Movement Changes - A Healthy Discussion

[CreeChy]

Boss missions are indeed one area which would be difficult to get perfect, as i agree rushing them is a common thing, i tried to get a neural sensor last night and ran the J3 Golem 11 times and didn't get a single one, so yes after that i was rushing it and as much as i was doing so in solo mode, there are those boss missions which are not so easily done. Trying to solo Lieutenant Lech kril for instance is far from a walk in the park, these missions yes you need others to assist, and after farming them a few times you will reach a point when you need to rush the mission to get to the boss, take them down and rush to the exit.

 

The Same theory applies to alert missions, where you would have your looters trying to find everything and rushers who simply want the reward. These cases, as Majicebe said, the movement changes have not fixed this, so lets get back onto topic and brainstorm what could be useful in the process of fixing and closing the gap between rushers and looters, or separate them entirely.

 

Frankly as i said, i don't feel that the cooldown system has affected me that much, the only part that truly nags at me is the second slide after a flip,  the slide flip into slide was one of the most enjoyable movement features of this game, and in all honesty, i find myself playing alot less now that its not there.

[ImmortalWhimp]

 

Yes, boss activation should only be when all players are here. How many times i just arrive to kill like Vork/Vok/Vod ( can't recall :p ), and he's already dead :(.

But in the mean time, i think rushers shouldn't be blamed, because in the end, it's their game too ! They shouldn't be punished for playing the way they want ! ( And really, when sometimes i hear that you SHOULD play a certain way just starts me up ... ). It's a fast paced game, so people just wanting to start the action now should be rewarded in their field of competence...........................................

 

Sorry not gonna quote whole post, but I agree with you 100%. I sometimes rush a mission and it is fun sometimes so I have no objection to that tipe of gameplay.

 

May I suggest a ticking option before starting a game where you can select what type of gameplay you would like in the next mission. Like if you where our to loot you tick the loot option, if you where there to do a speed run for some quick stuff for a build then tick the speed run option. In turn the paring system should match you only with people that ticked those type of play therefore no one has the right to complain because they selected the type themselves. Maybe with a speed run you can implement a system where if you fall behind you get teleported to the rest of the pack.

[GJMDarkBoss]

Sorry not gonna quote whole post, but I agree with you 100%. I sometimes rush a mission and it is fun sometimes so I have no objection to that tipe of gameplay.

 

May I suggest a ticking option before starting a game where you can select what type of gameplay you would like in the next mission. Like if you where our to loot you tick the loot option, if you where there to do a speed run for some quick stuff for a build then tick the speed run option. In turn the paring system should match you only with people that ticked those type of play therefore no one has the right to complain because they selected the type themselves. Maybe with a speed run you can implement a system where if you fall behind you get teleported to the rest of the pack.

 

Yes i'd like that, and i think would eliminate those nasty problems we have, let rushers be rushers, because it's true that if you do the same mission over and over it's kind of boring to loot everything.

And yes a tickable option would be fine with me. This way you get teleported with the first ones if rushers ticked, and to last ones if isn't ticked.

Anyway i hope we hear from the official staff soon, because i want my crazy ninja moves ;)

 

Edit: Whoo, another crazy idea emerged in my head:

What would you say about a vote ?

Like between missions, you can vote for what's next ? Well lets put a tickable box under it, this way no private/online problems anymore, people who see rushers is winning simply disconnect from squad ?

Edited June 11, 2013 by GJMDarkBoss

[yiN_]

i don't like this change, doesn't feel natural you can't slide after 1 jump but after the second jump your character don't want to slide, just feel awckward.

 

If the problem is rusher you need to make the game more difficult, if the guy rushing alone die everytime or even just sometimes he won't rush anymore. the movement system wasn't the real issue here.

Edited June 11, 2013 by yiN_

[GJMDarkBoss]

i don't like this change, doesn't feel natural you can't slide after 1 jump but after the second jump your character don't want to slide, just feel awckward.

 

If the problem is rusher you need to make the game more difficult, if the guy rushing alone die everytime or even just sometimes he won't rush anymore. the movement system wasn't the real issue here.

Agreed, more difficult, with a teleport back to teammates.

But you know what ? Because of the lag ( the rusher has ), ennemies won't notice you, and you won't take any damage from running past them because they won't see you ...

 

Don't take me seriously below i think i'm gonna rage there ...

