Some Excal Feedback

[ClinkzEastwood]

Are you trying to imply you won't steamroll Diablo 2, PoE and Torchlight if you have access to end-game gear? Because this is what you are trying to imply right now.

You do.

What you don't is pressing 1 single button and wait for the game to play itself for you.

In other Diablo-like games, you need to put a lot, I mean A LOT, of efford just to be alive. You have to take care of your buffs, positioning, potions, enemy types and such, and that's just to stay alive; to deal damage, you have to pay even more attentions. There is no invunerablity, no 955 damage reduction, no map-wide CC, hell, an AoE CC with more than 5 seconds of duration will be considered to be extremely broken.

So no, this game is nowhere near the level of any decent Diablo-like games. Don't ever make any comparision like that.

[Epsik-kun]

You do.

What you don't is pressing 1 single button and wait for the game to play itself for you.

In other Diablo-like games, you need to put a lot, I mean A LOT, of efford just to be alive. You have to take care of your buffs, positioning, potions, enemy types and such, and that's just to stay alive; to deal damage, you have to pay even more attentions. There is no invunerablity, no 955 damage reduction, no map-wide CC, hell, an AoE CC with more than 5 seconds of duration will be considered to be extremely broken.

So no, this game is nowhere near the level of any decent Diablo-like games. Don't ever make any comparision like that.

I don't think you've played these games enough, if you think so. This includes Warframe. Complete end-game Diablo 2 character steamrolls through 100% of the game content with player's eyes closed. Complete end-game PoE character can be killed only by one-shots (which isn't the greatest mechanics tbh), otherwise they can steamroll the game with one button held down. Diablo 2's mod Median XL, while great in terms of end-game content and challenge, has builds that can literally walk through the regular game. 

If you have to "put a lot of effort just to stay alive" with a twink character during regular game content, I have bad news for you.

Also, I can widen the criteria and tell you, that even in roguelikes all this is easily achievable.

 

And on the other hand, while there are some cases when some frame can trivialise something, all this stuff isn't actually hurts anyone. Mirage can trivialise Interception, yes. But only Interception with actual rewards is T4I, its reward pool is limited, keys are pretty common, and C tier reward will require you to stay there for about 15 minutes anyway. Having Mirage enabling you to stay there for a hour doesn't break anything.

Valkyr trivialises Survival. Yet, anyone can do 20 minutes, Tower Survival keys are common.

Frost trivialises Defence. 20 waves until the reward, keys are common.

 

There's no point in whining about 4-forma Excalibur or Ember steamrolling through Mercury. It's like crying that lvl 99 Paladin can walk through Normal without hitting an attack button.

[ClinkzEastwood]

 

I don't think you've played these games enough, if you think so. This includes Warframe. Complete end-game Diablo 2 character steamrolls through 100% of the game content with player's eyes closed. Complete end-game PoE character can be killed only by one-shots (which isn't the greatest mechanics tbh), otherwise they can steamroll the game with one button held down. Diablo 2's mod Median XL, while great in terms of end-game content and challenge, has builds that can literally walk through the regular game. 

If you have to "put a lot of effort just to stay alive" with a twink character during regular game content, I have bad news for you.

Also, I can widen the criteria and tell you, that even in roguelikes all this is easily achievable.

 

And on the other hand, while there are some cases when some frame can trivialise something, all this stuff isn't actually hurts anyone. Mirage can trivialise Interception, yes. But only Interception with actual rewards is T4I, its reward pool is limited, keys are pretty common, and C tier reward will require you to stay there for about 15 minutes anyway. Having Mirage enabling you to stay there for a hour doesn't break anything.

Valkyr trivialises Survival. Yet, anyone can do 20 minutes, Tower Survival keys are common.

Frost trivialises Defence. 20 waves until the reward, keys are common.

 

There's no point in whining about 4-forma Excalibur or Ember steamrolling through Mercury. It's like crying that lvl 99 Paladin can walk through Normal without hitting an attack button.

 

I'm not talking about regular content. I'm talking what's supposed to be end game contents like sortie, raids and T4s. Even in those modes, you still win game with one button. There is no challenge in this game, the closest to the challenge are puzzles, which are pretty much 1 times thing and when you figure out how to do it you'll be able to do it with ease. That's terrible game design. If Hammerdin can walk through the entire game in normal, then this game is always on easy mode.

And while cheese exists in other games, they are few and far between, and often be looked down by other players. There are like 3-4 cheese build in Diablo 2, in this game there are few dozens.

