Waiting For The Rng Kills The Game For Me

[Excitonex]

I have to agree with Gell, you can't block player's progress behind these kinds of random events, eventually they will get frustrated waiting for that alert to pop and they'll move on because their ability to progress is out of their hands.

 

I think it's bad practice to base your business model mainly around skipping or speeding up content in a progression based because it's not a viable long term business model. What do you do after you buy your way to the top? Do you wait for the next batch of content and buy your way up again? How does it affect players who don't like to pay to progress? It's just a messy model that usually ends in people getting tired of paying to be on a treadmill. I know DE doesn't like to look at LoL, Dota 2 or TF2's models but I think it's a mistake not to, those games aren't sucessful because of sheer dumb luck, it's because on top of having solid games as the foundation of their models those companies avoid letting their business model impact their gameplay directly.

I haven't played DotA 2 but I know TF2 didn't start as a F2P game so looking at their model does Warframe no good. If you have a compulsion to get every mod, every frame, and every weapon then I am wondering why you would refuse to support the people who've provided all these awesome things to you?

[kgb_cyborg]

Technically if you go half the distance every time you'll never reach your destination either. Theory is not the same as practice. Your chances of receiving a certain mod go up as time spent farming increases.

This sounds a lot like the gambler's fallacy. The outcome of each drop, mission, etc is statistically independent. You can say, statistically, ahead of playing 3 missions that have a 50% chance to drop a particular item that yes, I have an 87.5% chance of getting that item. But then you play the first mission and it doesn't drop. Now your chances are 75%. Your chances, over a predetermined time period/sample size, have gone down since when you started, not up. (Obviously nothing in WF has odds that high, which makes it *more likely* that the scenario I described would occur.)

 

If you increase your time period/sample size, your initial chances seem better, but you're still rolling the dice on a series of statistically independent events. Your chances stay the same at every turn.

[shinydunsparce]

Technically if you go half the distance every time you'll never reach your destination either. Theory is not the same as practice. Your chances of receiving a certain mod go up as time spent farming increases.

What? No they don't 

 

Edit. cyborg said it.

Edited June 7, 2013 by shinydunsparce

[Excitonex]

This sounds a lot like the gambler's fallacy. The outcome of each drop, mission, etc is statistically independent. You can say, statistically, ahead of playing 3 missions that have a 50% chance to drop a particular item that yes, I have an 87.5% chance of getting that item. But then you play the first mission and it doesn't drop. Now your chances are 75%. Your chances, over a predetermined time period/sample size, have gone down since when you started, not up. (Obviously nothing in WF has odds that high, which makes it *more likely* that the scenario I described would occur.)

 

If you increase your time period/sample size, your initial chances seem better, but you're still rolling the dice on a series of statistically independent events. Your chances stay the same at every turn.

As time increases the chance that you will have a certain mod increases, this is a verifiable fact in that people who have spent more time generally have more mods. No, every run does not bring you measurably closer to getting the item you want but over a long enough timeline the chances of you not finding that mod approach 0.

[shinydunsparce]

With such a broad definition of gambling I amazed you ever buy anything. If you find the farming you're doing fruitless then it seems to me that you either joined a mega-clan and finished your dojo already while maxing all mods or your definition of fruitless is "I'm not getting the exact item I want". DE wants mod packs and key packs to be similar to trading cards packs. The difference being you have a chance to get more than one good card out of each pack. MTG for example only gives you a single rare with each pack bought, usually it's garbage. In Warframe you have that ever so small chance of getting all rares.

True, a lot of things are kind of a gamble. But void keys and mod packs are Roulette or slot machine levels of gambling, except you can never win, only break even.

[shinydunsparce]

I haven't played DotA 2 but I know TF2 didn't start as a F2P game so looking at their model does Warframe no good. If you have a compulsion to get every mod, every frame, and every weapon then I am wondering why you would refuse to support the people who've provided all these awesome things to you?

Looking at tf2 f2p is pointless huh? http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/08/how-and-why-team-fortress-2-made-valve-super-rich

[S5alad]

I lvled all mods at max lvl already except for 10 lvl cap mods they are at 7+ lvl atm. And i saw potato only once on alert.

That's because the potatoes are the strongest P2W element of the game.  Appreciate the game?  Go buy a potato.  

[Excitonex]

Looking at tf2 f2p is pointless huh? http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/08/how-and-why-team-fortress-2-made-valve-super-rich

Is Warframe paying for their development cycle by launching P2P? No, they are launching F2P and so cannot use the same model to pay for development, hence pointless.

[Godplank]

I haven't played DotA 2 but I know TF2 didn't start as a F2P game so looking at their model does Warframe no good. If you have a compulsion to get every mod, every frame, and every weapon then I am wondering why you would refuse to support the people who've provided all these awesome things to you?

