The Melee Dilemma And Other Conclave Related Issues.

[-FV-HoloTheWiseWolf]

So we are all aware of the current issues facing conclave with the introduction of Orthos, and Orthos Prime as well as other issues involved with the EHP nerf, like how Over Powered a lot of bullet spam weapons are. So for starters lets just for a moment discuss orthos/prime. This weapon is disgusting. If you're even in it's reach (which is HUGE) you're going to get staggered then killed in the next second. Something needs to be done about this weapon. Even though it's dear to my heart and I love my B*tch stick but, it's too powerful and needs a base damage nerf. The speed is fine as long as the very high base damage is dealt with.  Melee only users (Aside from orthos users) Are have an extremely difficult time with these bullet spam weapons. To address this one of two things needs to happen.

 

One, Buff melee weapons, somehow. I'm not sure but I've been hearing from some friends that are melee only, and they're crippled because they can't even get close to these players because they die almost instantly if they're in the line of sight.

 

Two, weapons like the prisma gorgon, or the Dera vandal. Too much damage for a super high fire rate like that. Also, they shouldn't be as accurate considering the fire rate & damage. Something needs to be done about this.

 

This is more of an annoyance and I'm not sure if anyone agrees with me here, but Latron/prime. Is it OP? I'm not sure, but it feels that way when I get massacred by it. Please feel free to discuss and tell me what you think about all this. 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Everything you said is more or less true.

 

But you need to understand that melee by design cannot compete to the fast paced action of pvp. This is why melee play consists of cheap 1 hits, constant knockdowns and animations so complex and stupid fast that you cant even hit people with perscision weapons properly. Thus you can just "buff" weapons, you need to do a lot more than that

Edited January 17, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[Shin]

Everything you said is more or less true.

 

But you need to understand that melee by design cannot compete to the fast paced action of pvp. This is why melee play consists of cheap 1 hits, constant knockdowns and animations so complex and stupid fast that you cant even hit people with perscision weapons properly. Thus you can just "buff" weapons, you need to do a lot more than that

Thats not entirely true. We could add different mods to both warframes and melee weapons to make them somehow viable and discourage people from shooting their faces. For example:

 

A bullet deflection mod: Drains from Energy, deflects all of the damage back at them. Deflection should be straight forward to where you are facing to make it balanced.

 

 

HP Restoration mod for Melee: Straight 50 hp heal per melee kills.

 

 

Im sure we could come up with unique ways to make melee balanced and viable. Right now its just a spamfest with right clicks while channeling. Orthos seems to be the main culprit.

[Nazrethim]

Melee just needs:

-More and better mods.

-More defense (I suggested somewhere else replacing the 0.1 mobility of Sword Alone for 30% damage reduction)

-Some form of fair CC (I would like a "grounding" effect preventing targets from bulletjumping and aimgliding for 3s on hit and removing Staggers and Knockdowns entirely)

-Weapon/Stance damage/speed rebalance (Daggers are hilariously weak, as well as Scythes and Sparring. Hammers one-shot people which make them good for surprise slam but are so slow that actual combos are near suicidal, buffing speed and reducing damage would help)

-Remap the keys: replace 'hold' 'pause' and 'forward' for R and 'backward' for RMB on combos.

-Improved Aerial melee: granting a soft-targeting magnetic magnetism for air-to-air combat and probably knockdown on hit would be a great deal.

-Interruptable combos, no more animation lock.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Cyandana]

Melee just needs:

-More and better mods.

-More defense (I suggested somewhere else replacing the 0.1 mobility of Sword Alone for 30% damage reduction)

-Some form of fair CC (I would like a "grounding" effect preventing targets from bulletjumping and aimgliding for 3s on hit and removing Staggers and Knockdowns entirely)

-Weapon/Stance damage/speed rebalance (Daggers are hilariously weak, as well as Scythes and Sparring. Hammers one-shot people which make them good for surprise slam but are so slow that actual combos are near suicidal, buffing speed and reducing damage would help)

-Remap the keys: replace 'hold' 'pause' and 'forward' for R and 'backward' for RMB on combos.

