Weapons/powers Will Never Be Balanced Until Armor Is Removed From The Game

[Synxxx]

As long as armor still exists you just can't balance weapons around it. Non-armor ignoring weapons (the majority of them) are always going to get worse the higher the enemies scale and that is just embarrassingly bad design in a game like this.

 

Why is *everyone* using Despair/Kunai? Because we finally got an Akbolto that doesn't require you to break your fingers/wrist and damage your mouse to get the most out of it. Being automatic they also aren't affected by the semi-auto fire rate being tied to FPS obviously, which makes them seem even better in comparison.

 

Melee weapons are in the same boat. You either use Fragor/Dual Ethers/Fang because of armor ignore, or you grab a charge spam weapon... again because of armor ignore.

 

Powers are in the same boat, with non-armor ignoring powers being laughably weak on anything armored beyond level 25.

 

 

Enemies scale +5% Health/+1% Armor per level. Swap the armor with another 1-2% health, and then tweak the numbers on previously armor-ignoring weapons/powers until it all feels good and the problem is fixed.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Synxxx

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

It's kind of a "far out" idea since all of the armor piercing mods would be moot as well. Synxxx, you're right that something should be adjusted, but removing armor from the game is a bit much.

Edited June 5, 2013 by sushidubya

[SolluxCaptorTA]

...

Do you have any idea how the armor system works in this game? It's flat percentages from level 1 to level 500. Tier 3 Void run foes have the exact same armor as people on Tolstoj, they just have more health.

[DeadlyNerd]

Armor isn't the culprit here. DE should just add more perks to non armor ignoring weapons, such as crit rate, tighter spread, stun chance, passive elemental damage.

 

Armor is actually a very fine addition to the game and in fact makes the weapons that ignore it desirable legitimately.

Other weapons should be made desirable in other aspects rather than armor piercing weapons brought down to their level.

Edited June 5, 2013 by DeadlyNerd

[Korevas]

...

Do you have any idea how the armor system works in this game? It's flat percentages from level 1 to level 500. Tier 3 Void run foes have the exact same armor as people on Tolstoj, they just have more health.

 

This. Armor ignore is not nearly as big as many make it sound, there is no armor scaling and headshot/vulnerable parts usually don't have any armor at all.

[NotaCobra]

...

Do you have any idea how the armor system works in this game? It's flat percentages from level 1 to level 500. Tier 3 Void run foes have the exact same armor as people on Tolstoj, they just have more health.

 

what's more, he pulled out the number '1% armor per level"

This means that level 250 enemies have 250% more armour than level 1 enemies...

 

Anyone who knows how the armor formula is calculated will know that even this much of an armor increase isn't much given how low base armor is for all but the heavily armored grineer.

And those would reach armor so high with that formula that they would literally be taking 1 damage from all sources.

[Synxxx]

This. Armor ignore is not nearly as big as many make it sound, there is no armor scaling and headshot/vulnerable parts usually don't have any armor at all.

L

Unmodded Latron, level 28 Grineer Lancer: 7 damage per shot to the chest

 

Unmodded Latron, Level 1 Grineer Lancer : 13 damage per shot to the chest

 

My exact numbers on the % scaling are probably wrong, who the F*** knows; but claiming that there isn't any armor scaling when it is EASILY tested and verified is beyond bullS#&$.

 

 

Boltor

[mmSNAKE]

Enemies do not have the same resistances with each level. Their element resistances and armor most definitely have different values with level. How else would you justify fully modded grakata doing 1 damage per tick on lv 100 ancient as opposed to doing full damage to lv 10 ancient.

[Carcharias]

My biggest problem is with the generalizations.

1) "Why is *everyone* using Despair/Kunai?" My favorite sidearm by time is the Lex. True I have crafted the Kunai, but I haven't got around to trying them yet, and although I have had the Akbolto for some time I personally still prefer the Lex for the shear dropping power.