 

I don't see why I should have to pay for something as basic as weapon slots or frame slots, that alone makes me not want to spend money on the game, it looks like a cheap cash grab. If DE decided to focus less on nickel and diming with slots and selling rare progression based items like potatoes, formas and void keys and more on providing a game that the feels complete whether I've spent $0 or $1000. I can safetly spend money on LoL because I know if I stop playing the game for 6 months and come back I'm not going to see Riot selling champion slots, rune slots, exclusive runes that can only be bought with real money or anything like that, I can't say the same for this game based on what I'm seeing and what I've heard from people who've been playing this game much longer than me.

[Keetsune]

I haven't done the math exactly but I'm pretty sure going from rank 9-10 is about 1/4-/13 of the total fusion material you need to max a mod.

I dont need them higher than 8 lvl i need catalysts/forma more.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Keetsune

[Keetsune]

That's because the potatoes are the strongest P2W element of the game.  Appreciate the game?  Go buy a potato.  

According to ur logic - inventory slots most strongest P2W element of this game.

 

All gamplay reletad items should be dropable.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Keetsune

[BerelHawdos]

Warframes only level to rank 30.  Once you supercharge it, it just gets double the mod points you can spend.  I don't understand this argument.  With the introduction of forma, depending on how many you have, you might not even need to supercharge a warframe.  It's frustrating for sure, that the RNG seems whacked, and the fact that reactors and catalysts only pop up in a blue moon is aggravating.  I do agree the RNG needs some touching as well as drop rates.

But I don't understand how this is a pay-to-play game.  There's no monthly charge for an account, there's no VIP/free account difference.  There's no VIP account at all.  The only things that Plat can get you that grinding can't are different color palettes, superficial enhancements to sentinels and cred/affinity boosters. Yes some things take pure dumb luck of being online at the right time or hounding twitter for alerts, I understand this.

As far as grinding goes, I've said my piece much to the dismay of others so I'll leave it alone. 

Its a pay-to-speed-things-up game for sure.  I think the best way to handle this is keep playing for a bit and see if you think it's worth a $5-10 investment. 

Yeah it's just double no big deal it's not like mods are the things that improve your dmg. It's basically saying if you pay 10$ you will be twice as strong as someone who didn't except if that someone gets really really lucky. But since in theory that someone might get lucky the game is not pay to win.

[glenmar4]

Weren't you given 50 plats as a starting point? You can purchase warframe slot then farm for bp

[S5alad]

According to ur logic - inventory slots most strongest P2W element of this game.

 

All gamplay reletad items should be dropable.

They are droppable.  Why not two days ago I got a BP from an alert.  The 4 days prior to that I got 2 forma BP drops.  I've also gotten them from leaching off a void run or two(Forma, Potatos, and BPs for both).

 

You're just expecting a group of people to spend years of their lives making a new, innovative game and then allowing every single feature to be free so you can enjoy their hard work without contributing a dime.

 

GTFO.

[f3llyn]

They are droppable.  Why not two days ago I got a BP from an alert.  The 4 days prior to that I got 2 forma BP drops.  I've also gotten them from leaching off a void run or two(Forma, Potatos, and BPs for both).

 

You're just expecting a group of people to spend years of their lives making a new, innovative game and then allowing every single feature to be free so you can enjoy their hard work without contributing a dime.

 

GTFO.

 

From where? Oh, you mean alerts. Right.

 

And also, I'm confused. I thought the forums were to give feedback. Not to talk about how everything is fine as it is now. I guess I just look at things backwards though.

Edited June 7, 2013 by f3llyn

[S5alad]

From where? Oh, you mean alerts. Right.

 

And also, I'm confused. I thought the forums were to give feedback. Not to talk about how everything is fine as it is now. I guess I just look at things backwards though.

You're right.  I'm providing feedback to your feedback, because I disagree with it.  Developers need money to develop, and you're just freeloading which would be fine, but then you have the nerve to whine about how you can't get everything for free.  GTFO.

[f3llyn]

You're right.  I'm providing feedback to your feedback, because I disagree with it.  Developers need money to develop, and you're just freeloading which would be fine, but then you have the nerve to whine about how you can't get everything for free.  GTFO.

 

Please enlighten me where exactly I whined about not getting everything for free? And freeloading? Righto.

 

Also you're not providing feedback. Quite literally you're telling people that if they don't spend money on the game their opinions and their time are worthless.

 

And none of that changes the fact that the alert system is completely broken and has been for a very a long time. It's the single most complained about feature in the game and has been for 5+ months.

Edited June 7, 2013 by f3llyn

[KhanCipher]

They are droppable.  Why not two days ago I got a BP from an alert.  The 4 days prior to that I got 2 forma BP drops.  I've also gotten them from leaching off a void run or two(Forma, Potatos, and BPs for both).

 

lol, using livestream alerts to strengthen your arguement xD

 

 

You're just expecting a group of people to spend years of their lives making a new, innovative game and then allowing every single feature to be free so you can enjoy their hard work without contributing a dime.

 

i hate to break your bubble but none of warframe's mechanics is innovative or creative... except for maybe the original concept for the game

 

 

Also you're not providing feedback. Quite literally you're telling people that if they don't spend money on the game their opinions and their time are worthless.

