My Post-Cooldown-Update Rushing Exploits And A Public Apology

[RyojinOrion]

First of all, the apology. I normally am not much of a rusher, but since an attempt to stop rushing was made in such a ridiculous way, I've made it a point to rush as much as I can just to prove a point. I'm sorry for any players I have frustrated by doing this, but I hope that it will help to prevent such things in the future. I can only hope that the people I have run with and potentially annoyed understand my reasoning here.

 

Now then... I've been rushing every mission since the Cooldown update was introduced. All but one run that I have done today, I was the first to extraction, with others well behind. The cooldown addition does NOTHING to stop people rushing, does NOTHING to stop down the speedy players from rushing ahead of the rest of the team. The devs have attempted to cure the symptoms instead of the disease, and have failed to do even that properly. For ideas on curing the disease instead of just the symptoms, please review my Incentives thread.

 

I have noticed something, though. Every time, there has been one or two players who were well behind the rest of the group. These have ALWAYS been Rhinos or Frosts, without exception. It has been happening more often than not, simply because the easiest way for them to catch up has been screwed with. They aren't even trying to loot everything or kill everything, as far as I have been able to tell. Half the time, they can't even get to extraction before the timer runs out. I've always tried to stop out of the extraction area to stop the timer, but the rest of the team inevitably fails to do so as well, causing the timer to keep ticking down.

 

And in anticipation of the devs attempting to stop rushing by killing the Slide-Jumpkick-Slide chain, I have done a few rushing runs without using that chain at all, with the same results as when I used it. This should be a sign to the devs that rushing will not be cured by eliminating the chain or any other movement. All it would do is hurt the people who use such thing for legitimate non-rushing reasons.

 

 

In conclusion, I have two separate messages for those who read this. Firstly, to the devs: Please cure the disease of rushing and not attempt to just cure the symptoms. Secondly, to the players: I apologize for my rushing, but as I said above, there was a specific reason for it.

 

 

 

Thanks for your time.

[Fleischkloppa]

Oh my god so much yes to this post.

[Lumireaver]

...since an attempt to stop rushing was made...

 

This was an attempt to fix a bug. An exploit. A hiccup in the way the game flows which was not in line with the intended final product.

 

DE doesn't want to penalize "rushers" or "looters," and as a matter of fact, they are exploring ways to enable players to identify themselves as such so that they can be matched appropriately. Stop thinking DE is attacking you.

[RyojinOrion]

This was an attempt to fix a bug. An exploit. A hiccup in the way the game flows which was not in line with the intended final product.

 

DE doesn't want to penalize "rushers" or "looters," and as a matter of fact, they are exploring ways to enable players to identify themselves as such so that they can be matched appropriately. Stop thinking DE is attacking you.

 

I am not thinking they are attacking me. If you would read and comprehend the first line in my original post, you'd see that I clearly stated that I am not much of a rusher. This "fix" doesn't particularly affect me personally. It does, however, very clearly affect a number of other players in a significant way.

 

And how is adding a cooldown an attempt to fix a bug? What bug was caused by there being no cooldown on sliding? The only difference between how it was before the cooldown and how it is now is nothing more than now people who chain sliding moves together being slightly slowed down. For slower frames, this effect is amplified. (No, I don't use a particularly slow frame, so before you attempt to twist this into me whining about that...) And don't you think it is a little more than a coincidence that after all this talk about one of the devs (I forget which... Was it Steve?) mentioning in a livestream that rushing and missing the content is not how they want the game played, in one of the updates very shortly after the livestream, this is introduced?

 

I've given this some thought here. I'm not just crying because an exploit was "fixed" (Which is was not, by the way. See original post for details.), I am simply giving feedback on and update and the results that I have personally seen.

 

Also, if you would kindly show me any evidence that DE is exploring ways to enable players to identify themselves in such a way, I'd appreciate it. I haven't seen any such comment from any of the devs, but then again, I haven't looked too hard for it, so I simply could have missed it. I'm not perfect, you know. :p

[Ryjeon]

There are more movement techniques. Chain them together and maneuverability is fine. I still spend most of my time in the air or sliding while scoping. Have you guys just been spamming a single motion the whole time? Are we playing the same game? I still do quick slide hops too. Every manuever is still in the game, you just have to blend them together fluidly with skill.

