I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[.Murk.]

14 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

damage resistance based on how much health she is missing on top of her already high armor, yes i'm aware armor doesn't scale as well as flat damage reduction (though this is mostly because armor is still subject to damage 2.0 damage modifiers puncture, radiation and whatnot and even more so since armor's damage resistance has diminishing returns its barely worth getting armor past 1200 because of how much the damage resistance falloff is at that point

also inaros doesn't need invincibility does he mostly because of how much healing he has access to and his absolutely ridiculous health pool (especially since it makes kubrows unbelievably good at surviving having over 9000 health) and i will keep making comparisons to inaros because overall, since as a frame he is just better than valkyr whilst having similar intended gameplay

also add in the over 1k healing syndicate proc's on inaros  from good ole' sancti, telos, and vaykor 

it sounds like you would be happy if there was a augment for Inaros to have a melee channel :p instead of turning valk into inaros 2 electric boogaloo 

[Machayna]

52 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

also inaros doesn't need invincibility does he mostly because of how much healing he has access to and his absolutely ridiculous health pool (especially since it makes kubrows unbelievably good at surviving having over 9000 health) and i will keep making comparisons to inaros because overall, since as a frame he is just better than valkyr whilst having similar intended gameplay

also add in the over 1k healing syndicate proc's on inaros  from good ole' sancti, telos, and vaykor 

Agreed on that.  I saw someone mentioning giving valkyr more health would be unfair because of her armor and such.  I'm not sure how all this works but I've been in 3rd Sorties like interception where my valkyr outside hysteria is getting 1-2 shotted with max health mod and max armor mod. I'm not sure if armor is bypassed by certain enemies or what.  Especially with sappers and bursas.  The reason I've pretty much switched to inaros for those higher level missions is that he can take the hit to his health for a longer period of time than Valkyr because he has so much of it.  And without using invincibility so there's still the challenge of not dying in there.  

While I'm not opposed to them keeping the skill the same I think there are ways to make the skill better that would fit with her theme. Here are some ideas....again just ideas.

Option 1.  Make it so that she loses health over time unless she's killing enemies.  I've seen this idea before and I think it would work.

Option 2. Give her a health buffer like Inaros when in hysteria and take away the invincibility.  She would still get the built in life strike.

Option 3. Make the invincibility and increased damage of hysteria an effect that can be triggered by going into an absorb state similar to Nyx.  Valkyr sits and soaks up damage.  Her invincibility lasts X amount of time and does X amount more damage for that time based on the damage she absorbs.  The rest of the time you could just give her a flat damage reduction and the built in lifestrike or make hysteria only last a few seconds with no damage absorbed.  You could allow valkyr to move in the absorb state she just can't attack for the absorb duration.

Again just ideas and I think that third one has some potential.  If you'd like to add to some of the ideas I'm fine with it.  Again though I'm alright with them keeping her as is.  I'd just prefer it if she needed more upkeep than running out of energy to be invincible.

 

[crashapple12]

5 minutes ago, Machayna said:

Agreed on that.  I saw someone mentioning giving valkyr more health would be unfair because of her armor and such.  I'm not sure how all this works but I've been in 3rd Sorties like interception where my valkyr outside hysteria is getting 1-2 shotted with max health mod and max armor mod. I'm not sure if armor is bypassed by certain enemies or what.  Especially with sappers and bursas.  The reason I've pretty much switched to inaros for those higher level missions is that he can take the hit to his health for a longer period of time than Valkyr because he has so much of it.  And without using invincibility so there's still the challenge of not dying in there.  

While I'm not opposed to them keeping the skill the same I think there are ways to make the skill better that would fit with her theme. Here are some ideas....again just ideas.

Option 1.  Make it so that she loses health over time unless she's killing enemies.  I've seen this idea before and I think it would work.

Option 2. Give her a health buffer like Inaros when in hysteria and take away the invincibility.  She would still get the built in life strike.

Option 3. Make the invincibility and increased damage of hysteria an effect that can be triggered by going into an absorb state similar to Nyx.  Valkyr sits and soaks up damage.  Her invincibility lasts X amount of time and does X amount more damage for that time based on the damage she absorbs.  The rest of the time you could just give her a flat damage reduction and the built in lifestrike or make hysteria only last a few seconds with no damage absorbed.  You could allow valkyr to move in the absorb state she just can't attack for the absorb duration.