-Improved Aerial melee: granting a soft-targeting magnetic magnetism for air-to-air combat and probably knockdown on hit would be a great deal.

-Interruptable combos, no more animation lock.

 

I'd like these changes in PvE & PvP tbh. Idk about the grounding debuff, but SOME solution is definitely necessary.

 

I suspect we will recieve small bandages of hope until Melee 3.0 though. No reason to re-vamp a broken system when an entirely new one is potentially on the way yeah? Or I hope it is :| 

[Nazrethim]

I'd like these changes in PvE & PvP tbh. Idk about the grounding debuff, but SOME solution is definitely necessary.

 

I suspect we will recieve small bandages of hope until Melee 3.0 though. No reason to re-vamp a broken system when an entirely new one is potentially on the way yeah? Or I hope it is :| 

 I don't know why no one agrees on me with the grounding effect, even though I've explained in detail, to put it simple:

-Player 1 (with melee equiped) hits Player 2

-P2 can't use Bulletjump and/or Aimglide for 3s, but can use dodge and pretty much every other maneuver to escape or evade more melee attacks until he can bulletjump to safety.

 

Also, removing staggers from Conclave and limiting Knockdowns to certain combos with blast procs and maybe a grenade launcher projectile colliding-exploding in your body (thus grenade launcher users will be encouraged to actually accurately aim their weapons instead of firing in the general direction they see the enemy).

 

The result:

-Melee players will not be frustrated starting a combo and seeing their target bulletjump while taking hits then aimgliding and gunning the melee from the safety of the sky.

-Ranged players will need to use actual tactical thinking and more movement to avoid being hit and grounded and/or learn to evade for 3s to disengage via bulletjump. You know, using ranged weapons at range

-No one lose control over their character while grounded unlike being staggered or knocked down, therefore less frustration.

 

Everybody wins!

Edited January 17, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Mrniko95]

Orthos prime channeling can kill you with a single hit  ( more than 90hp physical damage ) , , while weapons like War , dual ichors  , hate , reaper prime needs more than 5 hits to kill ( even with channeling ) , also orthos prime has a very high range ( looks like it has a primed reach mod included) while other swords you must be pretty near to get a hit , now everyone is using a channeling orthos , i'm sorry for us , the real melee players. 

[Nazrethim]

Orthos prime channeling can kill you with a single hit  ( more than 90hp physical damage ) , , while weapons like War , dual ichors  , hate , reaper prime needs more than 5 hits to kill ( even with channeling ) , also orthos prime has a very high range ( looks like it has a primed reach mod included) while other swords you must be pretty near to get a hit , now everyone is using a channeling orthos , i'm sorry for us , the real melee players. 

Yup, Orthos Prime damage should be toned down, right now it's just E-spam madness with little to no skill or tactical thinking, just equip and mow.

[Nighttide77]

Yup, Orthos Prime damage should be toned down, right now it's just E-spam madness with little to no skill or tactical thinking, just equip and mow.

Players who just spam their attack leave themselves wide open without any blocking potential, though.

[Nazrethim]

Players who just spam their attack leave themselves wide open without any blocking potential, though.

Why blocking when you can shred anyone in 1s or less?

[Nighttide77]

Why blocking when you can shred anyone in 1s or less?

Cuz people kite, and with proper awareness, won't let a polearm user even get the chance to ambush them. A good gunner will also make themselves a hard target for other gunners, which means being that much more of a hard target for melee.

As well, unchanneled polearms still have plenty of room for escape. Channeled melee should seem almost OP, imo, because a player is using energy that could be used for other potentially greater effects.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Nighttide77

[Nazrethim]

Cuz people kite, and with proper awareness, won't let a polearm user even get the chance to ambush them. A good gunner will also make themselves a hard target for other gunners, which means being that much more of a hard target for melee.

As well, unchanneled polearms still have plenty of room for escape. Channeled melee should seem almost OP, imo, because a player is using energy that could be used for other potentially greater effects.

"gunners".