[RyojinOrion]

There are more movement techniques. Chain them together and maneuverability is fine. I still spend most of my time in the air or sliding while scoping. Have you guys just been spamming a single motion the whole time? Are we playing the same game? I still do quick slide hops too. Every manuever is still in the game, you just have to blend them together fluidly with skill.

 

Sort of what I was getting at here. You gotta strike at the Rusher mentality instead of what they do because of that mentality. Until you do, people will just find other ways to rush, and non-rushers will be the ones to suffer because their tools for catching up will be gone.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[Estred]

Rushing is a viable way to play. The thing is the matchaker should take note of your completion times versus the average and match you up with other rushers, that is just a thought. Currently abusing the mega-slide glitch there is 3 seconds between every "spurt" of speed from Sliding. That is fine by me as during normal play you slide most of your distance before sliding again.

 

The delay only preventing abusing the system to hyper-accelerate in my eyes. Though to any Rushers reading this, you miss out on mods, credits, crafting materials and experience when you rush. Almost an 80% reduction in all categories.

[SymphNo9]

OP, you nailed it perfectly and this is what I have been saying ever since the update. There is no reason to use Rhino or Frost now in resource farming runs, when you have Loki or Ash that are much faster to do the job. They did not fix the rushing to extraction issue at all with this hotfix, people will and still do rush to extraction regardless.

[RyojinOrion]

Rushing is a viable way to play. The thing is the matchaker should take note of your completion times versus the average and match you up with other rushers, that is just a thought. Currently abusing the mega-slide glitch there is 3 seconds between every "spurt" of speed from Sliding. That is fine by me as during normal play you slide most of your distance before sliding again.

 

The delay only preventing abusing the system to hyper-accelerate in my eyes. Though to any Rushers reading this, you miss out on mods, credits, crafting materials and experience when you rush. Almost an 80% reduction in all categories.

 

Yeah, I agree that rushing is a viable way to play, not to mention also fun... But it seems that much of the community and the devs don't want it to be, but they are going about "fixing" it the wrong way.

 

Also, the delay doesn't prevent abusing the system to hyper-accelerate at all.

 

Though to any Rushers reading this, you miss out on mods, credits, crafting materials and experience when you rush. Almost an 80% reduction in all categories.

 

They know. They don't give a damn. They might not need those particular things.

[Ryjeon]

Maybe they should implement "star power" like in Rock Band. As the Tenno rack up kills they can unleash special attacks/events that increase the chances for an extra rare mission reward. And it can be increased even more so if everyone uses it simultaneously.

 

They could also implement randomly generated mini-bosses such as you might find in diablo or other arpgs.

 

Kind of a random idea, but something does need to be done to alleviate the appeal of skipping content. And Rock Band is one of the most successful co-op games ever. The genres are very different but thinking out of the box can produce interesting results.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ryjeon

[Lumireaver]

I am not thinking they are attacking me. If you would read and comprehend the first line in my original post, you'd see that I clearly stated that I am not much of a rusher. This "fix" doesn't particularly affect me personally. It does, however, very clearly affect a number of other players in a significant way.

 

And how is adding a cooldown an attempt to fix a bug? What bug was caused by there being no cooldown on sliding? The only difference between how it was before the cooldown and how it is now is nothing more than now people who chain sliding moves together being slightly slowed down. For slower frames, this effect is amplified. (No, I don't use a particularly slow frame, so before you attempt to twist this into me whining about that...) And don't you think it is a little more than a coincidence that after all this talk about one of the devs (I forget which... Was it Steve?) mentioning in a livestream that rushing and missing the content is not how they want the game played, in one of the updates very shortly after the livestream, this is introduced?

 

I've given this some thought here. I'm not just crying because an exploit was "fixed" (Which is was not, by the way. See original post for details.), I am simply giving feedback on and update and the results that I have personally seen.