Again just ideas and I think that third one has some potential.  If you'd like to add to some of the ideas I'm fine with it.  Again though I'm alright with them keeping her as is.  I'd just prefer it if she needed more upkeep than running out of energy to be invincible.

 

armor gives damage resistance with an incredibly steep falloff past 1200, meaning past 1200 armor you get a hell of alot more benefit from +100 maximum health than +500 armor. also bearing in mind that armor is still subject to damage 2.0 modifiers

[Machayna]

4 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

armor gives damage resistance with an incredibly steep falloff past 1200, meaning past 1200 armor you get a hell of alot more benefit from +100 maximum health than +500 armor. also bearing in mind that armor is still subject to damage 2.0 modifiers

Ah. That explains a bit.  So I guess I don't see why people would be against giving her more health then since her armor at a certain point because meaningless.  Thanks for the info.

[crashapple12]

27 minutes ago, Machayna said:

Ah. That explains a bit.  So I guess I don't see why people would be against giving her more health then since her armor at a certain point because meaningless.  Thanks for the info.

the only thing i can say in favor of not boosting her health pool is she has invincibility with high healing capabilities. this is made completely moot when you realize inaros exists and does similar things but is infinitely more useful to a team and its alot faster and easier for him to get access to his healing

 think about it, in reality what does valkyr bring to the table... an attackspeed buff which unless you are using a macro most people cant even use since chances are they are using a fast weapon, an armor buff which is incredibly selective on who its useful for(seriously for zephyr warcry isn't increasing the armor enough for it to be worth it), a small range stun(which is completely denied by ancient healers), a slow you cant activate enough for it to do anything useful, and the only thing she brings to the table that is actually tangible is easy revives

take a valkyr into defence people don't say yay attackspeed buff no if people wanted an attackspeed buff they would want a volt, in fact with the lesser part of the player base will even rage at you for even choosing valkyr and unless your intention is  realy realy high end suicidal tier survival then valkyr is surpassed by so many other frames 

and the average mission time for people who even try hard is 20-40 where other frames are more useful 

Edited March 21, 2016 by crashapple12

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

On 3/1/2016 at 5:15 PM, KaneAshe said:

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Brief invincibility can feel fun and powerful, permanent invincibility makes everything in the entire game feel pointless--including the process of collecting new items and powering up your Warframe, seeing as how Valk doesn't really need any of that to render almost all of the game's legitimate content completely trivial.

Please note, this is not a "nerf" thread. I know portions of this community have an allergic reaction to any mention of nerfs or balance tweaking, so let's completely set aside all argument over whether or not Valkyr is "OP" or not. The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Where's the excitement in knowing that nothing you do really matters because there is nothing whatsoever an enemy can do to stop you? How is it fun to have the highest armor in the game AND built-in lifesteal (both major reasons for why I chose Valk in the first place) When You Do Not Even Take Damage?!

I want to play as the deadly cat-like meat grinder of rage who survives by continually mowing down enemies while shrugging off damage as long as she is able to continue killing things... not the walking godmode who wonders why she is even playing the game because enemies might as well all die as soon as she enters the level to save her the trouble of killing them.

I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Please return the synergy to Valkyr's kit and make her gameplay engaging and exciting by whatever means necessary. Berserker gameplay should involve adrenaline. It's impossible to feel adrenaline when there is no threat and nothing at stake.

~Thank you from a player who wishes to be a Valkyr player.

You don't have to be permanently invincible when you play her. You don't have to use her 4 at all. I personally only use it when I need to revive a teammate who has put themselves in a horrible spot.

I also don't think any of the solutions provided here are the answer. Hysteria making Valkyr invincible is what makes her unique. She doesn't have range on her ult attacks like Excalibur does, therefore she needs the invincibility to counteract that. Adding a parkour bonus and delaying fatal damage will just make her completely ineffective when using hysteria because she needs to be up close for that ability to do damage. Parkour boosts just would allow her to either run away or close the gap between enemies quicker, which doesn't help if you can't survive. The solution here isn't to get rid of her invincibility. The solution should be for people to just stop modding her for infinite invincibility and think of hysteria more as a utility than a crutch. For instance, I only use hysteria for survivability when S#&$ hits the fan in survival missions where I need to get life support or revive a teammate who is stuck in a big crowd of high-level enemies. Most of the time I am just using warcry with my melee weapon equipped and the eternal war mod. In response to your comment about hysteria's lifesteal, if you are using hysteria as a utility and not as a crutch, chances are that you went into hysteria to save yourself from fatal damage and that you have already taken a decent amount of damage to begin with. That being said, the lifesteal is necessary to bring her health back up to max.

