Ex: Kill 50 Grineer during a sabotage mission where players are encouraged to slow down.

 

-More lockdown triggers. Before you flame this hear me out. Lockdowns essentially force the players to stop, clear the area and hack a console. It's nice every once in a while to catch your breath after running 100mph for 10 minutes straight.

 

-Adding an end-of-mission rating survey which allows players to rate others based on their performance. It sounds scary but it shouldn't affect anything other than the people you get matched with on future missions. EX: I finish a mission and rate my party members based on teamplay (covering one another, revives and support), patience, skill, etc. This could be an optional feature of course but at least its something. Whether or not that's a reasonable idea is up to the Devs.

 

-This has probably been suggested already but making credit drops universal for players within a certain proximity. EX: I open a locker with credits with 2 teammates nearby. They will receive credits from my pickups while the rabid rush junkie 4 screens away gets nothing. Sort of how XP proximity works in some MMOs.

 

-Enemies hit HARDER. Another crazy sounding idea I know but this will make it way too dangerous to simply ninja-flip your way to victory.

 

I feel that rushing through a game like this will ultimately ruin it and I feel there's a whole lot of potential and room for growth. I don't have Mountain Dew running through my veins but I do enjoy a nice adrenaline surge especially when looking stylish. I only get this when actually trying to play through a mission the way it was meant to. It doesn't make sense to pretend to play a game when you could actually put in an effort. Imagine how Devil May Cry would be if you could simply walk through the entirety of game without actually doing anything....I'd want a refund.

 

 

[10twenty4]

I feel a better option would be to 1)improve the drop system, so killing enemies is more worthwhile and 2) create more missions which encourage both playstyles. For example, a mission where you plant bombs in an area, which requires defense and fighting enemies. Afterwards, when you activate  the bombs you have to run to the escape, metroid style.

 

Because here's the thing, although you might enjoy fighting hundreds of the same enemy type, many of us enjoy the feeling of speed as we dash past these enemies. And unlike Devil May Cry, we're fairly limited in how cuhrayzee we can get with our combat.

[Gravalite]

I feel a better option would be to 1)improve the drop system, so killing enemies is more worthwhile and 2) create more missions which encourage both playstyles. For example, a mission where you plant bombs in an area, which requires defense and fighting enemies. Afterwards, when you activate  the bombs you have to run to the escape, metroid style.

 

Because here's the thing, although you might enjoy fighting hundreds of the same enemy type, many of us enjoy the feeling of speed as we dash past these enemies. And unlike Devil May Cry, we're fairly limited in how cuhrayzee we can get with our combat.

Exactly this. Unless I'm with a group and we don't want to rush I will always rush through the level. I mean, I can get through Golems level in 5-10 minutes just because of running it over and over because I need neural sensors.

[Hatr]

I get the idea that the more missions you run in the least amount of time nets you a greater result. It seems strange that all the players that are playing an action game want to simply skip the "action" element. 

 

--Adding an end-of-mission rating survey which allows players to rate others based on their performance. It sounds scary but it shouldn't affect anything other than the people you get matched with on future missions. EX: I finish a mission and rate my party members based on teamplay (covering one another, revives and support), patience, skill, etc. This could be an optional feature of course but at least its something. Whether or not that's a reasonable idea is up to the Devs.

This action kinda get boring after a whille, at least after my 300 hours of gameplay i kinda got tired of killing on raid/capture missions because it's repetitive, you kill, kill, kill and kill and kill again and again and you kill kill kill kill.. that's all.. kinda reminds me of crysis 2, a lil bit of story there but 80% of the game is just killing things around.. well warframe is slighty different, because you have to farm a lot too but it's the same S#&$ anyway because for that.. you only have to kill more.

 

End of mission survey for next matchmaking? no.. because there would be some players that are part of the "10%" imagine how are they going to find online matches in that case..

[Guest]

it takes effort to rush

[kaizoku222]

Three things.

 

One, unless you're farming resources (which is better done solo anyway) there is no reason to not "rush".

 

Two, clearing through a level quickly and efficiently does take effort and a large part of the player base thinks that's "fun".

 

Three, everyone has their own arbitrary definition of "rushing" around here, and yours sounds no less arbitrary.

 

The developers have not said how their game is "suppose" to be played, so it's hubris on your part to assume you know what their intent was when designing the levels. You also don't have precedent or design choice in your favor when asserting "rushing" isn't the way the game should be played, as there are wallrunning bits, shortcuts, and the frames are designed to be agile and evasive as well as stealthy in certain settings.