 

Also, if you would kindly show me any evidence that DE is exploring ways to enable players to identify themselves in such a way, I'd appreciate it. I haven't seen any such comment from any of the devs, but then again, I haven't looked too hard for it, so I simply could have missed it. I'm not perfect, you know. :p

 

In your original post you clearly stated that, embittered, you set out on a quest to 'stick it to the man' in retaliation against a perceived (but non-existent) attempt to thwart a certain kind of play style. (This never happened.)

 

The cooldown was likely an attempt to prevent people from squat-sprinting without crippling the slide mechanic...which is probably designed to enable us to close distance quickly, not to enable us to race around like a ninja go-karts. Naturally, certain movement exploits still exist, but hey, beta is beta. They'll be fixed or DE will get sick of the community and leave them there despite their clear attempts to streamline the animations thus far. Scott once said that he thinks speed-runs are cool when they use the mechanics they've laid out well, but when they exploit bugs and dumb AI to do things quickly, that kind of stuff is what they're looking to patch out. That's probably why Loki's decoys have been corrected, actually. 

 

Here.

 

Everyone, let's all make an effort to stop perceiving/attributing agendas/conspiracies to various parties because they don't agree with us.

[RyojinOrion]

 

a perceived (but non-existent) attempt to thwart a certain kind of play style. (This never happened.)

 

The evidence I have seen says otherwise.

 

 

 

The cooldown was likely an attempt to prevent people from squat-sprinting without crippling the slide mechanic...

 

First you say what the update was not for, then you show that you don't know for sure the reasoning behind the update. Great job invalidating yourself! But wait, it gets better!

 

 

 

The cooldown was likely an attempt to prevent people from squat-sprinting without crippling the slide mechanic...which is probably to close distance quickly, not to enable players to race around like a ninja go-karts. Naturally, certain movement exploits still exist, but hey, beta is beta. They'll be fixed or DE will get sick of the community and leave them there despite their clear attempts to streamline the animations thus far. Scott once said that he thinks speed-runs are cool when they use the mechanics they've laid out well, but when they exploit bugs and dumb AI to do things quickly, that kind of stuff is what they're looking to patch out.

 

You're implying, nay, flat out SAYING here that it WAS an attempt to stop people from rushing! Hahaha, man, did you even think about what you were posting?

 

Here.

 

Ah, so I did miss something. Thanks for sharing... But they clearly aren't taking that route, at least not yet, and there are no real signs that they ever intend on it.

 

 

 

 

[edit] Quote format fail, lulz.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[f3llyn]

First, are we certain the slide move cooldown was even to stop rushing? Have they said "we did this to stop rushers" and not to fix unintended mechanics?

 

And second, what the hell kind of logic does it take to come to the conclusion that DE knows you're rushing in protest of their change? You admit you know you're ruining games for others, yet you feel like your holy missions againts DEs changes that they have no idea is taking place is more important. That's some amazing logic.

[SpectralNomad]

First of all, the apology. I normally am not much of a rusher, but since an attempt to stop rushing was made in such a ridiculous way, I've made it a point to rush as much as I can just to prove a point. I'm sorry for any players I have frustrated by doing this, but I hope that it will help to prevent such things in the future. I can only hope that the people I have run with and potentially annoyed understand my reasoning here.

 

Now then... I've been rushing every mission since the Cooldown update was introduced. All but one run that I have done today, I was the first to extraction, with others well behind. The cooldown addition does NOTHING to stop people rushing, does NOTHING to stop down the speedy players from rushing ahead of the rest of the team. The devs have attempted to cure the symptoms instead of the disease, and have failed to do even that properly. For ideas on curing the disease instead of just the symptoms, please review my Incentives thread.

 

I have noticed something, though. Every time, there has been one or two players who were well behind the rest of the group. These have ALWAYS been Rhinos or Frosts, without exception. It has been happening more often than not, simply because the easiest way for them to catch up has been screwed with. They aren't even trying to loot everything or kill everything, as far as I have been able to tell. Half the time, they can't even get to extraction before the timer runs out. I've always tried to stop out of the extraction area to stop the timer, but the rest of the team inevitably fails to do so as well, causing the timer to keep ticking down.

