Waiting For The Rng Kills The Game For Me

[kaizoku222]

To the people saying "just wait for the update" are missing the point of feedback entirely. We aren't here to talk about some future iteration of the game, we aren't here to assume DE knows exactly what they're doing and that everything will be fixed "eventually", we're here to tell them, as individuals, what we think they need to work on based on the current iteration of the game. So saying "just wait" is not helpful to the OP or DE.

 

Saying "it's F2P that's how they all are" is not accurate either. There are plenty of F2P's that don't lean on the incredibly lazy "pay 2 not grind" train so many are relying on for money nowadays. It's not the popular model right now, but other models are out there and they work without crippling game design. 

 

There are also several things that people have been complaining about for several updates with zero action from DE that would alleviate this feeling of entirely random progress, like not making the loot pool one massive irrelevant mess for entirely no reason and instead scaling it off level, tying it to enemy type, and narrowing drop fields. Complacency kills F2P games really fast, both from the devs and from the player base, if DE is allowed to just lean on such a lazy F2P model, then that's what they'll do, and that's all that warframe will be.

[Excitonex]

It's not. I think that's the entire point. Have you ever heard of a game where if you're playing it one of the main ways to get stronger in said game is to in fact not play at all? You just wait?

 

In warframe, if you can't afford to spend money, the most efficient way to get stronger is to not play at all. Makes all kinds of sense if you ask me.

 

That's essentially what you're saying and is the most backwards logic I've ever heard.

Please, if your serration and hornet strike aren't maxed there's still plenty for you to do while you wait. It'll take you much longer to max those mods than it will to find a few potato alerts.

[f3llyn]

Please, if your serration and hornet strike aren't maxed there's still plenty for you to do while you wait. It'll take you much longer to max those mods than it will to find a few potato alerts.

 

Wrong and wrong. Besides the fact that without forma and a catalyst a level 15 mod like serration is likely doing you more harm than good.

Edited June 6, 2013 by f3llyn

[kaizoku222]

Please, if your serration and hornet strike aren't maxed there's still plenty for you to do while you wait. It'll take you much longer to max those mods than it will to find a few potato alerts.

 

And that's so engaging and interesting to do, also consistent!

 

Except not at all and entirely RNG. In any good game with RPG elements I've ever played, in order to farm "the good stuff", you needed to have accumulated decent gear, learned how to play your character pretty well, learn where the thing you want drops and off of what kind of enemy in what conditions, and learn how to defeat that enemy preferrably by yourself.

 

In warframe? Slaughter literally anything of any level any where for a tiny % chance to get 1/1024 of what you want. Sounds riveting for "end-game".

[Excitonex]

And that's so engaging and interesting to do, also consistent!

 

Except not at all and entirely RNG. In any good game with RPG elements I've ever played, in order to farm "the good stuff", you needed to have accumulated decent gear, learned how to play your character pretty well, learn where the thing you want drops and off of what kind of enemy in what conditions, and learn how to defeat that enemy preferrably by yourself.

 

In warframe? Slaughter literally anything of any level any where for a tiny % chance to get 1/1024 of what you want. Sounds riveting for "end-game".

Are we back on this? Because I thought we had already discussed the two new bosses coming out that are supposed to represent more endgame content? It's not like endgame stuff can just pop up over night. They say they'll work on it, 4-6 weeks later it will be ready for consumption. Stomping your feet and complaining that you want it now is only going to end in half-finished content being released.

[f3llyn]

Are we back on this? Because I thought we had already discussed the two new bosses coming out that are supposed to represent more endgame content? It's not like endgame stuff can just pop up over night. They say they'll work on it, 4-6 weeks later it will be ready for consumption. Stomping your feet and complaining that you want it now is only going to end in half-finished content being released.

 

Where did they ever say they're making entire new bosses? I'm pretty sure they said they are redesigning old ones. And again, why should we have to plan around what might or might not happen in the future? How is that helpful to anyone right now?

 

If something better can be made, and in this case, it can without a doubt. Why the hell would anyone argue for it to stay the same? The attitude makes absolutely no sense to me.