2) "Melee weapons are in the same boat. You either use Fragor/Dual Ethers/Fang because of armor ignore, or you grab a charge spam weapon... again because of armor ignore." My favorite melee by time is the Gram by far, and the charge is way to slow to spam it, especially against infested. I use normal swing. My melee is my primary for infested and as such I look for a multi hitting weapon way before I consider armor ignore. I tried duel ethers, Fragor, and Scido and all of these weapons are more likely to be interrupted by the infested mob as compared to the Gram in my observations. I prefer something quick enough to minimize the stuns, hitting multi targets, and drop infested in two swings or less.

3) "Powers are in the same boat, with non-armor ignoring powers being laughably weak on anything armored beyond level 25." I chose my frame for what sounds like fun. I have three frames and did not consider which abilities ignored armor or not when making my decision. The four abilities on one of my frames does not even directly damage the enemy at all. (Loki)

Bottom line, I suggest you do not presume to speak for " *everyone* ". In addition the amount of damage increase you get from mods should be able to overcome any armor problems you might be seeing at high end. I have personally been to enough T3 void missions to farm up the Lato Prime and have successfully made it through without using any of the weapons you have mentioned. I conclude sir that your point about armor ignore is relatively mute in actual practice.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Carcharias

[Cleesus]

Armor and hp does seem to scale with level.

[SolluxCaptorTA]

Provide screenshots, not anecdotal evidence. If you can provide this, then armor does have some form of scaling, and might need to be addressed.

However, with Dual Vipers still being able to absolutely shred anything in a few seconds (including your ammo stocks), you can definitely use non armor ignore weapons.

[Excitonex]

The only thing that needs to happen to make abilities and non-AI/AP weapons viable is to add mods that ignore some portion of armor. This way Banshee can choose to be more effective against Grineer by taking a mod that allows her abilities to ignore say 50% of her target's armor.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Excitonex

[Synxxx]

The only thing that needs to happen to make abilities and non-AI/AP weapons viable is to add mods that ignore some portion of armor. This way Banshee can choose to be more effective against Grineer by taking a mod that allows her abilities to ignore say 50% of her target's armor.

 

 

That could work as well, but that's an awful lot of extra balancing instead of just removing armor and tweaking the numbers on everything a little until it feels 'right'.

 

Provide screenshots, not anecdotal evidence. If you can provide this, then armor does have some form of scaling, and might need to be addressed.

However, with Dual Vipers still being able to absolutely shred anything in a few seconds (including your ammo stocks), you can definitely use non armor ignore weapons.

 

 

If you want to see first hand that armor scales, go run the same type of test I did. X weapon vs Y level armored enemy and then X level enemy of the same type. In the time it took you to write out that post you could have tried it yourself.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Armor is an elemental resistance just like anything else in the game.

 

Armor - Default Damage

Piercing Resistance - Armor Piercing

Poison Resistance - Poison

Laser Resistance - Laser

Freeze Resistance - Freeze

Electricity Resistance - Electricity

Fire Resistance - Fire

Explosive Resistance - Explosive

 

Armor piercing mods do wondrous things on weapons.  Also, damage reductions by element are calculated by 1/(1+resistance).  AP damage just shines because enemies generally have much lower Piercing Resistance than Armor and because Piercing Resistance doesn't scale with level where armor does.  Making it scale with level would be perfectly reasonable and appropriate, though obviously it should scale slower.

[Excitonex]

That could work as well, but that's an awful lot of extra balancing instead of just removing armor and tweaking the numbers on everything a little until it feels 'right'.

 

 

 

If you want to see first hand that armor scales, go run the same type of test I did. X weapon vs Y level armored enemy and then X level enemy of the same type. In the time it took you to write out that post you could have tried it yourself.

Adding a mod is a lot less re-balancing than removing an entire mechanic. Armor is an important stat because it allows for easy scaling of DR, something that every RPG should have. That said, armor is too important in Warframe. As you can see by armor ignoring or piercing weapons and abilities being the ones most sought after.

[Story4]

Enemy armor DOES scale the higher level they are. How do you guys not know this? Just use a weapon on any level 1 grineer and on a level 30 grineer, hit the body and then the head, you will get lower values the bigger the level.

 

IMO, they don't need to remove the armor, what they need to do is to remove the bonus damage that bolt-type weapons do on headshots. You want to use bolt-type weapons, you don't need to be acurate, just hit them anywhere, you want to use regular weapons, your shots get dimished by armor, but on HS you deal more damage so you need to be more accurate.