 

 

Anyway, just came right back from a mission .... i'm pretty angry right now, there was 1 guy that rushed the whole level, activating elevators so each time i killed the ennemies i had to call it, wait for it to come back, then activate it ....

Seriously i SO wanted to $#*(@ slap him ... he ruined my entire mission ...

 

SO my proposition :

- Stop messing with ninja moves, if so many people will feel messed up with and won't play as frequently as before ...

- Instead add a friendly fire allowance ... where hosts can disable/enable on will ... this way we kill them, END OF STORY !

 

I'm sorry for all this rant ... but this was just too much for me today ... i can't enjoy it, when i'm waiting for others, trying to act nicely and people just keep slamming doors on my nose. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by GJMDarkBoss

[biggstobacco]

Both rushing and explore/loot playstyles are legit. Players have their own reasons for preferring one over the other. And it's not that even a single player always plays just one style. Yesterday, I wanted a Neural Controller and rushed about 5 J-3 Golem missions until I finally acquired one. When I play in groups, most of the time they rush, and so I do, too, because I don't like being the guy everyone is waiting for (although that still happens because my movement skills are not all that, yet).

 

When I solo extermination missions, I take my time so I don't get killed and also like to explore. For spy, hostage, data, or artifact missions, if I want to solo them I usually rush them in order to survive and not be overwhelmed by mobs that stun you.

 

Rarely, I get a pug that isn't rushing and I enjoy that much more.

 

So you see different situations can call for different tactics from the same player.

 

During the last livestream, the devs mentioned they were discussing some kind of way to flag your playstyle so that you could be matched up with other players with the same flag. 

 

If they implement this, then I would like to see the movement cooldowns eliminated, because it's not fair to the players who really like it. 

 

A combination of style-flagging and unrestricted movement would be the most fair for everyone, in my opinion. The style-flagging would need to be able to be changed at will between missions so that players could adjust their own playstyle as they see fit for a particular mission (rushing a boss mission hoping for a particular drop, for example).

Edited June 11, 2013 by biggstobacco

[RoBlade111]

Reading over this, I see that there is cause for the evolution of the rushing play style. The RNGodds is at fault. It is a slot machine, and the faster you pull the handle, the sooner you will get what you want. There is no way to stop players who have a burning desire to get something from rushing to get more chances at it in the same amount of time. Bosses don't drop BPs as regularly as players would like, the solution for players is to rush, hit them more often and hope for the best. It is a gambling addiction, and one I've had to talk about with my wife.

 

The solution? a reworking of the reward system. If the Devs want exploration, then change the way things work. If all containers, breakables, and accessable areas in a map have been found and used, make the drop rate 100% for the boss BPs/Rare Mat. And tell the community you have made this change. 

 

Barring a change like that, there will continue to be a division between Rushers and Explorers, and gamers tagging themselves as one or the other and being placed with same distinction players can ease everyones upset.

 

Another solution is to increase the materials rewards in storage conatiners drastically, lending more reward for exploration/looting as a means of satisfying the desire to acquire, to feel like even if players did not get the BP, they got rare materials or rare mods at least.

 

Some solutions can be level based. Psmathe gets rushed 90% of the time. Its for the Control Module. The solution is simple for this one, Add a new location that actually has a pack of 8-10 Hyenas working together, like game lore says they are supposed to be. Each has a chance at a drop, just as a boss.

 

One of the other solutions is a trade in system, for things requireing rare components like the latron prime reciever, and reaper blade. A trade in section of the market, 10 of each of the other parts + 1 to 10 plat yields up the selected part. I know that I have 8 LP barrels and 6 LP stocks or so, but i could be waiting for a long time.

 

 

This rounds out the constructive part of my  post, so skip the rest of it.

 

I pilot a Frost Prime, and I explore most levels. Catching up to groups of rushers or even other faster paced looters, has become FAR more difficult  now that there is a cool down on my jump slide and wall run dash. I don't like being forced to take weapons with fast slash dashes to make up for my play style and frame choice. I do enjoy using the Fang, but I like the brutal animations of HATE and ORTHO too.  Juggling the abiltiy to keep up or catch up to another group of players, with my desire to wade into combat with heavy weapons and brutalize my enemies is an unpleasent dichotomy.