Edited June 6, 2013 by f3llyn

[kaizoku222]

Are we back on this? Because I thought we had already discussed the two new bosses coming out that are supposed to represent more endgame content? It's not like endgame stuff can just pop up over night. They say they'll work on it, 4-6 weeks later it will be ready for consumption. Stomping your feet and complaining that you want it now is only going to end in half-finished content being released.

 

This has been addressed. There's no reason to believe anything DE will release will actually fix anything, and considering the ultimate goal of this game is not to beat the hardest content, but to get all the "stuff" you want, adding bosses won't affect what players do at the high end unless a lot of "stuff" drops off those new bosses.

[Excitonex]

Where did they ever say they're making entire new bosses? I'm pretty sure they said they are redesigning old ones. And again, why should we have to plan around what might or might not happen in the future? How is that helpful to anyone now.

Oh lets see here, Livestream #6, #7, News & Announcements Forum, several DE posts, several Q&A's with a variety of gaming websites. If you don't plan for the future then this game is going to be a piece of garbage. If you want everything now go buy a $60 AAA title and cheat. I want a game that has stuff to work towards that will hold my attention for a few years. This requires planning for the future and, sometimes, even waiting for the dev's to act on their plans.

[Excitonex]

This has been addressed. There's no reason to believe anything DE will release will actually fix anything, and considering the ultimate goal of this game is not to beat the hardest content, but to get all the "stuff" you want, adding bosses won't affect what players do at the high end unless a lot of "stuff" drops off those new bosses.

If the heart of your argument is that DE doesn't listen to the community I have to wonder if you've followed this game's development at all.

[f3llyn]

Oh lets see here, Livestream #6, #7, News & Announcements Forum, several DE posts, several Q&A's with a variety of gaming websites. If you don't plan for the future then this game is going to be a piece of garbage. If you want everything now go buy a $60 AAA title and cheat. I want a game that has stuff to work towards that will hold my attention for a few years. This requires planning for the future and, sometimes, even waiting for the dev's to act on their plans.

 

Deliberately missing the point. As Kaizoku said, if the things I want in this game do not drop from these new bosses you're talking about, how exactly is that helpful to me?

 

If you're still having trouble with it. No one is asking for instant gratification we're just asking for the ability to work towards the things we want without having to rely on extreme rng.

Edited June 6, 2013 by f3llyn

[kaizoku222]

If the heart of your argument is that DE doesn't listen to the community I have to wonder if you've followed this game's development at all.

 

They haven't listened to a lot of things, one of which being a concept central to this argument that you completely ignored when it was brought up, which is loot scaling and narrowing loot tables. They do listen to some things, but some things, like loot scaling, have been a problem since pre update 6 and haven't been touched.

[Excitonex]

They haven't listened to a lot of things, one of which being a concept central to this argument that you completely ignored when it was brought up, which is loot scaling and narrowing loot tables. They do listen to some things, but some things, like loot scaling, have been a problem since pre update 6 and haven't been touched.

I'm pretty sure every time they've said "Hey, we understand this is a problem and we're working on it." that shortly after they've released a patch to fix the problems they recognized. Is this untrue?

[kaizoku222]

In regards to loot scaling, yes, that's untrue entirely. Same goes for other issues like alerts keeping large chunks of progression locked, plat price balancing, resource sinks, and farming being so heavy an element. They've barely responded to all of those if at all, and talk of those issues has been around for at least the past 4-5 updates.

[gell]

DE said they're looking at all this, and more. Even as someone who tends to pay for whatever I want in a game, I see what the OP is coming from. It's not about getting everything right away, it's not about hand outs or not making money for DE. It's only about giving the player something to manually strive for, and that's a good thing for a game with plenty of things to offer.