[TwiceDead]

Actually... I agree with the OP. 

[Detectivetoast]

Adding a mod is a lot less re-balancing than removing an entire mechanic. Armor is an important stat because it allows for easy scaling of DR, something that every RPG should have. That said, armor is too important in Warframe. As you can see by armor ignoring or piercing weapons and abilities being the ones most sought after.

One slight, gigantic problem: The mod pool is oversaturated as it is. Adding more mods, especially ones that are really important is just going to make the grind worse.

The difference between things that ignore armor and things that don't, especially on high level enemies is ridiculous. There is absolutely no balance there when I use kunai/despair compared to when I use the braton. This does not mean that the former should be nerfed, it means the latter should be buffed, the difference armor makes at high levels just makes normal weapons much worse for dealing any amount of damage.

 

And it's even worse with powers. Powers that ignore armor stay usable from level 1 to level 100, but powers that don't lose almost all effectiveness once you get past level 40 enemies.

For Example: Ash's shuriken is still useful in Tier III void, it can still kill enemies.

Banshee's Sound Quake does not kill enemies in Tier III void, hell it doesn't even do very much damage to them.

 

That is also made worse due to the fact that powers don't scale at all, so they become less and less effective against enemies as they get higher level.

I honestly think that the entire enemy level system needs reworking, they scale hard while the players don't.

[Excitonex]

One slight, gigantic problem: The mod pool is oversaturated as it is. Adding more mods, especially ones that are really important is just going to make the grind worse.

The difference between things that ignore armor and things that don't, especially on high level enemies is ridiculous. There is absolutely no balance there when I use kunai/despair compared to when I use the braton. This does not mean that the former should be nerfed, it means the latter should be buffed, the difference armor makes at high levels just makes normal weapons much worse for dealing any amount of damage.

 

And it's even worse with powers. Powers that ignore armor stay usable from level 1 to level 100, but powers that don't lose almost all effectiveness once you get past level 40 enemies.

For Example: Ash's shuriken is still useful in Tier III void, it can still kill enemies.

Banshee's Sound Quake does not kill enemies in Tier III void, hell it doesn't even do very much damage to them.

 

That is also made worse due to the fact that powers don't scale at all, so they become less and less effective against enemies as they get higher level.

I honestly think that the entire enemy level system needs reworking, they scale hard while the players don't.

I think there are not enough mods. I want them to take the ones they currently have and create one for each rarity rank. Mod saturation can be solved by cleaning up and seperating the drop tables. That is not the point of this thread though. Removing armor would be like removing shields and saying we can just balance everyone's health to make up for the difference. It's a fundamental part of the game. If you want to alter it it's easiest to do so through mods.

[Wojek]

My biggest problem is with the generalizations.

 

1) "Why is *everyone* using Despair/Kunai?"    My favorite sidearm by time is the Lex. True I have crafted the Kunai, but I haven't got around to trying them yet, and although I have had the Akbolto for some time I personally still prefer the Lex for the shear dropping power.

 

2) "Melee weapons are in the same boat. You either use Fragor/Dual Ethers/Fang because of armor ignore, or you grab a charge spam weapon... again because of armor ignore."    My favorite melee by time is the Gram by far, and the charge is way to slow to spam it, especially against infested. I use normal swing. My melee is my primary for infested and as such I look for a multi hitting weapon way before I consider armor ignore. I tried duel ethers, Fragor, and Scido and all of these weapons are more likely to be interrupted by the infested mob as compared to the Gram in my observations. I prefer something quick enough to minimize the stuns, hitting multi targets, and drop infested in two swings or less.

 

3) "Powers are in the same boat, with non-armor ignoring powers being laughably weak on anything armored beyond level 25."    I chose my frame for what sounds like fun. I have three frames and did not consider which abilities ignored armor or not when making my decision. The four abilities on one of my frames does not even directly damage the enemy at all. (Loki)

 

Bottom line, I suggest you do not presume to speak for " *everyone* ". In addition he amount of damage increase you get from mods should be able to overcome any armor problems you might be seeing at high end. I have personally been to enough T3 void missions to farm up the Lato Prime and have successfully made it through without using any of the weapons you have mentioned. I conclude sir that your point about armor ignore is relatively mute in actual practice.