Edited June 11, 2013 by RoBlade111

[JBS_1]

I personally never used the slide "exploit", but I have noticed that movement seems less consistent. I don't understand why they went with the invisible cooldown timer when the easier fix already existed: make sliding use stamina. Jumping takes a set amount of stamina, have engaging a slide use some set amount as well. This gets rid of the infinite ubersliding and makes it finite ubersliding without messing up the rest of the feel of the game.

Edited June 11, 2013 by JBS_1

[CreeChy]

I personally never used the slide "exploit", but I have noticed that movement seems less consistent. I don't understand why they went with the invisible cooldown timer when the easier fix already existed: make sliding use stamina. Jumping takes a set amount of stamina, have engaging a slide use some set amount as well. This gets rid of the infinite ubersliding and makes it finite ubersliding without messing up the rest of the feel of the game.

 

Agreed, the sliding seems to have been the only movement aspect that slipped through the cracks of the stamina system, melee, jumps, runs, and what not all make use of it and adding the sliding to this would make it more feasible to allow the eccentric movements, the only foreseeable issue would be that stamina may run out a lot faster, which is easily dealt with by a slight buff to stamina levels across the board.

[ImmortalWhimp]

Agreed, the sliding seems to have been the only movement aspect that slipped through the cracks of the stamina system, melee, jumps, runs, and what not all make use of it and adding the sliding to this would make it more feasible to allow the eccentric movements, the only foreseeable issue would be that stamina may run out a lot faster, which is easily dealt with by a slight buff to stamina levels across the board.

I have one slight problem with the stamina implementation on a slide, if you think about it the slide effect is because of the left over momentum you get from running and going into a slide and thus no stamina can be possibly used to complete this move and that's the reason your character comes to a stop after a bit Maybe they should put in a max amount to the sequence, like say 3 complete set of slide-flip-slide thus indicating that you momentum has run out and you no longer have enough power in you to flip kick off to complete the sequence for another set.

[yiN_]

you can make the jump after a slide use stamina.

[SoanoS]

I also propose increasing/adding stamina cost for sliding.

[CreeChy]

I have one slight problem with the stamina implementation on a slide, if you think about it the slide effect is because of the left over momentum you get from running and going into a slide and thus no stamina can be possibly used to complete this move and that's the reason your character comes to a stop after a bit Maybe they should put in a max amount to the sequence, like say 3 complete set of slide-flip-slide thus indicating that you momentum has run out and you no longer have enough power in you to flip kick off to complete the sequence for another set.

 

Ok, momentum part yes that makes sense, as stated its simply an alternative to the current cooldown system people are seeming to have an issue with, personally i don't mind.

 

you can make the jump after a slide use stamina.

 

This makes more sense too, the flip is a definite excretion of energy which would make more sense to use stamina, but i don't see an issue with the current flip implementation, just the second slide after flip makes the movement feel more sluggish and not as 'ninja'. And at the end of the day this is a game, and fun=good thus removing the fun aspect of a game for a realism aspect is often not a grand decision.

[BloodEmperor]

Ok wanted to give my Opinion as a Player using kind of a hybrid playstyle

I definetly rush but kill anything in my way (if laags or bugs dont hinder me what happens often enough)

the movement nerf crippeled the tenno really bad cause some frames cant "run" 200 meters before stamina runs out....the sliding "exploit"

helped a lot and if not creating a macro or sth else u need skill to use it properly and become really "fast"

im not using those superboost melee weaps to get in front sometimes i just walk and kill all enemies cause my team is slow doing whatever

i never read any complains about my speed many were just like "oh f*ck rank 8 is really on another level" now u just cant be that fast without

those melee boosts or a fast frame

Edited June 12, 2013 by BloodEmperor

[Majicebe]

I can't be positive, because I didn't get a lot of time to play in the last 2 days, but does it feel like they tweaked it a bit to anyone else?  It doesn't feel quite as sluggish as it was a few days ago, but then maybe there's just a natural change as my Excalibur Prime levels up.  Does it seem slightly different (but still not where it should be, imo) to anyone else?

[ImmortalWhimp]

you can make the jump after a slide use stamina.

I already does do that.

[Pourvoir]

They need to add slide > jump > slide again to have the speed boost.  The biggest 2 reasons why?  Control of my character and I feel less like a space ninja.  I felt totally in control of my character and it helped the immersion quite a bit.  They removed some of the control over your warframe and that hurts.  Having control in a game is a big thing and now I just feel like I have a lot less control then I did.