 

Games should always have a way to make you want to play, to spend the currency, anything that makes you do anything is good. Anything that makes you put forth effort is good. Passively hoping for an alert is not doing something; it's passive. It being "fair" for all players, or even ground, is beside the point. Even if you make it outrageous and make players grind for 1000 hours for one thing, it at least gives them a reachable goal. It's not like this problem is unique to Warframe, nor has it not been done better before. Even DE has admitted the alert system isn't want it is supposed to be in the end. The feedback they are getting is good, and can help them change the game (we're in a beta, which is really an alpha that has some polished stuff in it, with all of us as guinea pigs).

 

Don't forget that a goal is not a plan of action. You can have a goal to get Vauban, but if you have to rely on a random system that is based on TIME, then there's no planning that can help you. If you know that a specific boss/planet drops Vauban parts, that would allow you to plan to go to those places and try to obtain his parts based on not time, but on effort. If you make a player's goals effort-driven, you've given them reasons to play the game, and that in turn is good for your game.

 

Things to note:

I don't actually advocate grinding 1000 hours for one thing, but I think it was a fitting example of how even that is better than no effort-based goal. I think DE has some talent, but they're experimenting with the mindset that they shouldn't copy other games or their models, simply because one game's model may not work for WF. At the same time, this can bite them in the butt, and they sometimes forget simple things like effort-driven goals. It's one of those design 101 things that can easily get overlooked when trying to experiment with new systems.

[Excitonex]

In regards to loot scaling, yes, that's untrue entirely. Same goes for other issues like alerts keeping large chunks of progression locked, plat price balancing, resource sinks, and farming being so heavy an element. They've barely responded to all of those if at all, and talk of those issues has been around for at least the past 4-5 updates.

Wasn't it just prior to U8 that some form of loot scaling was added? I don't understand how alerts keep you from experiencing any of the game's content. I need you to elaborate more on resource sinks, you want more? less? Farming is a heavy element right now because the AI and many mechanics are only in prototype stage essentially. Every tile set and enemy that is introduced has contained more complicated elements than the last. These are all small steps to creating enemies that are actually challenging. This type of code doesn't just write itself overnight. It requires adding small bits at a time and then using a bunch in combination to create a challenge.

[YummyBubbles]

Wait for the events after livestreams almost every week. They often put up 12-24 hours to get rare drops

[Keetsune]

mods are your biggest source of progress. and generally takes longer than getting potatoes. go farm for those.

even without them there is plenty to do and the game is in and of itself fun to play.

if you cant enjoy the game for what it is then maybe its just not your thing.

I lvled all mods at max lvl already except for 10 lvl cap mods they are at 7+ lvl atm. And i saw potato only once on alert.

[Excitonex]

I lvled all mods at max lvl already except for 10 lvl cap mods they are at 7+ lvl atm. And i saw potato only once on alert.

I haven't done the math exactly but I'm pretty sure going from rank 9-10 is about 1/4-/13 of the total fusion material you need to max a mod.

[shinydunsparce]

 

of course there is if i am looking for some mod then i farm the faction that has the highest drop chance 

 

Certain factions may have a higher chance, but farming anything over and over isn't going to better you chances. Your chances will always be the same.

[Excitonex]

Certain factions may have a higher chance, but farming anything over and over isn't going to better you chances. Your chances will always be the same.

Technically if you go half the distance every time you'll never reach your destination either. Theory is not the same as practice. Your chances of receiving a certain mod go up as time spent farming increases.

[shinydunsparce]

If farming isn't trying then I don't know what is. If you have a problem with farming then you need to pay. It's sort of how F2P games work.

 

DE has acknowledged several times in the past couple weeks that they know farming is not everyone's idea of fun. They are working on an endgame style boss right now for, it sounds like, release during or after E3. Patience is a virtue in F2P games, even more so when it's still in beta.

If I could pay to guarantee a certain mod I would. I'm not going to spend money on something that isn't guaranteed, that's called gambling. And it's why mod packs and void keys are $&*&*#(%& to buy. This game feeds off of the 'your so close to winning' stringing players a long and only giving them the chance to get what they want with money. Also, I've never had to farm fruitlessly in TF2 or Planetside 2. PS2 requires S#&$LOADS of farming to get anything, but at least you KNOW how far away you are from getting something. I could 'farm' a rare mod forever and never be closer.