It isn't Valkyr's ability set that is the problem, it is the people who are playing her that is the problem. You don't need to mod her for infinite invincibility, but you choose to and because it is your choice to mod her that way, you really can't complain about her abilities being boring. You are the one controlling how you play her and just because you don't like how you play her, doesn't mean the developers should change her abilities. A big question for me here is why do you want to play her the most if you are unhappy with her fourth ability? You can have fun playing with her, like I do, if you stop using hysteria as a crutch. Only use it when it is absolutely necessary like to prevent fatal damage or to revive a teammate. The way you describe how you want to play her sounds like an eternal war build, so look up one of those and use that instead of your infinite hysteria build. When you do decide to finally play her the right way and not the way reddit tells you to, get yourself the prisma cleavers; the combination of those with warcry is a lot of fun.

Edited March 21, 2016 by h3adsh0ts4h1r3

[Machayna]

5 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

the only thing i can say in favor of not boosting her health pool is she has invincibility with high healing capabilities. this is made completely moot when you realize inaros exists and does similar things but is infinitely more useful to a team and its alot faster and easier for him to get access to his healing

 think about it, in reality what does valkyr bring to the table... an attackspeed buff which unless you are using a macro most people cant even use since chances are they are using a fast weapon, an armor buff which is incredibly selective on who its useful for(seriously for zephyr warcry isn't increasing the armor enough for it to be worth it), a small range stun(which is completely denied by ancient healers), a slow you cant activate enough for it to do anything useful, and the only thing she brings to the table that is actually tangible is easy revives

Right.  The reason I mentioned the boosted health thing is that this is discussing how to get rid of her invincibility but keep her "tanky".  WITH invincibility you are certainly correct.  No need to give her more health if keeping invincibility.

As to Inaros bringing more to the table I agree completely on that.  Again why I don't play valkyr much anymore.  Inaros has good CC and some heals and he's not restricted to melee for his survivability like valkyr either although he is certainly a good melee frame as well.  

[crashapple12]

1 minute ago, Machayna said:

Right.  The reason I mentioned the boosted health thing is that this is discussing how to get rid of her invincibility but keep her "tanky".  WITH invincibility you are certainly correct.  No need to give her more health if keeping invincibility.

As to Inaros bringing more to the table I agree completely on that.  Again why I don't play valkyr much anymore.  Inaros has good CC and some heals and he's not restricted to melee for his survivability like valkyr either although he is certainly a good melee frame as well.  

the amount of times i have to explain whether or not you can even click e fast enough or even combo properly for the attack speed to even matter is fairly staggering, same thing with semi auto weapons that you bind fire to the mouse wheel for

[Machayna]

1 hour ago, crashapple12 said:

the amount of times i have to explain whether or not you can even click e fast enough or even combo properly for the attack speed to even matter is fairly staggering, same thing with semi auto weapons that you bind fire to the mouse wheel for

Secondary bind melee to mouse wheel up and down but I know what you mean.  TBH though I'd be interested to hear in which cases you have found that the swing speed was too fast when just looking at valkyr buff + maybe berserker.  The only time i really noticed that it was TOO fast was when I had berserker and fury on the same slow weapon and then valkyr did speed boost.

[SKbrau]

Perm invincibility isn't really the issues at all, lack of synergy with other skills Is. 

I may be in a minority here, but I think Rip-line is a valuable skill.  I've found this useful when returning to the group after reviving a downed team mate. (group nurse Valkyr anyone?) BUT i do this it needs a little work. If it is allowed to do damage it needs to scale in a different way (maybe %age of remaining enemy life?)

both Paralysis and war cry need a re-work BADLY..  Honestly I think their positions should be switched

Paralysis should be worked into something... adrenaline shot? lose 200 HP for 75 energy?

War Cry however, is missing a GREAT opportunity for synergy.  This should be an Exspensive Zone wide Threat Magnet (meaning, by using this skill you draw the threat from all the enemies in the area, Allowing a team a few moments to do an objective or res a fallen ally)

maybe for the duration grant a VERY VERY minor damage reduction based of how many enemies are within melee range. 

