Multiplicative Stacking Needs to Stop

[KGeddon]

Multishot is a wierd example. If multishot increased ammo consumption then it would arguably be too similar to a +fire rate mod... which is redundant. Honestly, because of the way the game works at the moment I think multishot should be left as it stands now. The position it's is an "in or out" sort of place... meaning that if you nerf it in the way you suggested then it's too similar to an existing mod, which means that the only route to take is to remove it from the game altogether. However, this solution would leave many people's weapon builds empty--what would be the compensation for that? On the other hand, if you leave it where it stands you'll have people farming exclusively for multishot.

That's exactly why a thread like this is so important, if the mods were stacked Additively instead of Multiplicatively then it would still keep multishot relevant while still providing diversity in builds. This is the perfect solution to the people who are merely stacking multishot. There would be absolutely no need to nerf multishot at all if this Additive system was implemented.

I haven't had the time to sift through the comments of this thread so I don't know if this has already been mentioned but if this Additive system was implemented it would also mean that the recent Critical Damage nerf would have to be reverted (or at least capped at 100%) because if it is not then a Critical Damage mod would be a trash tier mod that no-one would want... ever.

EDIT: Gramerz

Multishot is multiplicative by it's very nature. And set at a very high maximum. You too fail to math correctly. Changing everything to additive simply makes multishot more powerful and desirable.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

[lots of stuff]

So, I had a rather long post written, but then I had to go so I didn't get the chance to finish it. While I was AFK, I realized something that will make you very happy: I was wrong. From a balance standpoint, it is irrelevant if multishot, damage, and rate stack multiplicatively with themselves because they still stack multiplicatively with each other.

It is relevant and important to change shields (already done), crit damage, and armor to additive though as those systems are not externally multiplicative (technically, yes crit is multiplicative with damage output, but it is at such a wildly different scale that IMO it can be treated as its own entity, separate from ordinary, reliable damage).

At this point then, the only reason to change all systems to additive is sheer standardization.

I stand corrected.

[Sev7n]

I have no idea what guns you've been using. Chaining five charge hits is absolutely not faster than using guns, and absolutely too long to be exposing yourself to fire from other mobs.

I've never argued against Pluto being harder. I'm arguing that just giving enemies huge HP is a pretty boring way to make the game harder compared to giving them more challenging patterns, more varied heavy units or other alternatives. The present approach of just escalating their HP to huge numbers tends to limit the number of tactics for players to choose between as compared to earlier missions, which effectively makes the game simpler, not more complex, and that's a pretty backward approach to an endgame.

If enemies had HP comparable to Earth or Neptune but were more dangerous offensively and had more varied heavy support the game would still be harder, but players would have more solutions to the problem their formations presented than frantically pumping bullets into the middle of their formations. An approach like this would make the game deeper. An approach like you're defending makes it shallower.

Lets compare "close range" weapons for a second.

Base damage of the heck is 130, strun is 120,

Base charge attack damage of the chronus is 75, furax is 150, scindo is 200.

Now how exactly are you busting out more charge attacks with the melee weapons then these shotguns are blasting out even with there low rate of fire?

You people really need to pay attention to what was written, a lvl >>>>>2<<<< sword is able to kill a lvl >>>>50<<<<<< mob in pluto in 5 charge attacks top. YES that is not as strong as using guns or quicker but the sword IS LEVEL 2. At rank 30 or even 15 with good mods IT WILL kill in one charge attack which is faster than using guns.-.- However YES the close range guns such as the shotguns ARE going to produce more damage than melee weapons but in return they THEY ARE PUT ON LIMETED AMMO, which in return balances it out.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

You people really need to pay attention to what was written, a lvl >>>>>2<<<< sword is able to kill a lvl >>>>50<<<<<< mob in pluto in 5 charge attacks top. YES that is not as strong as using guns or quicker but the sword IS LEVEL 2. At rank 30 or even 15 with good mods IT WILL kill in one charge attack which is faster than using guns.-.- However YES the close range guns such as the shotguns ARE going to produce more damage than melee weapons but in return they THEY ARE PUT ON LIMETED AMMO, which in return balances it out.

Even if they are short-ranged, guns still are safer to use than a sword because they have at least some range and one charge attack still takes longer than clicking a button which might also have puncture involved, killing several at once.

[Ronyn]

You people really need to pay attention to what was written, a lvl >>>>>2<<<< sword is able to kill a lvl >>>>50<<<<<< mob in pluto in 5 charge attacks top. YES that is not as strong as using guns or quicker but the sword IS LEVEL 2. At rank 30 or even 15 with good mods IT WILL kill in one charge attack which is faster than using guns.-.- However YES the close range guns such as the shotguns ARE going to produce more damage than melee weapons but in return they THEY ARE PUT ON LIMETED AMMO, which in return balances it out.