[GJMDarkBoss]

They need to add slide > jump > slide again to have the speed boost.  The biggest 2 reasons why?  Control of my character and I feel less like a space ninja.  I felt totally in control of my character and it helped the immersion quite a bit.  They removed some of the control over your warframe and that hurts.  Having control in a game is a big thing and now I just feel like I have a lot less control then I did.

Yes it is very true indeed, what i noticed is that i fall downstairs/in pit a lot more ;).

 

It's weird because in fact i've now added a rush card for my frame, so i sprint faster, but i don't really use it because i tend to be around team mates so i dont sprint all times at full speed to not be ahead 10 miles of them. Which i think is not the same feeling as being able to "twist/roll/backflip" at all.

I miss it because i love dancing in the elevator to release a little bit of the "stress" of the last battle ;). linking epic wallruns, onto melee - smash charge :) All those little things to have fun with !

 

I loved being an acrobat in training ! :p

 

Anyway back to the main topic, i'd really love to see what will be done in the next updates, or actually maybe nothing if they intend to keep this cooldown.

Hell, maybe they will add it to other areas ? ( Melee, breathing ;) ) 

Edited June 12, 2013 by GJMDarkBoss

[Majicebe]

Yeah, after playing a bit I'm pretty sure they tweaked it.  I think the slide lasts longer again so you can successfully do the jump afterward more easily again.  Still preferred how it was initially and didn't really see a need to change it, but then again I'd like to believe DE has some metrics they're trying to even out.

[HEcTiKSpeeD]

I agree! I play as Volt a lot and when I use Speed I have to turn a lot to get up stairs fast. Even if you level up you Warframe speed and can glitch you out in Parkour and Glitching on the stairs.

[BloodEmperor]

I already does do that.

im pretty sure its a bug; let go of "w" while sliding and u recover stamina again

[Ryjeon]

I feel threads like this are a bit of an over-reaction. Considering that no movement capabilities were removed just how you achieved them was tweaked, and not by very much. You pretty much just need to hold one extra button at the right timing in order to chain slide jumps. I have no problem with this, though admittedly I do mis-click the maneuver on occasion. But it's just one trick in a plethora of movement increasing abilities.

 

As Majic stated above the real question is what DE has in mind when making these adjustments. Mobility balance is just as delicate as weapon and warframe balance. I've been been gravitating towards using the huuuge boost of speed which wall-jump boosting gives. But i still use virtually every maneuver which was considered "nerfed" but in a more varied and situational manner.

 

I'm still learning new nuances and timings with the movement system in this game after months and months. It's pretty much my favorite aspect and I think DE are doing a bang-up job.

[gell]

No no no, too many replies advocating stamina cost for sliding. It didn't "slip through the cracks," slide is supposed to be a way you can continue moving without using stamina.

 

It's like almost everyone doesn't understand why it's that way in the first place. Early on, DE noticed that stamina usage was bad; it sucks to run out of stamina and be slow. They added the sliding feature to allow you to maintain momentum while regaining stamina. This shouldn't be changed.

 

People seem to be derailed by what DE said was not the issue: it's not rushing. They implemented the slide cooldown because extremely fast slide jumping looked terrible. It just looked awful having the ninjas they designed to bob up and down. Makes their game look bad. They even talked about how they are fine with players who want to rush through their levels. They also mentioned how it wasn't good to have someone run past all the enemies and the enemies ran after them in a large mob; they're going to fix that. By "fix" they didn't mean they nerf things or take away more of our movement. They're probably going to make some enemies able to keep up (teleport?), or have them able to lock down doors as a last resort. DE will come up with something, and this isn't out of trust. They said they'd do it because it was identified as a problem.

 

But I'm not here to be the DE Defense Squad. I'm looking at this objectively. The problem, as this thread and many others identified, is that the slide cooldown affected some of the smoother movement. We have to look at proposed solutions and how it affects everything. Stamina cost on sliding is such a terrible idea I'm not sure anyone suggesting or agreeing about that should be trusted. That completely affects so much of the game. Players would avoid running or moving much beyond normal walking in fear of being out of stamina. It's akin to removing weak attacks from a fighting game, which tend to be used to connect combos. Without them, you'd just run out of time to perform a combo. Without sliding, you would run out of stamina so fast, you'd be able to run, slide, jump, maybe one more slide and you'd have 0 stamina. Now you must walk. This is counteractive to this thread's purpose, and anyone who likes movement in this game.