Edited June 7, 2013 by shinydunsparce

[cptnCAPSLOCK]

Certain factions may have a higher chance, but farming anything over and over isn't going to better you chances. Your chances will always be the same.

you may want to read that one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers ;)

 

if i had the motivation to play i bet that i would have my frost mod withing the next 200 mods droped that is about 10 defense missions it was like this with everything else i wanted and that mod is not even rare

 

what the most ppl dont seem to understand is that my intention was not to bash on the devs but give constructiv feedback to help the make the game more fun to play, more addictive and in the end the more fun and addictive a f2p game is the more likely it is that ppl spend money on it and the devs get more money.

 

i acctualy want to play this game, i like the movement system i want them to make the most out of it and use the potential i see in this game.

 

it is just at the moment i can not participate in endgame content even if it would exist, i can not even work towards it that is what stops me playing this game and i hope they change that to give me and i guess others more reason to play not just log in once a day to see if i can now continiue working on my build and more high level content. at the moment all i can do is wait and hope.

[Excitonex]

If I could pay to guarantee a certain mod I would. I'm not going to spend money on something that isn't guaranteed, that's called gambling. And it's why mod packs and void keys are $&*&*#(%& to buy. This game feeds off of the 'your so close to winning' stringing players a long and only giving them the chance to get what they want with money. Also, I've never had to farm fruitlessly in TF2 or Planetside 2. PS2 requires S#&$LOADS of farming to get anything, but at least you KNOW how far away you are from getting something. I could 'farm' a rare mod forever and never be closer.

With such a broad definition of gambling I amazed you ever buy anything. If you find the farming you're doing fruitless then it seems to me that you either joined a mega-clan and finished your dojo already while maxing all mods or your definition of fruitless is "I'm not getting the exact item I want". DE wants mod packs and key packs to be similar to trading cards packs. The difference being you have a chance to get more than one good card out of each pack. MTG for example only gives you a single rare with each pack bought, usually it's garbage. In Warframe you have that ever so small chance of getting all rares.

[FriedAlbacore]

They haven't listened to a lot of things, one of which being a concept central to this argument that you completely ignored when it was brought up, which is loot scaling and narrowing loot tables. They do listen to some things, but some things, like loot scaling, have been a problem since pre update 6 and haven't been touched.

Maybe DE doesn't see the current loot scaling or RNG damaged enough to keep a majority of people from playing.  True its frustrating, true its pure dumb luck sometimes.  But if the people actually writing the code, making the game and putting forth most of the effort don't see it as a major problem, what then?  And if the "something" you want is based on RNG, and you haven't gotten it after a mere week or month, maybe then it's supposed to be that rare.  Maybe not, all I know is I have no problem with the current system of getting RARE mods.  Not saying it doesn't need tweaking, not at all.  Infact maybe if the devs do see it as a problem a solution would be item specific trading, for equal value items.  Flow mod for Split Chamber.  Banshee Systems BP for Vauban Systems BP.  Idk, just a thought, since everyone else is just pointing out what they feel is wrong without putting forth solutions or compromises.

Maybe the devs are working on it, but they have more important things to worry about for the gameplay than everyone not getting what they want the way they want it.

Edited June 7, 2013 by FriedAlbacore

[Godplank]

I have to agree with Gell, you can't block player's progress behind these kinds of random events, eventually they will get frustrated waiting for that alert to pop and they'll move on because their ability to progress is out of their hands.

 

I think it's bad practice to base your business model mainly around skipping or speeding up content in a progression based because it's not a viable long term business model. What do you do after you buy your way to the top? Do you wait for the next batch of content and buy your way up again? How does it affect players who don't like to pay to progress? It's just a messy model that usually ends in people getting tired of paying to be on a treadmill. I know DE doesn't like to look at LoL, Dota 2 or TF2's models but I think it's a mistake not to, those games aren't sucessful because of sheer dumb luck, it's because on top of having solid games as the foundation of their models those companies avoid letting their business model impact their gameplay directly.