Also T4I isn't the only thing. Sortie Interception is cheesed too.

Edited January 25, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Epsik-kun]

I'm not talking about regular content. I'm talking what's supposed to be end game contents like sortie, raids and T4s. Even in those modes, you still win game with one button. There is no challenge in this game, the closest to the challenge are puzzles, which are pretty much 1 times thing and when you figure out how to do it you'll be able to do it with ease. That's terrible game design. If Hammerdin can walk through the entire game in normal, then this game is always on easy mode.

And while cheese exists in other games, they are few and far between, and often be looked down by other players. There are like 3-4 cheese build in Diablo 2, in this game there are few dozens.

Also T4I isn't the only thing. Sortie Interception is cheesed too.

Reason being Warframe doesn't have this excessive endgame content as, say, PoE. And it can't have it to the same extent as of now, to be honest. Warframe uses far less artificial game-lengthening tools, far less farm-oriented and has much easier achievable endgame. You can't really "fix" this, without turning the game into just another grind-fest. Because, trust me, Warframe is nowhere close to Diablo in terms of grinding required.

So, ultimately - you have the problem, that any Diablo-like will face at some point eventually. But due to the way Warframe works, you face this problem earlier.

Also, Sorties are relatively challenging. They are open to all players, so you can't really ask them to be oriented only on over-formaed meta-squads. Raids are less about actual gear-check and more about communication. They are great at that.

OK, she breaks whopping two missions, both you can complete in the same exact time without her. Remove Mirage yesterday. Hope is lost.

[ClinkzEastwood]

 

Reason being Warframe doesn't have this excessive endgame content as, say, PoE. And it can't have it to the same extent as of now, to be honest. Warframe uses far less artificial game-lengthening tools, far less farm-oriented and has much easier achievable endgame. You can't really "fix" this, without turning the game into just another grind-fest. Because, trust me, Warframe is nowhere close to Diablo in terms of grinding required.

So, ultimately - you have the problem, that any Diablo-like will face at some point eventually. But due to the way Warframe works, you face this problem earlier.

Also, Sorties are relatively challenging. They are open to all players, so you can't really ask them to be oriented only on over-formaed meta-squads. Raids are less about actual gear-check and more about communication. They are great at that.

OK, she breaks whopping two missions, both you can complete in the same exact time without her. Remove Mirage yesterday. Hope is lost.

 

I do sortie everyday using my unforma'd Mirage with un-forma'd Synoid simulor and always end up with top damage. Also she doesn't just brake 2 missions. She also break Mobile defense and Excavation, that's like half of the game already right?

Fact is, the majority of builds don't require any forma at all. You just even need to put aura with the same polarity as your frame for it to work. Forma is just icing on the cake. Most frames don't need forma, melees don't need forma, guns might need forma tho.

The problem in this game is the terrible skill design. You have RJ Excal where you just put in a micro and then go afk in Draco for maximum XP farm, you have EB Excal where you just sit in a corner being completely invunerable while dishing out massive amount of damage with infinite punch through, you have Blind Excal where you just make the entire room useless while quadruple. All those builds don't need forma at all, you might want to put in some, but without it Excal still perform fine in end game contents.

Edited January 25, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Thelonious]

 There are like 3-4 cheese build in Diablo 2, in this game there are few dozens.

 

It's far worse than that: In Warframe, any frame that doesn't cheese the game is considered bad.

It's not that their abilities are badly designed or weak, it's just that they're not OP enough.

 

Good example of that is the Saryn rework: the kit is great and fun to play to some extent, but other frames do the same job with much less effort. Therefore, it's a bad frame.

 

It's true that the game now requires so much grind, that frames and weapons are less and less considered for their gameplay or fun-factor, and more and more for their ability to farm and finish missions efficiently (aka quick and easy).

[ShortCat]

It's far worse than that: In Warframe, any frame that doesn't cheese the game is considered bad.

It's not that their abilities are badly designed or weak, it's just that they're not OP enough.

 

Good example of that is the Saryn rework: the kit is great and fun to play to some extent, but other frames do the same job with much less effort. Therefore, it's a bad frame.

Exactly. For some time I couldn't comprehend the hate on Oberon. Then I put 4 forma on him and played for a weak with 3 different builds. He is interesting to play and can be considered challenging in comparison to other frames. But he is so inefficient. He is not weak,as he has abilities, which have scaling, he is just weaker than the other cheese in game.