 

The better suggestions I've seen include separate cooldowns for running slides and slides after a jump, or making jump slides cost more stamina. I would suggest an increasing cooldown for jump slides that don't have breaks. DE has stated time and again how they like Left 4 Dead, and that game series (specifically L4D2) had an increasing cooldown for shoving. You could do it a few times without a cooldown at all, but the game kept track. If you did it a few times within a short amount of time, it would add a small cooldown. If you kept doing it, the cooldown would get longer, and longer, to a point where you would stop doing it manually. You had to take a breather. I think this would work for sliding, all sliding. The first 2 don't have a cooldown, but each subsequent slide within the last 5 seconds will add a small cooldown that stacks unless you just stop initiating slides for a few seconds. Notice that this also means you can hold a slide (a long hill) and you can slide as you always have. It only affects people who jump slide repeatedly.

 

And if you think this was to stop rushers, I guess you never discovered how to wall fling effectively. DE loves wall flinging.

 

TL;DR Sliding should not use stamina (as some suggested), and a stacking cooldown system would make more sense for sliding. This would allow all the ninja tricks people love, while keeping the ugly jump/slide loop from returning. Also, rushers didn't cause this, but they probably made it more noticeable.

[Majicebe]

The better suggestions I've seen include separate cooldowns for running slides and slides after a jump, or making jump slides cost more stamina. I would suggest an increasing cooldown for jump slides that don't have breaks. DE has stated time and again how they like Left 4 Dead, and that game series (specifically L4D2) had an increasing cooldown for shoving. You could do it a few times without a cooldown at all, but the game kept track. If you did it a few times within a short amount of time, it would add a small cooldown. If you kept doing it, the cooldown would get longer, and longer, to a point where you would stop doing it manually. You had to take a breather. I think this would work for sliding, all sliding. The first 2 don't have a cooldown, but each subsequent slide within the last 5 seconds will add a small cooldown that stacks unless you just stop initiating slides for a few seconds. Notice that this also means you can hold a slide (a long hill) and you can slide as you always have. It only affects people who jump slide repeatedly.

 

And if you think this was to stop rushers, I guess you never discovered how to wall fling effectively. DE loves wall flinging.

I like the limited idea -- do it a couple times before you need a "breather".  I think that would be a great compromise and not feel quite as limiting.  Wall runs/jumps are phenomenal -- wouldn't change them, except maybe make them slightly easier to perform, as sometimes it just doesn't seem to register and other times you randomly do them without trying.

[JBS_1]

We have to look at proposed solutions and how it affects everything. Stamina cost on sliding is such a terrible idea I'm not sure anyone suggesting or agreeing about that should be trusted. That completely affects so much of the game. Players would avoid running or moving much beyond normal walking in fear of being out of stamina. It's akin to removing weak attacks from a fighting game, which tend to be used to connect combos. Without them, you'd just run out of time to perform a combo. Without sliding, you would run out of stamina so fast, you'd be able to run, slide, jump, maybe one more slide and you'd have 0 stamina. Now you must walk. This is counteractive to this thread's purpose, and anyone who likes movement in this game.

 

You're saying this as though the current stamina values are locked in stone and that they wouldn't be adjusted to better work with the new mechanic (no change like this should exist in a vacuum).  The big reason I'm partial to implementing a stamina cost to initiating a slide is because the effect is transparent to the player: you see how it decreases your stamina and you can plan it's use based on the gauge.  You can't do that with any sort of hidden cooldown timer, dynamic or otherwise.

 

Of course that's not the only fix.  Here's a list of some ideas:

 

1) Increase base stamina so that an unmodded frame can sprint more than 50ft

2) Decrease cost of sprint/stamina mods to make their use more attractive

3) Decrease (or remove) the momentum boost you get from initiating a slide

4) Don't have slide attacks propel you so far forward

5) Add some kind of cooldown at the end of a slide attack

6) Add some kind of cooldown after a slide

7) Have initiating a slide require stamina

 

There's two basic types of fixes here: changing mechanics so that the slide dashing is weakened/limited/no longer works, and changing mechanics so that the alternative (sprinting) is more attractive.