 

 

Provide screenshots, not anecdotal evidence. If you can provide this, then armor does have some form of scaling, and might need to be addressed.

However, with Dual Vipers still being able to absolutely shred anything in a few seconds (including your ammo stocks), you can definitely use non armor ignore weapons.

 

 

So I gues you two guys don't use the Armor piercing mods on your guns/weapons?

 

Personally, I wouldn't ever roll out without one of them on my guns (well unless they're so low level it just won't fit). Armor pen from mods allows me to do full damage to infested ancients, headshot corpus crewman and more important targets. Now, if I get the armor piercing for free, it's better, because I don't have to mod it until I got the gun to lvl 30 - and even then, on stuff like sidearms, I'd rather have innate armor pen.

 

I think this is what the OP has a problem with: AP is just universally useful - there's not a single mission where it's not worth to have it on a weapon!

[Detectivetoast]

The armor piercing mod just adds armor piercing damage, it doesn't change the fact that armor destroys the normal damage you'd do.

Say you have Gun A and Gun B. Gun A has nothing special, Gun B ignores armor.

Both guns do 100 damage a shot and have 90% armor piercing mod.

Gun A on a low level enemy would do 95 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Gun B on a low level enemy would do 100 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Gun A does 185 damage

Gun B does 190 damage

Not much of a difference, not much of a problem. However on high level enemies...

Gun A on a high level enemy might do 30 normal damage and 90 AP damage

Gun B on a high level enemy would do 100 normal damage and 90 AP damage.

Suddenly Gun A is only doing 120 damage while Gun B is still doing 190 damage.

That is not balanced in the least.

[Aggh]

L

Unmodded Latron, level 28 Grineer Lancer: 7 damage per shot to the chest

 

Unmodded Latron, Level 1 Grineer Lancer : 13 damage per shot to the chest

 

My exact numbers on the % scaling are probably wrong, who the F*** knows; but claiming that there isn't any armor scaling when it is EASILY tested and verified is beyond bullS#&$.

 

 

Boltor

Stop aiming for the chest then :|

 

 

2) "Melee weapons are in the same boat. You either use Fragor/Dual Ethers/Fang because of armor ignore, or you grab a charge spam weapon... again because of armor ignore."    My favorite melee by time is the Gram by far, and the charge is way to slow to spam it, especially against infested. I use normal swing. My melee is my primary for infested and as such I look for a multi hitting weapon way before I consider armor ignore. I tried duel ethers, Fragor, and Scido and all of these weapons are more likely to be interrupted by the infested mob as compared to the Gram in my observations. I prefer something quick enough to minimize the stuns, hitting multi targets, and drop infested in two swings or less.

 

 

Nope.jpg

 

Max reflex coil drops the charge time down to almost nothing.  If you think that, you're just not releasing your melee button soon enough since if you keep it held down it will still do the stock melee charge speed.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Aggh

[mmSNAKE]

Stop aiming for the chest then :|

 

The entire point of that post was to demonstrate that armor values scale with level. Him aiming at the chest proves that. I don't see how that makes it any less relevant. Also other damage elements scale on weak points as well. Medium Grineer will gain more resistance from normal damage on head shots as their levels go up...so I have no idea what that comment was supposed to accomplish.

[CosyPigeon]

Why is *everyone* using Despair/Kunai? Because we finally got an Akbolto that doesn't require you to break your fingers/wrist and damage your mouse to get the most out of it. Being automatic they also aren't affected by the semi-auto fire rate being tied to FPS obviously, which makes them seem even better in comparison.

 

 

Dunno about everyone else, but I use Despair because I like badass ninja weapons, not because I can't be bothered clicking a whole bunch. I use the dread, despair, and dual heat swords because they are good weapons and fit the whole ninja theme nicely. Which is why I hope they bring out more thrown/archery/crossbow type weapons in the future. 

[mmSNAKE]

I'd like a futuristic crossbow...