 

with Hysteria we need to fear more than paracidic eximus. Let Crits bypass Hysteria's damage mitigation maybe? make there be a reason to have life leech other then oops reached too much lets hit 4 for a second or two and get some life back..  She was broken in a lab ya? make it still apperant she was mucked with. 

[-CM-Machete]

Just make Hysteria drain HP along with energy and drop the "stored damage" drawback because it is just a nope design-wise, I don't know why they make such unintuitive and complicated things, it's like jumping a wall having the gate open: you can insta-die if Hysteria deactivates at higher levels because you can get enough to be killed by it in a matter of seconds, and you can also stay in that shape for over an hour without being bothered by putting a Narrow Minded on. 

 

[Cryhunter059]

If you don't like being permantly invincible, either:

A. Stop using Hysteria, and use her other powers

B. Dip in and out of Hysteria to regain health

 

Nobody is forcing you to stay in Hysteria for long periods of time, and she can be play perfectly fine without it. 

 

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

35 minutes ago, Cryhunter059 said:

If you don't like being permantly invincible, either:

A. Stop using Hysteria, and use her other powers

B. Dip in and out of Hysteria to regain health

 

Nobody is forcing you to stay in Hysteria for long periods of time, and she can be play perfectly fine without it. 

 

Finally, someone with a brain is posting here.

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

3 hours ago, SKbrau said:

Perm invincibility isn't really the issues at all, lack of synergy with other skills Is. 

I may be in a minority here, but I think Rip-line is a valuable skill.  I've found this useful when returning to the group after reviving a downed team mate. (group nurse Valkyr anyone?) BUT i do this it needs a little work. If it is allowed to do damage it needs to scale in a different way (maybe %age of remaining enemy life?)

both Paralysis and war cry need a re-work BADLY..  Honestly I think their positions should be switched

Paralysis should be worked into something... adrenaline shot? lose 200 HP for 75 energy?

War Cry however, is missing a GREAT opportunity for synergy.  This should be an Exspensive Zone wide Threat Magnet (meaning, by using this skill you draw the threat from all the enemies in the area, Allowing a team a few moments to do an objective or res a fallen ally)

maybe for the duration grant a VERY VERY minor damage reduction based of how many enemies are within melee range. 

 

with Hysteria we need to fear more than paracidic eximus. Let Crits bypass Hysteria's damage mitigation maybe? make there be a reason to have life leech other then oops reached too much lets hit 4 for a second or two and get some life back..  She was broken in a lab ya? make it still apperant she was mucked with. 

Do you even play Valkyr? Warcry and paralysis have fine synergy. The whole point is to use paralysis to stun the enemies in close proximity to you and quickly cast warcry which will allow you to beat them up quicker. Also, paralysis and warcry being used while in hysteria mesh fine. Stunning nullifiers when their bubbles are down by using paralysis so you can quickly take them out. As far as warcry is concerned, I shouldn't have to explain why that meshes so well with hysteria (melee attack speed and enemy slowing). There is no need for a rework of her abilities. Valkyr isn't really a teamwork kind of frame. Plus, it is ridiculous to have a threat magnet for her so that other teammates can have time to revive fallen teammates or do an objective when she can just do that while in hysteria.

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

2 hours ago, PersonalYisus said:

Just make Hysteria drain HP along with energy and drop the "stored damage" drawback because it is just a nope design-wise, I don't know why they make such unintuitive and complicated things, it's like jumping a wall having the gate open: you can insta-die if Hysteria deactivates at higher levels because you can get enough to be killed by it in a matter of seconds, and you can also stay in that shape for over an hour without being bothered by putting a Narrow Minded on. 

 

If you are using hysteria the right way, it means that you weren't sitting in it the entire time and that you have taken a decent amount of damage, meaning that you are in hysteria to escape from taking any more damage and to earn back health with the lifesteal it offers. Therefore, having it drain health would be counter-intuitive to the purpose of hysteria.

The reason why so many people on this forum are having issues with Valkyr's abilities is because they are playing her with only one thing in mind. There are other ways to play her that don't revolve around her fourth ability. It is meant to be a utility, not a crutch. Your comment about making hysteria drain HP along with energy clearly shows that you are one of those people who just play her with an infinite invincibility build and haven't tried anything else.