 

So really you're just coming of as another "stop playing the way you want to play so I can play how I want to play" poster, so my suggestion to you is get a clan, use chat to group with like-minded people, or play solo. Don't try to make the game cater to your playstyle when there are plenty of options you could be using to have the experience you want.

[Vabla]

The only thing we need is to have an expanded matchmaking. Checkboxes for what style of game you are going for and only getting teamed with those who are looking for the same.

[Teneroth]

One option I've been messing around with in my mind actually goes the other way from what you suggest. Before I get into it you must admit that rushing a mission can be fun at times, even I have been known to do it (although I far prefer going through and cleaning the levels out). Therefore my idea is two fold: Cater certain missions to Rushers, and certain missions to other types of players. 

 

Let's take a raid mission: when you think raid  you think quick in and out, grabbing something of importance and gtfoing before the enemy can respond. Why not design these missions with 'rushers' in mind? Make it so the longer you take after being detected the more, and stronger, mobs spawn. Start a timer when the player is detected, if they don't get to the objective in a certain time it will become unavailable and the mission with be a fail. This also provides a good mission for the stealth players because mobs don't spawn quickly and a timer doesn't start so long as the player isn't detected. 

 

And for the slower players, like myself, extermination or defense missions are my favorite as killing is the objective, and neither can be rushed. 

 

Other missions like spy or sabotage can cater more to a stealth crowd, where you are rewarded extra if you retrieve the information or destroy the reactor without being detected. With raid missions stealthiness simply makes it easier, if slower, then rushing and doesn't provide any real bonuses. But in a raid mission the quicker to get to the data terminal after being detected and kill the person working there the more data you recover and the more reward you get.

 

Speed is very much a part of this game, hell we are SPACE NINJAS, and speed is one of the thing ninja's were known for. So discouraging the rush crowd altogether isn't a good idea imo, but by tailoring certain missions to reward various play styles players who want to rush can take raid or capture missions, juggernauts like myself who like to wade through the mission knee deep in the bodies of my slain enemies can do that on extermination or defense missions. Stealthy bastards can take spy missions etc. 

 

Now that is not to say that missions can't be done with alternate play styles, you just won't be rewarded as much. Like if I did a 'speed killing spree' on a raid mission, cutting my way through the hoards of enemies with a shotgun, but not doing all the fancy  hard-core-par-core of true rushers I can complete a raid mission, just not as fast or with the same rewards. Similarly a stealthy player can ninja their way through the raid without ever being seen, getting max rewards, but taking longer. 

 

See what I'm getting at?

[MXXVI]

"One, unless you're farming resources (which is better done solo anyway) there is no reason to not "rush"."

 

Apart from enjoyment of the game itself. Its gameplay. Its visuals. Its level design. Its sound design. Just take a moment to breathe in that dark, gothic, sci-fi setting.

 

Some people really do seem to treat this as a job: they feel they "have" to rush because it's more efficient when it comes to acquiring resources in order to build new weapons in order to kill more things in order to...farm more, for more resources, for more weapons to kill more things?

 

It's deranged. Actually quite mad.

 

The loot progression is supposed to supplement the actual game itself... it's not supposed to be the focus of the whole damn thing.

 

But leaving that aside, if you're playing the game so very much that the basic gameplay is boring to you unless you turn every match into a speedrun, then you should probably take a break.

 

"Two, clearing through a level quickly and efficiently does take effort and a large part of the player base thinks that's "fun"."

 

This is one of those big myths that gets thrown up in debates like this over and over: that "quickly" goes hand in hand with "efficiently".

 

Now, I'm sure there are a lot of players out there who have been playing a while and genuinely can clear a level quickly and efficiently. But I haven't met that many.

 

What I've seen, more often, is people running ahead because in a straight fight, with the rest of the team present, they simply aren't quick enough or accurate enough to be "efficient". By rushing, they ensure that they are the first to encounter enemies, and even if they miss a few enemies along the way... they can still reach the finish line first and start typing (I S#&$ you not) "go go go go go go go go go go go" repeatedly as if the rest of the team is letting them down.

 

 

"The developers have not said how their game is "suppose" to be played,"

 

True, but then they did put in two-person door locks as an attempt to convince players to stick together. And a revive system that relies on teammate proximity. And item-carrying gameplay to encourage teammates to cover one another. And a hacking minigame that renders you vulnerable when you're alone.

 

And it is a 4-person mission (not skirmish)-based coop game. The basic nature of the genre is such that the emphasis was always supposed to be on teamwork, whether people are going fast or not.

 

And that, really, is what this all boils down to: teamwork.

 

"Don't try to make the game cater to your playstyle when there are plenty of options you could be using to have the experience you want."