Your theoretical projections are incorect.

I actually have both some maxed out swords and maxed out guns.

I know several others who do as well and we all have the same understanding.

The top ranking players in the game have referenced this as well.

Seriously read up on it.

Both the math and the experts prove it.

There is no comparison in effectiveness. Guns are better.

The limited ammo on shotguns is not even remotely enough to balance it out.

Youre still better off using them because they kill so much faster and at a safer range.

Other weapons like the gorgon chew through enemies faster than melee due to their high rate of fire.

Bottom line is that Its easier to break line of sight or disengage momentarily to reload then it is to get out of melee range when enemies hit you back.

Without some good melee damage mods on your amor melee isnt going to compete with the guns.

[Sev7n]

Your theoretical projections are incorect.

I actually have both some maxed out swords and maxed out guns.

I know several others who do as well and we all have the same understanding.

The top ranking players in the game have referenced this as well.

Seriously read up on it.

Both the math and the experts prove it.

There is no comparison in effectiveness. Guns are better.

The limited ammo on shotguns is not even remotely enough to balance it out.

Youre still better off using them because they kill so much faster and at a safer range.

Other weapons like the gorgon chew through enemies faster than melee due to their high rate of fire.

Bottom line is that Its easier to break line of sight or disengage momentarily to reload then it is to get out of melee range when enemies hit you back.

Without some good melee damage mods on your amor melee isnt going to compete with the guns.

dude guns ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE STRONGER THAN MELEE WEAPONS -.- If you expect this games best damage output to be from melee weapons your in the wrong game. They ARE still effective enough whether or not a type of gun is going to be stronger, look at infected lvls for example you can run around 1 slash killing everything OR if you have duel skanas or the Bo 1 hit killing MULITPLE enemies. <<<That is more effective than guns especially since some infected lvls can force you out of ammo so quick if guns is all you use. When you have to be stealthy MELEE WEAPONS ARE BETTER THAN GUNS you can still 1 charge kill any enemy (excluding bosses) with a well built melee weapon AND if you ARE stealthy about it it refrains the ship from being alerted to your pressence.And yes using guns is both safer and easier BUT if mobs sneak up behind you or start to get close you can bust out your melee weapon and slash em down WHICH IS MORE EFFECTIVE they dont continue to fire at you when they are being hit with melee weapons UNLIKE guns they still shoot back SO AGAIN that is another thing melee weapons have that helps balance them -.-

[Zh40]

If we had the stylized combat of, say, Devil May Cry or Bayonetta, where melee weapons build energy, and where abilities actually gave a boost to our weapon damage, melee weapons would be used a hell of a lot more.

[Ronyn]

dude guns ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE STRONGER THAN MELEE WEAPONS -.- If you expect this games best damage output to be from melee weapons your in the wrong game.

Ok, first dont speak for DE.

Second, with my current amor mod build my melee is doing huge damage so I'm able to play the way I want to.

I simply asked if DE will be modifying things in a way that will allow me to continue to do that after the math changes.

Third, if youre acknowledging that guns are stronger than melee what is the point of arguing with me at all?

They ARE still effective enough whether or not a type of gun is going to be stronger, -.-

i didnt say melee wasnt effective. I said it wasnt competative.

look at infected lvls for example you can run around 1 slash killing everything OR if you have duel skanas or the Bo 1 hit killing MULITPLE enemies. <<<That is more effective than guns especially since some infected lvls can force you out of ammo so quick if guns is all you use.

An equally leveled gun with puncture can kill multiple enemies in less time from a safer distance.

And mixing in melee to kill weaker enemies to conserve ammo is smart but that doesnt mean they are competative.

Whats going on there is youre accepting the melee weapons as a lesser tool meant to be used to save up the better tool...

and thats cool if thats how you like to play.

I just asked if i could continue to play differently as I do now.

When you have to be stealthy MELEE WEAPONS ARE BETTER THAN GUNS you can still 1 charge kill any enemy (excluding bosses) with a well built melee weapon AND if you ARE stealthy about it it refrains the ship from being alerted to your pressence.

Melee is certainly more quiet and that is one advantage.

But you cant one charge attack kill everything you run across.

Not just bosses but many heavy types as well.