The reason why the stored damage is there is to force the player to either kill every enemy within a certain radius of them or distance themselves from the enemies before hysteria runs out. This simply proves that the way people have been using Valkyr (infinite invincibility builds) is not the way that she was meant to be played. It isn't a design flaw, it is simply people promoting a cancerous way of playing the frame and then claiming that it's boring or needs to be changed. Stop playing Valkyr the wrong way and you will enjoy the frame. Don't constantly use hysteria, but rather use it as a way to revive allies or get life support or gain back health by taking out a bunch of enemies in an area.

There are a ton of people who sit in Excalibur's exalted blade ability and there is even a farming method that has arisen involving an infinite exalted blade build which is ridiculous and isn't how the game is supposed to be played, but no one complains about that. Instead, people find Excalibur's exalted blade to be cool and many people use it. I've entered countless squads where you just have some kid running around in exalted blade, stealing everyone's kills from a distance with that stupid blade noise and yet there is no thread about how ridiculous that ability is. Valkyr's ult makes her invincible because she doesn't have the range that Excalibur's ult has, nor does she have the damage output.

The people who complain about this topic aren't really understanding the way the frame is supposed to be played and the comment quoted here exemplifies someone who only uses an infinite hysteria build because of the lack of knowledge of what the lifesteal is meant for on the ability. An uneducated suggestion that the ability should also drain health is nothing short of ignorant of what the ability was really meant to do.

[-CM-Machete]

1 hour ago, h3adsh0ts4h1r3 said:

If you are using hysteria the right way, it means that you weren't sitting in it the entire time and that you have taken a decent amount of damage, meaning that you are in hysteria to escape from taking any more damage and to earn back health with the lifesteal it offers. Therefore, having it drain health would be counter-intuitive to the purpose of hysteria.

The reason why so many people on this forum are having issues with Valkyr's abilities is because they are playing her with only one thing in mind. There are other ways to play her that don't revolve around her fourth ability. It is meant to be a utility, not a crutch. Your comment about making hysteria drain HP along with energy clearly shows that you are one of those people who just play her with an infinite invincibility build and haven't tried anything else.

The reason why the stored damage is there is to force the player to either kill every enemy within a certain radius of them or distance themselves from the enemies before hysteria runs out. This simply proves that the way people have been using Valkyr (infinite invincibility builds) is not the way that she was meant to be played. It isn't a design flaw, it is simply people promoting a cancerous way of playing the frame and then claiming that it's boring or needs to be changed. Stop playing Valkyr the wrong way and you will enjoy the frame. Don't constantly use hysteria, but rather use it as a way to revive allies or get life support or gain back health by taking out a bunch of enemies in an area.

There are a ton of people who sit in Excalibur's exalted blade ability and there is even a farming method that has arisen involving an infinite exalted blade build which is ridiculous and isn't how the game is supposed to be played, but no one complains about that. Instead, people find Excalibur's exalted blade to be cool and many people use it. I've entered countless squads where you just have some kid running around in exalted blade, stealing everyone's kills from a distance with that stupid blade noise and yet there is no thread about how ridiculous that ability is. Valkyr's ult makes her invincible because she doesn't have the range that Excalibur's ult has, nor does she have the damage output.

The people who complain about this topic aren't really understanding the way the frame is supposed to be played and the comment quoted here exemplifies someone who only uses an infinite hysteria build because of the lack of knowledge of what the lifesteal is meant for on the ability. An uneducated suggestion that the ability should also drain health is nothing short of ignorant of what the ability was really meant to do.

Yeah... no, that's gibberish, like the "no true scotsman" fallacy. The point is: you should NOT be able to become forever invinsible in first place. And how is it draining health counter intuitive when you replenish health by hurting enemies? No, draining health is a way to ensure you activate Hysteria when you needed and deactivate it when you don't, your answer is the counter intuitive one. 

"The reason why the stored damage is there is to force the player to either kill every enemy within a certain radius of them or distance themselves from the enemies before hysteria runs out"

Which doesn't make any sense at all as a punishment because its range is 5 meters. You are still not adressing none of my points, you just grabbed a generalization and played with it.

I don't use hysteria all the time, but you are very easy throwing me inside that bag, because it is easier for you to dismiss my argument by creating a straw man and arguing against it, the complaints have nothing to do with the way of playing Valkyr, but with what you are ABLE TO DO with her, and the same goes for OP's stance.

 Mesa wasn't supposed to for you to use her 4th all the time, it doesn't mean it didn't  need to be reworked in a way it motivates players to do something other than pressing 4 and holding LMB for two minutes, getting your energy refilled and repeat the process, it's just a request to make it more engaging, you can literally choose to not take advantage of any exploit or design flaws, that doesn't change the fact that they exist. 