 

And in anticipation of the devs attempting to stop rushing by killing the Slide-Jumpkick-Slide chain, I have done a few rushing runs without using that chain at all, with the same results as when I used it. This should be a sign to the devs that rushing will not be cured by eliminating the chain or any other movement. All it would do is hurt the people who use such thing for legitimate non-rushing reasons.

 

 

In conclusion, I have two separate messages for those who read this. Firstly, to the devs: Please cure the disease of rushing and not attempt to just cure the symptoms. Secondly, to the players: I apologize for my rushing, but as I said above, there was a specific reason for it.

 

 

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Totally agree. I'd like to say, however, that I recently got the Frost frame and I'm still quite capable of rushing past most anything I wish. I'm slower than I'd like, but the "rusher mentality" still remains. The only difference is I actually attack a few targets along the way.

 

 

Sort of what I was getting at here. You gotta strike at the Rusher mentality instead of what they do because of that mentality. Until you do, people will just find other ways to rush, and non-rushers will be the ones to suffer because their tools for catching up will be gone.

 

Incentives around the levels, such as opportunities for greater-than-typical resource drops if one knows where to look, would be a good way to make rushers rethink blitzing through levels. They'd at least have more destinations to go to when trying to speed through levels, and these extra "pit-stops" would give other players some time to catch up.

[RyojinOrion]

First, are we certain the slide move cooldown was even to stop rushing? Have they said "we did this to stop rushers" and not to fix unintended mechanics?

 

No, I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but all the facts I have seen implies that it was. I'll continue under that assumption until they say otherwise.

 

 

 

And second, what the hell kind of logic does it take to come to the conclusion that DE knows you're rushing in protest of their change? You admit you know you're ruining games for others, yet you feel like your holy missions againts DEs changes that they have no idea is taking place is more important. That's some amazing logic.

 

Just because you fail to understand the logic doesn't mean it isn't there. It is pretty simple, actually. Just take a second to think about it. People were rushing, and other people were complaining about it and they implement this change. I rush specifically to make those same players frustrated so that they will continue to complain so the devs can see that their change isn't doing any good and try to focus on other ways to solve the problem. The logic is perfectly reasonable. This thread is a way to draw even more attention to the idea behind the thread, the idea that you have to cure the disease and not the symptoms.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[f3llyn]

No, I don't think it has been explicitly stated, but all the facts I have seen implies that it was. I'll continue under that assumption until they say otherwise.

 

 

 

 

Just because you fail to understand the logic doesn't mean it isn't there. It is pretty simple, actually. Just take a second to think about it. People were rushing, and other people were complaining about it and they implement this change. I rush specifically to make those same players frustrated so that they will continue to complain so the devs can see that their change isn't doing any good and try to focus on other ways to solve the problem. The logic is perfectly reasonable.

 

Do tell, what facts?

 

As for the rest, you're acting like spoiled brat who got in trouble, had their toy taken away, and is throwing a temper tantrum because they got told to go to bed without dinner. At the end of the day the only ones you're hurting are the players you're intentially &!$$ing off. DE can read the forums just as much as anyone else.

 

I feel it's completely relevant to say this even though it should be completely obvious. This game is still very much a beta. Changes will be made. One week something might be broken that you like and the next, not. It's up to you to not get to hung up on it and go with the flow and not act like a spoiled brat because last weeks toy got taken away.

Edited June 8, 2013 by f3llyn

[RyojinOrion]

Do tell, what facts?

 

Just look around on what the devs have said on the subject of rushing and the gameplay changes that specifically affect rushing. Speaks for itself, really.

 

 

 

As for the rest, you're acting like spoiled brat who got in trouble, had their toy taken away, and is throwing a temper tantrum because they got told to go to bed without dinner.