And yes using guns is both safer and easier BUT if mobs sneak up behind you or start to get close you can bust out your melee weapon and slash em down WHICH IS MORE EFFECTIVE they dont continue to fire at you when they are being hit with melee weapons UNLIKE guns they still shoot back SO AGAIN that is another thing melee weapons have that helps balance them -.-

We can use both our melee and guns at close range.

So the harder hitting weapon is still the harder hitting weapon at any range.

In fact you wont be getting any charge attacks off when the enemies have suprised you in that close of range so now we are comparing the standard strikes vereses the guns. Which is quote clearly going to lean to the guns.

UNLESS you have melee damage mods on your armor.

Which is what I was asking about in the first place.

How long are we going to do this? lol

Edited January 23, 2013 by Ronyn

[Sev7n]

Well your obviously never going to look at the topic any other way than what you initially believed. You think that melee weapons dont hold much use in the game right now because apparently all guns are going to be more usefull or equally usefull in every situation and at safer range? You think you cant 1 charge attack enemies and thats wrong, bosses and mini bosses ya you cant 1 shot them but everything else you can even without melee mods in your warframe. Unless my character is just somehow stronger than all the others? As for close range emergencies where melee is the better option i did not say with charge attacks, if you pay attention to the information i'm pointing out rather than spend you time trying to troll it you would have read that. When you use a normal slash attack, NOT CHARGE ATTACK, the enemy has a sort of stun effect and will stumble unable to attack you, do this in a large group of enemies attack multiple ones at once and none will be shooting you which kills them slower but saves your shield and hp. This can go on as long as you want, im tired of reading trolls complain about melee weapons when they are fine the way they are. Of anything that needs to be fixed on em its the diversity in stats among all melee weapons and the need of more combat animations.

[Ronyn]

Well your obviously never going to look at the topic any other way than what you initially believed.

What I believe? Please read what the top ranking players say about melee.

You think that melee weapons dont hold much use in the game right now because apparently all guns are going to be more usefull or equally usefull in every situation and at safer range?

I didnt say "dont hold much use". I said not compete with guns. very different thing.

You think you cant 1 charge attack enemies and thats wrong, bosses and mini bosses ya you cant 1 shot them but everything else you can even without melee mods in your warframe.

By "minibosses" do you mean heavies?

Cause what I said was you cant one shot heavies.

Sounds like we are talking about the same thing.

As for close range emergencies where melee is the better option i did not say with charge attacks, if you pay attention to the information i'm pointing out rather than spend you time trying to troll it you would have read that. When you use a normal slash attack, NOT CHARGE ATTACK, the enemy has a sort of stun effect and will stumble unable to attack you, do this in a large group of enemies attack multiple ones at once and none will be shooting you which kills them slower but saves your shield and hp.

Youre putting words in my mouth.

All I did was clarify that we were talking about standard attacks in those situation and therefore that would be the comparison.

At any rate guns can stun and hit multiple enemies too. Generaly doing more damage in the process.

This can go on as long as you want, im tired of reading trolls complain about melee weapons when they are fine the way they are.

By trolls you mean who exactly? Everyone who wants melee to be stronger.

Its just a matter of how one likes the game to play.

I respect your preferences you should respect mine.

Of anything that needs to be fixed on em its the diversity in stats among all melee weapons and the need of more combat animations.

More diversity of stats and more combat animations would be great.

Those things are on the way.

[Zxypher]

I fixed the math for the next update. The intent with Mods is actually to avoid "best" builds. To that end, the slot limits, a growing diversity of mods planned (competing for limited slots) and an overall sharper incline on their power should help make "best" builds hotly contested, which is the goal.

There are other cool changes to Mods coming that I will talk about when I'm confident they don't suck... all intended to increase specialization extremes and reduce how generic the Mods feel.

(Great thread btw!)

This...this...this makes me so happy! A million times yes! Specialization and diversification! I WILL LOVE YOU FOREVER!

[lamiadomina]

You people really need to pay attention to what was written, a lvl >>>>>2<<<< sword is able to kill a lvl >>>>50<<<<<< mob in pluto in 5 charge attacks top. YES that is not as strong as using guns or quicker but the sword IS LEVEL 2. At rank 30 or even 15 with good mods IT WILL kill in one charge attack which is faster than using guns.-.- However YES the close range guns such as the shotguns ARE going to produce more damage than melee weapons but in return they THEY ARE PUT ON LIMETED AMMO, which in return balances it out.

Using which mods?

You are going in with a level 2 sword. Many of us are going in with levelled melee and returning the result that no, they absolutely do not stand up to Pluto. You have a hypothesis, we have observations. You lose.