There is some people, who are to self-centered they do not understand the world isn't what they got in their heads and their conjectures based on themselves can't be extrapolated to the rest of the people and the reply I got above is a perfect example for that.

The ego cloud you flying on and your arrogance are impressive, sadly your arguments aren't.

 

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

11 hours ago, PersonalYisus said:

Yeah... no, that's gibberish, like the "no true scotsman" fallacy. The point is: you should NOT be able to become forever invinsible in first place. And how is it draining health counter intuitive when you replenish health by hurting enemies? No, draining health is a way to ensure you activate Hysteria when you needed and deactivate it when you don't, your answer is the counter intuitive one. 

"The reason why the stored damage is there is to force the player to either kill every enemy within a certain radius of them or distance themselves from the enemies before hysteria runs out"

Which doesn't make any sense at all as a punishment because its range is 5 meters. You are still not adressing none of my points, you just grabbed a generalization and played with it.

I don't use hysteria all the time, but you are very easy throwing me inside that bag, because it is easier for you to dismiss my argument by creating a straw man and arguing against it, the complaints have nothing to do with the way of playing Valkyr, but with what you are ABLE TO DO with her, and the same goes for OP's stance.

 Mesa wasn't supposed to for you to use her 4th all the time, it doesn't mean it didn't  need to be reworked in a way it motivates players to do something other than pressing 4 and holding LMB for two minutes, getting your energy refilled and repeat the process, it's just a request to make it more engaging, you can literally choose to not take advantage of any exploit or design flaws, that doesn't change the fact that they exist. 

There is some people, who are to self-centered they do not understand the world isn't what they got in their heads and their conjectures based on themselves can't be extrapolated to the rest of the people and the reply I got above is a perfect example for that.

The ego cloud you flying on and your arrogance are impressive, sadly your arguments aren't.

 

For example, you are down to 20 health or so and you go into hysteria to prevent dying, if there is health drain, and the enemies are decently powerful, you're going to die right there in hysteria due to the fact that Valkyr only has close range combos in hysteria and if the enemies are strong and haven't taken a lot of damage, chances are that you're just going to die because hysteria doesn't do that much damage (which is why health drain is a bad solution). The answer isn't adding health drain to hysteria, however, I agree that the people who are always in hysteria are annoying and the game really shouldn't be played that way. Therefore, maybe the developers should remedy the situation not by causing health drain, but by implementing a maximum for hysteria. By this, I mean that mods will only work to an extent in order to prolong hysteria (similar to how only a certain amount of power strength affects enemy slowing for nova's molecular prime and anything modded beyond that has no effect). This would force people out of hysteria after a certain time because they would only be able to make the channeling for it effective to a certain extent. The same should be done for Excalibur's exalted blade.

Mesa's fourth ability was a mess because of how optimized it was for Draco and affinity farming in general.

You didn't really have an argument in your original comment, just a suggestion and if people are arguing against hysteria because they find it boring (like OP is doing and you seem to be doing) then the quickest solution is just to change the way you play the frame.

As far as your last few pretentious sentences, my opinions are not conjectures because they aren't based on incomplete information. Everything on this thread is an opinion based on people's experiences with the frame. I too could say your opinion on how Valkyr should be changed is based on yourself and can't be extrapolated to the rest of the people simply because of the fact that your opinion is the same as everyone who plays the game and it is based on your personal experiences.

Did you tip your fedora after typing that last sentence?

[-CM-Machete]

4 hours ago, h3adsh0ts4h1r3 said:

For example, you are down to 20 health or so and you go into hysteria to prevent dying, if there is health drain, and the enemies are decently powerful, you're going to die right there in hysteria due to the fact that Valkyr only has close range combos in hysteria and if the enemies are strong and haven't taken a lot of damage, chances are that you're just going to die because hysteria doesn't do that much damage (which is why health drain is a bad solution). The answer isn't adding health drain to hysteria, however, I agree that the people who are always in hysteria are annoying and the game really shouldn't be played that way. Therefore, maybe the developers should remedy the situation not by causing health drain, but by implementing a maximum for hysteria. By this, I mean that mods will only work to an extent in order to prolong hysteria (similar to how only a certain amount of power strength affects enemy slowing for nova's molecular prime and anything modded beyond that has no effect). This would force people out of hysteria after a certain time because they would only be able to make the channeling for it effective to a certain extent. The same should be done for Excalibur's exalted blade.