 

Your analogy sucks. This change didn't affect me personally. I didn't "get in trouble" "have my toy taken away" "get told to go to bed without dinner" or anything like that. I saw a change that seems to specifically target a player group (not even a player group that I am personally part of), a change that didn't even do any good in that regard, and felt that it needed attention. The easiest way to get attention is by doing things like this. That sucks, yeah, but that's the truth. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, you know.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[f3llyn]

Just look around on what the devs have said on the subject of rushing and the gameplay changes that specifically affect rushing. Speaks for itself, really.

 

 

 

 

Your analogy sucks. This change didn't affect me personally. I didn't "get in trouble" "have my toy taken away" "get told to go to bed without dinner" or anything like that. I saw a change that seems to specifically target a player group (not even a player group that I am personally part of), a change that didn't even do any good in that regard, and felt that it needed attention. The easiest way to get attention is by doing things like this. That sucks, yeah, but that's the truth. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, you know.

 

You're the one who said there were facts. So it's your job to post them to back up your argument.

 

And whatever the case, you're throwing a temper tantrum and taking it out on people who want nothing to do with it. That at the very least makes you an &#!.

Edited June 8, 2013 by f3llyn

[RyojinOrion]

You're the one who said there were facts. So it's your job to post them to back up your argument.

 

Sorry, but if you can't be bothered looking at what the devs have said on the subject, then I can't be bothered posting it here just to cover for your laziness.

 

 

 

 

 

And whatever the case, you're throwing a temper tantrum and taking it out on people who want nothing to do with it. That at the very least makes you an &#!.

 

I never claimed to not be an &#!, but at least I am an &#! with a conscience and good heart, hence the apology at the start and end of my original post and explanation of why I am acting like an &#!. I could have simply just done it and said nothing about it.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[f3llyn]

Sorry, but if you can't be bothered looking at what the devs have said on the subject, then I can't be bothered posting it here just to cover for your laziness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never claimed to not be an &#!, but at least I am an &#! with a conscience and good heart, hence the apology at the start and end of my original post and explanation of why I am acting like an &#!. I could have simply just done it and said nothing about it.

 

I might be lazy but I'm not the one claiming facts that don't exist.

 

And since you apologized that makes everything better. No, wait, it doens't.

[Lumireaver]

- snip - 

 

You seem to be having a bit of difficulty differentiating between intended features and unintended exploits. The dev consensus as far as we know is that speed runs which utilize wall-runs, ninja flips, and the occasional slide for mobility are cool, whereas speed runs which exploit the brief acceleration granted by slides and dumb AI faults are uncool. Given this impression, it would be safe to assume as time marches on, they will correct other mobility/AI related bugs.

 

I apologize if I haven't made my thoughts clear enough.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Lumireaver

[RyojinOrion]

I might be lazy but I'm not the one claiming facts that don't exist.

 

They do exist. Just because you can't be bothered finding them doesn't mean they don't exist. I can't be bothered finding a wild lion, but that doesn't mean wild lions don't exist, ya know.

 

 whereas speed runs which exploiting the brief acceleration granted by slides and dumb AI faults are uncool.

 

 

That is a playstyle. A playstyle that they are actively trying to eliminate. Whether or not it was intentional for that to be part of the game is pretty irrelevant to whether or not they are actively trying to eliminate that style of play. I apologize if I haven't made my thought clear enough as well. :D

[scavenge]

I'm going to follow your example on purpose.

Before slide cooldown it was actually viable to open "crates" but now... lol, just rush the nonsense.

Edited June 8, 2013 by scavenge

[Lumireaver]

That is a playstyle. A playstyle that they are actively trying to eliminate. Whether or not it was intentional for that to be part of the game is pretty irrelevant to whether or not they are actively trying to eliminate that style of play. I apologize if I haven't made my thought clear enough as well. :D

 

Ah, well now everything makes sense. You see, the issue here is that you're not playing the game DE is producing.

[Mietz]

Ah, well now everything makes sense. You see, the issue here is that you're not playing the game DE is producing.

 

I'm detecting a lot of head-up-your-arse.