 

ignore him, he seems to be the "i spent lots of money on this game so i don't want to be wrong when people tell me it's a bad game" type... just like there were people defending Aliens: Colonial Marines and no matter how hard people tried to get them to see that they were wrong, they continually defended it because they had spent money on it and didn't want to be wrong.

[f3llyn]

lol, using livestream alerts to strengthen your arguement xD

 

 

 

i hate to break your bubble but none of warframe's mechanics is innovative or creative... except for maybe the original concept for the game

 

 

 

ignore him, he seems to be the "i spent lots of money on this game so i don't want to be wrong when people tell me it's a bad game" type... just like there were people defending Aliens: Colonial Marines and no matter how hard people tried to get them to see that they were wrong, they continually defended it because they had spent money on it and didn't want to be wrong.

 

I agree and disagree. Warframe is far and away from a bad game. It just has some really iffy mechanics in it that if fixed will make it a great game.

 

That other person though, needs to get off their pedestal.

Edited June 7, 2013 by f3llyn

[KhanCipher]

I agree and disagree. Warframe is far and away from a bad game. It just has some really bad mechanics in it that if fixed will make it a great game.

 

That other person though, needs to get off their pedestal.

 

warframe being far from being a bad game is the one good thing i can say about it, since the rest of it seems to make me go "what the hell were you thinking?"

[Firebat86]

People saying "The game is fun just play it and forget about it" are already too complacent about how luck based progress is in this game. Past a (very quick and easy to get to) point there is no way to work towards any worthwhile goal. You can't "try" to level your mods, you can't "try" to get a potato, you can't "try" to get a void key, and even getting most BP's the only thing you can to is anchor yourself on the right planet and hope systems doesn't take 60 runs to drop.

 

There is *NOT* plenty to do in this game if you remove the farming. There's maybe 15 hours of content, all of which is easily soloable (if you've gotten a redirection mod in the first 5 hours.... feeling lucky?). After that the only thing this game exist for is getting new gear which is entirely based on farming. There are mechanics in this game that get you to farm something, just so you can farm something, *just so you can farm something else*. It's really obvious to anyone whose been around for the development of a f2p/p2w game to know that DE is creating a game based solely around paying money to avoid farming. It really doesn't have to be like this, and warframe has so much more potential that what DE is even trying to use. It's a shame so many people are complacent with what they've done so far.

 

It's almost as if this game isn't marketed as an action TPS/dungeon crawler... You know like Diablo or Torchlight? You want to $#*(@ about RNG, then go play D3.  And yes you CAN level your mods, and you can farm void keys and BP's.  The only thing you can't actively earn are potatoes and slots.  Pre-U7 if you didn't pay, you weren't supercharging your weapons/frames.  You can now.  Free of charge.  If you don't want to wait, throw them a few bucks. 

 

I don't understand the mentality of it's a F2P game, therefore I shouldn't support the game.  If you have enough invested into this game to come log in to the forums and whine about it, then I would say it's value enough to give em 5-10 bucks. 

 

Edit:  There's a huuuuge difference in the argument about the alert system and potatoes btw.  Would put a large sum of money on if the alert system goes to some sort of token system etc that the potatoes will be EXTREMELY expensive and people will just be complaining about that then. 

Edited June 7, 2013 by Firebat86

[Excitonex]

It's almost as if this game isn't marketed as an action TPS/dungeon crawler... You know like Diablo or Torchlight? You want to $#*(@ about RNG, then go play D3.  And yes you CAN level your mods, and you can farm void keys and BP's.  The only thing you can't actively earn are potatoes and slots.  Pre-U7 if you didn't pay, you weren't supercharging your weapons/frames.  You can now.  Free of charge.  If you don't want to wait, throw them a few bucks. 

 

I don't understand the mentality of it's a F2P game, therefore I shouldn't support the game.  If you have enough invested into this game to come log in to the forums and whine about it, then I would say it's value enough to give em 5-10 bucks. 

 

Edit:  There's a huuuuge difference in the argument about the alert system and potatoes btw.  Would put a large sum of money on if the alert system goes to some sort of token system etc that the potatoes will be EXTREMELY expensive and people will just be complaining about that then. 

A very true statement. As I've said in other threads I wouldn't mind it if the tokens where items that are already in game. Like allowing someone to trade 40 rare mods to pick a single rare mod that they actually need.

 

For those complaining about RNG, your bad luck bring me good luck it seems. I love RNG loot systems. I like feeling lucky, even if I am not. You might think RNG doesn't let you earn anything but then I say to you what is the definition of earning something? Why do you feel like you're not able to earn anything because of RNG? You spend a number of hours farming and your chances of getting that mod increase as time spent farming increases. As far as I've known, you don't earn anything in any video game by doing more than spending time. You can try to argue skill comes into play, but I will argue practice makes perfect and so all you really need is time. RNG hides the amount of time you need to spend farming on average to get an item, this is why I like it.