Mesa's fourth ability was a mess because of how optimized it was for Draco and affinity farming in general.

You didn't really have an argument in your original comment, just a suggestion and if people are arguing against hysteria because they find it boring (like OP is doing and you seem to be doing) then the quickest solution is just to change the way you play the frame.

As far as your last few pretentious sentences, my opinions are not conjectures because they aren't based on incomplete information. Everything on this thread is an opinion based on people's experiences with the frame. I too could say your opinion on how Valkyr should be changed is based on yourself and can't be extrapolated to the rest of the people simply because of the fact that your opinion is the same as everyone who plays the game and it is based on your personal experiences.

Did you tip your fedora after typing that last sentence?

"For example, you are down to 20 health or so and you go into hysteria to prevent dying, if there is health drain, and the enemies are decently powerful, you're going to die right there in hysteria due to the fact that Valkyr only has close range combos in hysteria and if the enemies are strong and haven't taken a lot of damage, chances are that you're just going to die because hysteria doesn't do that much damage (which is why health drain is a bad solution)"

Have you heard about Percentages? Tax brackets? The drain can get adjusted after there is certain amount of HP left, like draining only 2HP per second at 30HP left and 1HP/s after 14HP there are many ways. You can get a a lot more than the possible HP drain per second with a couple of swings against a lvl130 Heavy Gunner. So... no, You are still wrong. Hysteria should have a real drawback for enabling it, and if you are required to keep killing mobs, you will rather use Warcry most of the time.

Also you forget how ridiculous is to call for a "hole" in my proposition when with the things being the current way, you can get insta-killed at high levels because you get enough stored damage very easily, you can dismantle any game feature or design choice by making a ridiculous  "What if...?" extreme case scenario. The fact that you can also ruin shrink the radius to a ridiculous number with Narrowminded is exactly why it is very small to start with, it's meant for players to be cheap, you are confusing your idea of a "fair play" with what Developers actually intended, and it was meant for that: you rather go full hysteria cheap-broken or with a balanced build without that much duration but while keepinh all of your 4 abilities functional.

I've tested her, against  a LVL130 Heavy Gunner (which you can just almost kill by slamming him and doing a finisher), and I easily got my hp back, if you are about to get killed and use Hysteria, there is probably a mob close to you which you can just HURT and get your HP back. Even in your ridiculous example, it is still viable. What it isn't of course, is getting instakilled. And yes, you will answer that you can avoid that by getting away from enemies, you could also avoid being killed with low HP by hurting an enemy instead of running away.

"Mesa's fourth ability was a mess because of how optimized it was for Draco and affinity farming in general."

True...And? Valkyr can become INVINCIBLE.

"...just a suggestion and if people are arguing against hysteria because they find it boring..."

It's boring BECAUSE SHE IS OP. Jesus Christ what an ability you have to flip the talk. And that's exactly why people calls for a nerf, there should be balance, and again, as I told you before, you can just restrain yourself from using exploits and broken abilities... and how does this helps to fix their existance which is an issue by itself and the fact that the CAN BE USED? And the fact that is a suggestions and describes the main issue and a way to solve it is enough as a point.

"By this, I mean that mods will only work to an extent in order to prolong hysteria"

How does arbitrarily reducing its duration or strenght change it? Comparing MP with Hysteria is just apples vs oranges. You can throw anything you have in your head (because I don't know, you didn't explain the actual way it would work or even where would the restrictions be), slowly reducing damage, increasing power consumption, anything, and it would just be the same. The idea of an HP drain is exactly for it to synergize with Hysteria life-steal ability: you rather kill stuff or go back to being a mortal.

-----------------------------------------

You are accusing us of playing Valkyr the wrong way (cheap, full hysteria) and while we are here trying to stop that from being POSSIBLE, you are arguing for it, because we can just not use it and problem solved. Your idea to fix it  is making it look different while keeping it the same. 

At the end, it just sounds like you are the one who plays her cheap and you are just affraid of an actual fix to everlasting invincibility.

Edited March 22, 2016 by PersonalYisus

[SKbrau]

23 hours ago, h3adsh0ts4h1r3 said:

Do you even play Valkyr? Warcry and paralysis have fine synergy. The whole point is to use paralysis to stun the enemies in close proximity to you and quickly cast warcry which will allow you to beat them up quicker. Also, paralysis and warcry being used while in hysteria mesh fine. Stunning nullifiers when their bubbles are down by using paralysis so you can quickly take them out.