 

People usually only complain about "rushers" and call them "rushers" when they're rushing ahead of the TEAM. When they have taken it upon themselves to define the playstyle for everyone else.

 

I have zero problem with TEAMS rushing. After all, speedruns can be fun. I still think the best part of Mirror's Edge was the timetrial mode.

 

Most of the "anti-rusher" suggestions, such as tougher enemies, should be welcomed by "rushers" who are rushing as part of a speed-run TEAM. Because it's an extra challenge, and this game is pretty easy at the moment. And isn't that one of the rushing excuses anyway? That the game is so easy, you have to come up with your own challenges?

 

But the sheer zeal with which any anti-rushing suggestion is met leads me to believe that people want the right to rush AHEAD. And in a team game, they should find this increasingly difficult.

 

 

@ Teneroth -

 

I like that idea, about enemies getting stronger over time. It's like...a survival mode, but with an actual survival chance.

Edited June 4, 2013 by MXXVI

[Carcharias]

If anyone knows how this game is "supposed" to be played or how to play "proper" that is not on the Dev team, that is called conjecture.

Make a contacts list, collect like minded people on your contacts list, have fun playing however strikes your fancy. I consistently roll with a three man group that clears everything because we are a very small guild and are trying to collect resources for the dojo. Also we don't just play one round, we play many one after the other, by the math at the point it doesn't matter if you rush or not. If you rush you miss stuff and start another game sooner, if you take your time you miss nothing and start the next round a little later. It's a wash over all in a time per resource found ratio. Just got to find like minded peeps.

Playing with random people is a sure way to meet people you don't agree with, and a way to meet people you do agree with. Of course that's how you meet trolls too. When you find the people you do agree with put them on you list, eventually you will have a good list and stop playing with randoms.

( Wait a sec, destroy a reactor without being detected?! You don't think they will notice any thing when the power levels drop off? )

Edited June 4, 2013 by Carcharias

[Teneroth]

( Wait a sec, destroy a reactor without being detected?! You don't think they will notice any thing when the power levels drop off? )

 

Of course they will, but they won't know why. Once the reactor is destroyed everyone goes on alert but if they haven't detected the player(s) yet then they have no reason to know, or even suspect, it was sabotage or poor maintenance or a bad circuit or they ran out of space-fuel, or whatever. Think about it, if you are driving your car along, alone, and the engine suddenly cuts out. Is your first thought 'ninjas?' because I doubt it... and if it is then... you are paranoid :P. Typically you assume that your car is broken down, or the fuel line is pinched or you are simply out of gas. Only when they go to inspect the damage and find bullet holes in the reactor chamber, and realize that half the on duty crew is pinned to the ceiling by arrows that it was sabotage.

[c_man_ninja_gun]

They need to add a system where before you start match making you pick ether "Rush" "Explore" or one that us just going from room to room killing things. I would like this in the game cause when I play Pub match's I can play with other people who like to "rush".  

[kaizoku222]

Still just sounds like a "I have fun playing this way, so everyone should play this way" opinion based not on good game design principles but on exactly that, personal opinion. It's fine to have an opinion and everyone's feedback can be useful, but trying to push a blanket playstyle onto the game in the form of mechanics can drastically change the game and would be an irresponsible opinion to cater to on DE's part.

 

Honestly I've never seen a situation where one person rushes ahead killing nothing causing problems for the rest of the team, not once in my 200+ hours. I *have* seen solo's or duo's fall behind and get swarmed because they're going to slow for how the spawns are paced. Much more of this game encourages going fast than going slow, and again, no one in my 200+ hours has caused a problem in any of my games by going too fast so I really doubt this is even an honest problem to begin with.

[fishworshipper]

Honestly, I've seen both sides.

It's fun to liquefy everything on the way no the extraction when you're a new player, but after a while all you want to do is just finish the damn alert, or get that last Orokin Cell, or get that one piece of armor and slowly killing everything on the way there is just a waste of time.

DE needs to make not rushing more rewarding, rather than penalize rushers.

Edited June 5, 2013 by fishworshipper

[Archis]

OP here. Lots of different opinions mostly constructive. Thank you for the feedback on this. 

 

People usually only complain about "rushers" and call them "rushers" when they're rushing ahead of the TEAM. When they have taken it upon themselves to define the playstyle for everyone else.

 

I have zero problem with TEAMS rushing. After all, speedruns can be fun. I still think the best part of Mirror's Edge was the timetrial mode.