Limited ammo on shotguns is only a problem if it is too limited to finish the mission, and limiting a primary weapon to the point it isn't a primary weapon anymore makes for a terrible game. In the early game melee was a powerful strategy because it was powerful, not because it was required to save insufficient ammo reserves. The late game would be better if that remained the case.

[KGeddon]

So, I had a rather long post written, but then I had to go so I didn't get the chance to finish it. While I was AFK, I realized something that will make you very happy: I was wrong. From a balance standpoint, it is irrelevant if multishot, damage, and rate stack multiplicatively with themselves because they still stack multiplicatively with each other.

It is relevant and important to change shields (already done), crit damage, and armor to additive though as those systems are not externally multiplicative (technically, yes crit is multiplicative with damage output, but it is at such a wildly different scale that IMO it can be treated as its own entity, separate from ordinary, reliable damage).

At this point then, the only reason to change all systems to additive is sheer standardization.

I stand corrected.

Ummm, I'm gonna give you some bad news. I noted this before, but the burston has a fixed .45 second cooldown on bursts. Rate of fire enhancements give you only a small benefit by reducing the time it takes to fire your three round burst. This also applies to the Latron, as rate of fire is limited by the recoil. Multishot bypasses these limitations, as well as bloom/recovery for automatic rifles. When multi gets nerfed, you won't be able to get the same effect by using Rate mods.

Possibly DE will tie the burst cooldown to rate, and fix that issue.

Edited January 23, 2013 by KGeddon

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm assuming that they will change that for burst fire weapons and surely recoil reduction mods will come. As for accurate semi-autos, I hope that they'll make at least some of their combo mods recoil+fire rate, otherwise, yeah, it could get bad..

Edited January 23, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Rhynocerous]

Thank god, I have no idea why they mods were multiplicative in the first place. Seems like an easy mistake to avoid.

Multiplicative stats only encourage stacking the same thing over and over because instead of diminishing marginal returns, you have returns that ramp UP for eacn duplicate stat you stack. Totally kills any build diversity.

[KGeddon]

Thank god, I have no idea why they mods were multiplicative in the first place. Seems like an easy mistake to avoid.

Multiplicative stats only encourage stacking the same thing over and over because instead of diminishing marginal returns, you have returns that ramp UP for eacn duplicate stat you stack. Totally kills any build diversity.

<sigh> We've got another one.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

<sigh> We've got another one.

:( I updated the OP...

Edited January 23, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[lamiadomina]

So, I had a rather long post written, but then I had to go so I didn't get the chance to finish it. While I was AFK, I realized something that will make you very happy: I was wrong. From a balance standpoint, it is irrelevant if multishot, damage, and rate stack multiplicatively with themselves because they still stack multiplicatively with each other.

It is relevant and important to change shields (already done), crit damage, and armor to additive though as those systems are not externally multiplicative (technically, yes crit is multiplicative with damage output, but it is at such a wildly different scale that IMO it can be treated as its own entity, separate from ordinary, reliable damage).

At this point then, the only reason to change all systems to additive is sheer standardization.

I stand corrected.

I'm a little late to this one, but to peel off from my tangent about melee - I think most of this is fixable. Rate of fire is always going to have a multiplicative relationship with damage, yeah. On most setups that's mitigated by also increasing recoil. Somebody somewhere suggested mods that give both +RoF/-recoil - I think it might be more interesting if they had both those and pure +RoF with no recoil mitigation that averaged -slightly- better RoF than dual types (not too much higher, as builds that would use that kind of mod would clearly not be very worried about recoil anyway). At high levels jacking rate of fire can create negative feedback on DPS just because it reduces your magdump time and increases the influence of reload time on your sustained DPS.

Elemental damage doesn't actually need to multiply mod damage. Key it to base instead of modded, done (Treat damage on the level tree as base rather than mod for this purpose).

Multishot basically is rate of fire except with none of the drawbacks and for that reason alone, on top of creating a third multiplier on damage, it really might not have a place in this game after all. You might keep it (toned down from present numbers) for shotguns only since they seem to get the least advantage out of rate of fire. And it's a little ridiculous on guns that clearly aren't built to fire multiple projectiles anyway.

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Personally, I'm inclined to keep multishot around, but make it specific to burst rifles and shotguns and nerf its actual numerical values.

[lamiadomina]

Personally, I'm inclined to keep multishot around, but make it specific to burst rifles and shotguns and nerf its actual numerical values.

That might also work, although on the burst rifles I'm still not positive whether it feels right to make it immune to recoil and ammo consumption. But yeah, given how rate of fire works on the Burston right now it seriously does need -something-.