As far as warcry is concerned, I shouldn't have to explain why that meshes so well with hysteria (melee attack speed and enemy slowing). There is no need for a rework of her abilities. Valkyr isn't really a teamwork kind of frame. Plus, it is ridiculous to have a threat magnet for her so that other teammates can have time to revive fallen teammates or do an objective when she can just do that while in hysteria.

Utter redundancy that does not do the frame many favours outside of solo play.   Do you user a wet noodle for your melee weapon? simple slide attack on a semi decent built melee weapon can take these nullifiers out in one shot when their level exceed 100 and are tailed by a pair of shield drones. 

So no, redundancy  isn't the same thing as synergy

hysteria literally covers all the solo needs for this frame. She has the raw stats to manage much of what is thrown at her with your proper use scenario. 

team synergy would put her on par for utility with other frame, otherwise most teams would be better off with a rhino in most situations 

[(PSN)Asdeft]

I always liked the "Rage Crash" mechanic of the Rage power set on DC Universe Online. You would activate the ability and for 8 seconds, you would be invincible. After the 8 seconds were up, you would take all the damage you should have taken during the ability unless the ability runs out during a one of the several power combos and it rewarded aggression and good combo timing to dodge damage so it felt like it was deserved damage negation. 

Also take Krieg the Psycho from Borderlands 2. He has his buzz axe rampage that gives him some damage reduction and heals him completely for kills as a reward to keep aggression up.

 

The way this might be implemented here is unclear to me, but I think Valkyr needs to be rewarded for aggression with Hysteria rather than just invincibility. She can perhaps  just have that ~5% damage accumulation activate on its own after several seconds (20?) of not killing rather than when you de-activate Hysteria with enemies nearby. We can stop pretending it is actually fun to be unkillable, it isn't fun, it is just easy and relaxing maybe, but not fun. 

[FitzSimmons]

why do you use hysteria all the time if you don't like being permanently invincible? there are 4 abilities on every warframe and you only use 1 of 4. same as when people call warframe is boring and not challenging but all they do is recruiting mirage for her disco ball everytime.

[Vohim]

valkyr needs a whole rework  i find that even warcry is useless asides from its attack speed  and that she needs a serious health buff   and her shield probably needs a 50% increase

as armor in this game is worth nothing apparently ,i run around with 1600 armor without warcry   and even with warcry  i die no slower than whatever low armor warframe is with me on high level missions 

 

so yeah im all up for removing invulnerability from hysteria but she needs to be compensated everywhere else i'd rather have warcry give 30% crit 30% armor and 40%% attack speed  scaling up with power to double those numbers on max power builds

 

paralysis needs its range upped by 50-100%

 

Hysteria  i personally dont even use it asides for quick heals or reviving allies  as in high level missions  enemies dont seem to drop energy orbs and even if they do theres tons of energy drain eximus or  corpus nullifiers  rendering valkyr completely useless 

 

Edit :another time hysteria is actually useful is for sorties that ask for specific weapons and  i dont have good mods for or havent forma'd nor potato'd  

like bow only or rifle only, in those sorties i can use hysteria either to draw aggro on me or actually kill some stuff faster than using the actual weapons but again rendered useless if energy drain eximus or corpus nullifiers and such are around

Edited March 23, 2016 by Retepzednem

[(PSN)Manlikenarkz]

Hysteria just needs a tweak, more energy per second and you shouldn't be able to pick anything up (including energy orbs)

[h3adsh0ts4h1r3]

11 hours ago, SKbrau said:

Utter redundancy that does not do the frame many favours outside of solo play.   Do you user a wet noodle for your melee weapon? simple slide attack on a semi decent built melee weapon can take these nullifiers out in one shot when their level exceed 100 and are tailed by a pair of shield drones. 

So no, redundancy  isn't the same thing as synergy

hysteria literally covers all the solo needs for this frame. She has the raw stats to manage much of what is thrown at her with your proper use scenario. 

team synergy would put her on par for utility with other frame, otherwise most teams would be better off with a rhino in most situations 

hmm, actually I see your point. paralysis is a bit redundant and as of now the only thing she does for teammates is the warcry buff and the ability to revive them while in hysteria. They should probably change paralysis to give her someting to offer teammates so that she isn't just a selfish frame