 

This probably sums up the point of my original post the best. If you couldn't tell I wasn't trying to start a flame war or was simply crying on forums out of frustration or anything. The idea was to embrace a new player, such as myself, into wanting to play. I understand the concept of farming but finding party after party of rogues who don't understand how coop is "supposed" to work ruin the experience, turn off a player and, let's face it, destroy any chance of allowing the game to grow on it's own merits. This translates into another F2P flop. Rushing is totally fine in certain circumstances of course but it certainly isn't the preferred approach to EVERY mission.

 

This mindset of assuming everyone will rush, take a different path on the map, getting lost and killed, training a massive force just for the lewtz while letting the rest of the team picks up the slack is not how you'd want to new game to get recognized. This view is my impression solely based on my random party experiences. First impressions apply to games too. And while I did have a list of complaints I also did offer up some suggestions to get people at least thinking about this. At most I could say the suggestions themselves are short-sighted ONLY because of limited playtime.

 

Regardless of what anyone says I like to PLAY games. Games are meant to be played. Most of the time that involves more than shift+W. An overwhelming majority of games offer the same basic premise. You're a character and you go places and kill things. Whether or not you'd like to admit it ALL games have some sort of grind to them so that isn't an argument either. Why are you playing in the first place if you just want endgame now? If you're not here for the virtual experience of being a space ninja then why? WHY!? Am I really just nuts for wanting to play a game? Either way thanks for the responses I'll take some of the advice given.

 

On a side note, CoD ruined the world...just sayin.

[Ferriwind]

Enemies are too easy to kill and the potential drops are discouraging. Only in void missions would players kill everything because at least they still need a mod from there. Once we get bosses that feel like bosses... you'll probably see rushing up to the boss fight.

[fishworshipper]

Enemies are too easy to kill and the potential drops are discouraging. Only in void missions would players kill everything because at least they still need a mod from there. Once we get bosses that feel like bosses... you'll probably see rushing up to the boss fight.

Not to mention in Void missions enemies are FUN to kill.

It doesn't take a single Strun shot to the toe to kill the Heavy Gunners, and they're the funnest to fight.

[BadAimbot]

If you do nothing but run to the end, all you get is credits. If you kill enemies, you get mods. If you loot stuff, you get resources. IMO credits are the least valuable of the 3 and mods are the most, but if people are killing everything while you loot you won't fall that far behind. I'm fine with how things are. I'm all for more incentive to loot, though. People running to the end vs looters is a problem, but any other combination is workable.

[fatpig84]

The game doesn't give much incentive to take it slow. Period.

Unless the rewards given for it are pretty hefty.

 

For example if a Raid mission mini-objective is not to be detected through out the game and awards 2x experience and credit gain.

It still won't be enough.

 

Because a rusher can get the same credit bonus in 2 games and maybe the exp game in 3 games. And if he does play 3 games to meet out the rewards gain, he has a shot at 3 potentially uncommon mods or blueprints. While the stealth player will net only 1 shot at a reward.

 

Now in this game mods and blueprints are still infinitely more valuable than credits or even exp.

So even if the stealth player loots 7 mods in a single slow paced game, the rusher would have 9 because even in my experience in rushing around (slash dash is fuuun), I usually get 2 mods or fusion cores at the very least. Sometimes a single ulti to clear out a choke point drops me even more than that.

 

 

So my point still stands.

Unless significant rewards are given (to the point it is game breaking) to slow down game play, this won't stop the under 5 min game syndrome. :)

Edited June 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[GoodApolloIV]

Just play solo. Kill everything. Get all the mods you can get before exiting the mission. Make fun of your friends for rushing, and how they don't have the cool stuff you have.

[FriedAlbacore]

W/e if you wanna rush and miss those potential rare mods, that's fine with me... if you don't like exploring amazing looking game environments that the designers put secret rooms in, that's okay with me.  No sweat off my back you sprinters.  I solo most things anyways, simply because I'm an old-school player.  I like killing 100+ mobs a mission, coming out with rare mods, and actually getting familiar with my warframe.  It keeps me interested in the game longer. 

 

And no matter what game style you hail from, one thing is certain, doing the same thing over and over gets boring.  I mean lets face it, killing stuff over and over is about as boring as passing the same mobs over and over again.  The only break up to the monotony is how you choose to parkour around.  And the same stands true for different styles of mass murdering...

 

The only things I see changing this at the moment are more valuable mod drops, secondary objectives (which kind of already exists) and kill bonuses.  As it was stated earlier they would have to be worth it for these guys to slow down.  If you get frustrated with how other people play, find others like you using the region chat or simply solo.

 

Ideally, DE will implement or more in-depth matchmaking system, which would allow for options in play-style down the road, but who knows.

Edited June 5, 2013 by FriedAlbacore